Sr. Verde's: Concentrate Corner

C

chiefpuffaloe

Active Member
idk what your talking about the The 18mm drop top is bigger than 18mm v3. its been measured and measured again and it is for sure 100 percent bigger. The 14 mm i honestly dont know the exact numbers because they just came out this month but id be willing to bet they are bigger as well.

But if your comparing 14 to 14 and it is indead bigger i would love to see it

however I will show pictures tommorow of the 18 drop top vs 18 v3 and youll the drop top is bigger.



heres the exact volume measurements for you allon the 18 mm. The full nelson head is even bigger than the new 18mm Einstein head just dont have the exact measurements

V3 18mm CUP Volume - 344.1mm³
 Ti POWER™ 18mm Einstein R2 CUP Volume -617mm³
Drop top 18mm Cup Volume - 426mm³



 
Matt Rize

Matt Rize

Hashmaster
Sr. Verde said:
Thanks matt rize and research kitty for that civil discussion... I found it quite interesting to read each of your rebuttals :).
Click to expand...
I just left it, cant lead a horse so I don't try. notice he brought up being wrong a few weeks ago, sometimes you just have to drop it and let them be wrong.

good thing someone else had the time to find/post the actual info. <cough> pnwd.

chiefpuffaloe said:
there is most definitely a difference in the grade 2 titanium quality even if its ast
Im not gonna argue something i already know the truth about ive seen the numbers. Ask task for his numbers if you wont believe me.

http://asm.matweb.com/search/SpecificMaterial.asp?bassnum=MTU020


Key Words: ASTM Grade 2; UNS R50400, CP titanium, C.P. titanium alloy
[SIZE=-1]Component[/SIZE][SIZE=-1]Wt. %[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]C[/SIZE][SIZE=-1]Max 0.1[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]Fe[/SIZE][SIZE=-1]Max 0.3[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]H[/SIZE][SIZE=-1]Max 0.015[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]N[/SIZE][SIZE=-1]Max 0.03[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]O[/SIZE][SIZE=-1]Max 0.25[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]Ti[/SIZE][SIZE=-1]99.2[/SIZE]


as you can see here the composition can vary even in astm grade 2 ti check the website i linked above if you think im making it up or whatever. But do a little adding and you can see power ti has really high quality grade 2 ti. Way above the min 99.2 percent ti.

also there is 4 nubs on the ti power not three and a longer part the dips into the joint providing even more stability.

These are the facts take or leave em just though you would all want to know what imo is the best and hear the facts i have to back it up. As it stands im the only one here thats tried both the he and the drop top.


Hands down the drop top is better in stability, ti quality, heat retention, volume and price enough said. you all can decide if that makes it a "better" nail but imo the answer is clear.
Click to expand...
 
Sr. Verde

Sr. Verde

Well-Known Member
Matt Rize said:
I just left it, cant lead a horse so I don't try. good thing someone else had the time to find/post the actual info. cough pnwd.
Click to expand...

Regardless, you both made valid points that were interesting to read... so kudos to you guys for being straight shooters instead of becoming mortal enemies... which happens to some of the immature members who disagree with one another :).
 
Matt Rize

Matt Rize

Hashmaster
Sr. Verde said:
Regardless, you both made valid points that were interesting to read... so kudos to you guys for being straight shooters instead of becoming mortal enemies... which happens to some of the immature members who disagree with one another :).
Click to expand...
heh. see should've been a mod
 
S

str8sativa

Well-Known Member
researchkitty said:
I didnt evade anything. I replied that they both adhere to ASTM standards. And, by the way, your right. China and USA dont have the same standards. Thanks for the reality check. BUT -- What a surprise, none of that matters. ASTM is an International standard that all metal sellers and exporters and importers work by. If the metal isnt the standard, it isnt sold or imported.

Why do people think that China cant make the same metals as the USA? They make CDROMS in Taiwan, China, and America. They are all the same! (Why? ISO Standards!)

While I appreciate your properly rude toned reply (lol :(), at what point did I evade anything? You cant propose something, tell me to prove it, then tell me I'm "evading and deflecting" when I did properly reply WHY they are the same. YOUR evasion is where you have failed at the most critical point:

You have shown NO evidence of ANY fashion that "Chinese Grade 2 Titanium" is better or worse than "American Grade 2 Titanium". If there was evidence, there's something we can discuss. The REASON there is no evidence is that USA and China both participate in the ASTM International Standard for metal manufacturing.

Is this going to be like last time where you yelled at me and told me I was stupid for saying Butane was heavier than air, and then proved it with the correct weights and you mysteriously decided not to reply again? I'd gander not, however, I'd like to use that point to remind you that this isnt about me, or about you. Its about the facts. The facts here are that China G2Ti = USA G2Ti. Your opinion, based on no evidence other than limited real world experience, is nice, but its an opinion without any merit to it. Sorry man. :(
Click to expand...


i said that you were stupid for not believing that my friend had a seizure from the butane fume inhalation, all you did was copy and paste some numbers you found on google. and the people from the smoke shop where he got the shitty mega 5 plus butane said someone else came in and told them they had a seizure using it too im pretty sure the dirty tane was the culprit
 
Matt Rize

Matt Rize

Hashmaster
str8sativa said:
i said that you were stupid for not believing that my friend had a seizure from the butane fume inhalation, all you did was copy and paste some numbers you found on google. and the people from the smoke shop where he got the shitty mega 5 plus butane said someone else came in and told them they had a seizure using it too im pretty sure the dirty tane was the culprit
Click to expand...
dont bother. im right there with you.

