PROOF that GOD Exists......

afrawfraw said:
I took out the rest of the quote, but what did the rest of the quote say? Just kidding? I'm not saying Atheism is a religion? You CLEARLY stated Atheism was a religion. Do you retract that statement?
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You make difintion. I make another one.
 
Heisenberg said:
If you are going to continue the conversation, the goal should be to find common ground so you can identify the point at which your views diverge.


I've come to understand that when Doer says Atheist (big A), he means science-bent fascist. I am not sure fascism would be acceptable no matter the ideology behind it, so it does seem to be a bit of a red herring. Speaking genuinely, I would be interested in seeing a specific real world example of the big A atheists.
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I believe I've discovered the discrepancy. Doer feels science is an opinion held, not a process.

If this is to be held, I have no sources to back my claims, because it's only opinion that Gravity is real. Evolution is an opinion, Etc.
 
Doer said:
That's right. And our views diverge on this point of proof. Wild emphasis does not make it proof, nor sarcasm nor belittlement.

And the false premise, that I feel attacked, if incorrect. These are charged topic and I found someone who was making fun-supported statements in a condecending and intimitating way. I challenged that. I expected the venom, but not the schoolyard bully. We just can never really be sure of the emotion maturity directions of the conversation.

The submission was made, I commented, more insults. IAC, we cannot prove or dis-prove the subject, so we can discuss it without rancor. When I see rancor, I turn to that subject.
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I fail to see where I "Bullied" you or the Venom.
 
I see you edited your statement, which I take as a retraction. Your newer version isn't any better I'm afraid. Do I have permission to use this new one? :fire:
 
afrawfraw said:
I believe I've discovered the discrepancy. Doer feels science is an opinion held, not a process.

If this is to be held, I have no sources to back my claims, because it's only opinion that Gravity is real. Evolution is an opinion, Etc.
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No to the layman, who needs proof, science is god. But, what causes gravity is not even a theory any more. We don't know. There have been many opinions proposed, challenged and they failed.

Evolution is on a bit better ground, it's a Theory. There is no such thing as scientific fact. It is all subject to constant peer review. It is only the latest evidence. No facts for the fearful. We don't have a clear definition for reality in science.

The items that stand up, like the discoveries of Maxwell and Planke, still have to withstand the detailed review of modern findings.
 
Doer said:
What do you consider to be your emotional age? 4?
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Why do you insist on attacking me? I asked you to point out my "bullying". Nothing. Where's the venom? Nothing. More attacks. You make crazy statements about a population you obviously know nothing about, and finish with Science is opinion. Yikes. And I'm 4. OK.

If I can't source science, why are we debating it's findings?

You stated religion is the default position. I successfully proved you wrong, and now your upset.

Your ignoring your own retraction. Your ignoring science, putting it in the box with opinion. Opinions can be formed for infinite reasons. Scientific standpoints are not. And the "It's a theory, not a fact" argument!? Seriously!? Who's 4? Scientific theory is waaaaaay different from standard theory definitions. A scientific theory is an observation which all parties involved can verify with accuracy. It holds up, make sense, and performs the exact same way every time. This is hardly opinion, friend.

I'm tired of answering your invented defense of me. I never called you stupid, or retarded. I stated you must be ignorant of some information for making such claims. I see now it isn't ignorance, but rejection.
 
As an example: Religion is an opinion. It is held by many people, BUT NOT ALL. If a religion appears, is put to scientific scrutiny, and proved viable. Is it still a religion, or does it become science? And if every man, women and child participated in this religion, wouldn't the word itself be obsolete? Every one would have the same beliefs, based on science. It's called secularism. You don't need to blindly do anything. If I question science, I'm welcome to do so. So indoctrination is impossible, because I can question anything at any moment. Let's just agree to disagree here. I am starting to feel like I'm beating my dead horse now.
 
The most potent example of the Cult is the Ayn Rand Institute. Objectivism itself is a cult since, as I tried to describe. it seeks to deny that ALL our information is processed into our Subjective experience, only. We then thru the confusion of survial of meat, only see the Illusion. And now it seems in Quantum speak we mold even the Objective Illusion as we go. So, Objectivism is neither afloat in religion nor science.

- take God off the Dollar
- take God out of the pledge
- take prayer out of public view
- re-write the Christmas songs
- re-write history to contain only secular references.

I could go on and on. It just take a few searches. I used. "Athiest Cult"
 
afrawfraw said:
As an example: Religion is an opinion. It is held by many people, BUT NOT ALL. If a religion appears, is put to scientific scrutiny, and proved viable. Is it still a religion, or does it become science? And if every man, women and child participated in this religion, wouldn't the word itself be obsolete? Every one would have the same beliefs, based on science. It's called secularism. You don't need to blindly do anything. If I question science, I'm welcome to do so. So indoctrination is impossible, because I can question anything at any moment. Let's just agree to disagree here. I am starting to feel like I'm beating my dead horse now.
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OK, I officially withdraw my permission to snip my words and call it context. It is not the full quote I gave permission for. So denied.