Again sorry about the seizure. these kinds of things are common sense to anyone with basic knowledge of butane gas.
 
researchkitty

researchkitty

Well-Known Member
Matt Rize said:
dont bother. im right there with you.

Again sorry about the seizure. these kinds of things are common sense to anyone with basic knowledge of butane gas.
Click to expand...
All your saying is "pwned" and then quoting a metal equivilant of a Material Safety Data Sheet. The link there is simply a DESCRIPTION of what Titanium Grade 2 is. It isnt anything more. In fact, its the International Standard of Grade 2 Titanium that they are quoting.

To make you even more of silly and childish for continuing to say stupid shit like "pwned" and then you evade continually, look at the URL again -- CLOSELY:

http://asm.matweb.com/search/SpecificMaterial.asp?bassnum=MTU020

Look at the bottom, where it says:

REFERENCES:

http://asm.matweb.com/search/GetReference.asp?bassnum=MTU020

"Titanium Grade 2


Most of the data in MatWeb has been supplied directly by the manufacturers. Other data has been taken from similar materials and known relationships by the MatWeb staff. For more information about this specific material, see the following source(s):
[HR][/HR]Materials Properties Handbook: Titanium Alloys, R. Boyer, G. Welsch, and E. W. Collings, eds. ASM International, Materials Park, OH, 1994.
Structural Alloys Handbook, 1996 edition, John M. (Tim) Holt, Technical Ed; C. Y. Ho, Ed., CINDAS/Purdue University, West Lafayette, IN, 1996.

In other words -- IT ISNT A TEST OF THEIR METAL ITS THE STANDARD METAL PROPERTIES AS OUTLINED IN THE INTERNATIONAL STANDARDS. Why? Because ITS ALL THE SAME!

Fuck me, they even referenced the ASM Internationals handbook as their main source!

CONGRATULATIONS! Thats exactly my point, Grade 2 Titanium is Grade 2 Titanium. No difference. Your metal manufacturer who you "claim" to have "the real scoop" is simply giving you a website with textbook references for their metal properties.

Matt, the difference when I reply to you versus when you reply to me is that I supply facts and information, you simply quote mis-sourced and mis-guided references from people who "got em from a buddy" and "dont have the other guys data sorry" but can "pretty sure guarantee" that they are better.

If you have any *evidence* to support your position, now would be a *great* time to reply with something, rather than YOU evading and deflecting, right? =P Otherwise your silly little comical replies are just that -- silly little comical replies with no intention other than jabbing at me for having the scientific and factual evidence. Continue to troll me if you like, if that makes you feel good, I guess.
 
Matt Rize

Matt Rize

Hashmaster
dangledo said:
Click to expand...
good one. i dont even read kitty's replies anymore, just post and LOL, so it should get interesting. :)

i mean, a dude going as "kitty" hard to take that serious. then, on top of that, the inability to admit when he is wrong, its not worth a real effort. but jokes... are always good fun. still no data posted to prove otherwise.

Grade 2 Ti is just that, a grade, not an exacting specifications for every element, ie slightly different chemical compositions between chinese and US sourced Ti that I can only say I experience.

See where it says "max"... because those numbers vary. not rocket science here. those numbers add up to 99.895 or something like that.... this shouldn't be so difficult.

On top of that, chinese glass is inferior as well, and most glass artists I know here prefer US glass. thats another issue that we won't get into heh...


  • Key Words: ASTM Grade 2; UNS R50400, CP titanium, C.P. titanium alloy

    [SIZE=-1]Component[/SIZE][SIZE=-1]Wt. %[/SIZE]
    [SIZE=-1]C[/SIZE][SIZE=-1]Max 0.1[/SIZE]
    [SIZE=-1]Fe[/SIZE][SIZE=-1]Max 0.3[/SIZE]
    [SIZE=-1]H[/SIZE][SIZE=-1]Max 0.015[/SIZE]
    [SIZE=-1]N[/SIZE][SIZE=-1]Max 0.03[/SIZE]
    [SIZE=-1]O[/SIZE][SIZE=-1]Max 0.25[/SIZE]
    [SIZE=-1]Ti[/SIZE][SIZE=-1]99.2

    [/SIZE]





    ​


    ​
 
mindphuk

mindphuk

Well-Known Member
chiefpuffaloe said:
there is most definitely a difference in the grade 2 titanium quality even if its ast
Im not gonna argue something i already know the truth about ive seen the numbers. Ask task for his numbers if you wont believe me.
Click to expand...
I understand why you wouldn't want to argue something when you already believe you are right yet if you want others to accept what you already think is the truth, you must provide some sort of evidence to back up your claims.

I'm interested in this discussion but I can't help but get frustrated along with rk with the lack of evidential support for claiming Chinese grade 2 Ti is inferior. According to the standards, all grades 1-4 are commercially pure and the levels of interstitial elements affects the tensile strength of the product. Interstitial elements, by definition, do not affect the 'purity' only the properties that hey are trying to affect like strength and hardness.

Claiming that one grade 2 Ti is less quality than another grade 2 Ti because of a 0.3% weight of another element when the actual properties of the metal are the same needs more support than just pointing out there's a 0.3% difference. If you want more pure titanium, get grade 1 but it will likely be too soft and springy. If you want harder Ti, get grade 3 or 4, they are both pure but with different characteristics than grade 2. In fact, I would have no problem with someone that marketed a Ti alloy nail product. Most of the surgical implants we use are grade 23, very low interstitial elements (CNOH) but has aluminum, vanadium and iron. Oh noes, it's not pure Ti, run away.... You can't argue that the addition of iron or vanadium somehow makes grade 23 crap compared to grade 2, they are different for sure.

@Matt, I really like your posts. I have learned a lot from you about concentrates but people like me and rk who have worked in the science fields become very skeptical of unsupported claims, even if they ring true and hence the request for actual evidence. Throwing the burden of proof to support your own claim back onto rk was unfair and disingenuous. I know you might have some previous issues with him but there are others here that read these threads and so explaining why you have these beliefs could be helpful to others.
Thanks
 
Matt Rize

Matt Rize

Hashmaster
Look at the numbers. You can read graphs based on your post here.

The above specifications do not indicate "same". Lots of wiggle room there with words like "max" and the numbers not even adding up to 100%.

Claiming sameness based on these numbers is false. Insisting this falsehood to be true, based on ignorance and/or an inability to read simple graphs, is something I can't really help with.

I mean: "max"... hello! Red flag.

Add up the numbers, come on now. lol

Even the word "grade", this is pretty simple here. A grade of metal is what again? An exact specification for each element present? no... its a general specification that does not specify exact levels of secondary elements in the metal.


What else do you want to know? The actual chemical makeup of these Ti nails, including the non-Ti elements. I would like to as well. I would bet that there are atomic differences, based on the differences in source (parent) material. A little hypothesis of mine there.
 
mindphuk

mindphuk

Well-Known Member
Matt Rize said:
Look at the numbers. You can read graphs based on your post here.


The above specifications do not indicate "same". Lots of wiggle room there with words like "max" and the numbers not even adding up to 100%.

Claiming sameness based on these numbers is false. Insisting this falsehood to be true, based on ignorance and/or an inability to read simple graphs, is something I can't really help with.
Click to expand...
No one made any claims about sameness but you and chief are claiming inferior and superior. Those are the qualifications I'm interested in. As for numbers not adding to 100%, I see most charts I can find that give the requirements for grades actually say something like "balance" or "remainder" the percent Ti so I cannot speak to your uncited table.

Even the word "grade", this is pretty simple here. A grade of metal is what again? An exact specification for each element present? no... its a general specification that does not specify exact levels of secondary elements in the metal.
Click to expand...
Exact levels are unimportant. What is important when considering any contaminant is max levels. Like I said, grades 1-4 are considered commercially pure and any other elements are considered interstitial, meaning that are what gives the specific grade it's characteristics. Until you have an alloy, the interstitial elements cannot radically alter the primary element like alloys can. This is basic metallurgy. Tensile strength and hardness depend on these interstitial elements, any significant deviation from the max levels will change the grade.
What else do you want to know? The actual chemical makeup of these Ti nails, including the non-Ti elements. I would like to as well. I would bet that there are atomic differences, based on the differences in source (parent) material. A little hypothesis of mine there.
Click to expand...
I would maybe agree if we were discussing a titanium compound or an alloy but we are talking about elemental titanium metal and until recently there was only one commercial method of extracting the metal from ore (there is a newer, cheaper method that may end up reducing the cost of titanium but isn't widely used).

Like I said, I have no problem with accepting there might be a significant difference that makes Chinese Ti inferior but so far all you have demonstrated is that some Chinese Ti has different percentages of interstitial elements than some Ti refined elsewhere and that you have hunches about why. You haven't demonstrated that keeping those percentages within ASTM standards for the specific grade it is possible to even significantly affect the final product as even a little more or a little less of any of these additional elements actually give you a different grade.
 
tehgenoc1de

tehgenoc1de

Active Member
Those percentages are variable in the manufacturing process itself, I believe. Even American Grade 2 Ti probably differs company to company.
 
mindphuk

mindphuk

Well-Known Member
tehgenoc1de said:
Those percentages are variable in the manufacturing process itself, I believe. Even American Grade 2 Ti probably differs company to company.
Click to expand...
Matt Rize said:
thats all im sayin. seems like common sense. they say "trust in task" but I want to know the numbers.
Click to expand...
That's what I was saying too, which is why I require more than just someone's word that grade 2 Ti from China is inferior. Actual evidence would be nice.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top