There are no facts in religion either. No facts of that stature at all in Reality. Even my experience of Self is only a fact to me. This discussion between us began with you claimed facts. I don't.
 
Doer said:
The most potent example of the Cult is the Ayn Rand Institute. Objectivism itself is a cult since, as I tried to describe. it seeks to deny that ALL our information is processed into our Subjective experience, only. We then thru the confusion of survial of meat, only see the Illusion. And now it seems in Quantum speak we mold even the Objective Illusion as we go. So, Objectivism is neither afloat in religion nor science.

- take God off the Dollar
- take God out of the pledge
- take prayer out of public view
- re-write the Christmas songs
- re-write history to contain only secular references.

I could go on and on. It just take a few searches. I used. "Athiest Cult"
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Religious Antagonist Cult is a more accurate title. Again...sigh....Atheist simply means no belief. You're attempting to group everyone who doesn't buy into a deity into one movement, order, or society. This is inaccurate. Yes, I would love to see "GOD" removed from American Society. So would the people who founded the country. They were running from religious prosecution. They wanted to ensure no ONE religion would take control of the country. We have failed them. In the 50's, we modified the currency and the pledge to include GOD. A terrible injustice imposed by controlling politicians. This statement alienates any one who doesn't "Thank God" in a country where EVERYONE is supposed to be born on the same playing field. The dream was further smeared when presidents started instructing citizens to pray. Luckily, religion is decreasing with every new generation. After all, Jersey Shore is followed more than 7.6 million viewers. Kids are seeking acceptance from society more than Gods these days. Perhaps the Illuminati are utilizing this?
 
You also have to realize that not all Atheists are Atheists. Some claim Atheism as a rebellion against their parents. Or because they were pinkied in a pew by a clergyman. Any one who is "Angry" at God or Religion, obviously believes they exist. A true Atheist see's Religion and God the same way you see the Flying Spaghetti Monster. My beef is with the logic. I do not approve of telling children not to question. VERY dangerous premise. Even a friend I have was almost dooped. A car was presented, by a man of cloth. My friend couldn't even question him because of his faith, afraid of the social and spiritual ramifications, so he called me. I inspected the vehicle. It was fine, except for the dusted clutch and cracked flywheel. My friend was astonished. I wasn't. How can such a dangerous logic be allowed? Especially in this day and age.
 
I personally do not wish to see God removed from society. I would like to see religious beliefs treated as what they are, unfounded ideas. We certainly don't want to remove all ideas that are groundless, and being groundless, there is no way to distinguish among them to decide which stay and go. They can all stay, but none can be taken seriously on their own merit.
 
Doer said:
OK, I officially withdraw my permission to snip my words and call it context. It is not the full quote I gave permission for. So denied.

There are no facts in religion either. No facts of that stature at all in Reality. Even my experience of Self is only a fact to me. This discussion between us began with you claimed facts. I don't.
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Sig withdrawn. I have proven what little I claimed. One can dance around the fact that humans are super ignorant, and so science is misguided. But it is science, and science alone which will bring us closer to understanding our universe. Not religion nor emotion.
 
afrawfraw said:
Religious Antagonist Cult is a more accurate title. Again...sigh....Atheist simply means no belief. You're attempting to group everyone who doesn't buy into a deity into one movement, order, or society. This is inaccurate. Yes, I would love to see "GOD" removed from American Society. So would the people who founded the country. They were running from religious prosecution. They wanted to ensure no ONE religion would take control of the country. We have failed them. In the 50's, we modified the currency and the pledge to include GOD. A terrible injustice imposed by controlling politicians. This statement alienates any one who doesn't "Thank God" in a country where EVERYONE is supposed to be born on the same playing field. The dream was further smeared when presidents started instructing citizens to pray. Luckily, religion is decreasing with every new generation. After all, Jersey Shore is followed more than 7.6 million viewers. Kids are seeking acceptance from society more than Gods these days. Perhaps the Illuminati are utilizing this?
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See, you just state this stuff like softballs to be knocked out of the park.

"I would love to see "GOD" removed from American Society. So would the people who founded the country. They were running from religious prosecution."

They are the ones that put God into the founding principles. "We hold These Truths to be self-evident... ....endowed by our Creator..."

Not labeling you, but this is militant Atheism, you are patterning. The Constitution protects us from that, I hope. So, re-write revisionism is a mark of cult. Not that I mean you are in the cult, but don't think I mis-understand the big picture here.

Religions are cults by definition at least they start that way. But, cults are really subversive cadres against the prevailing social order.
 
It would seem by the fact that our founders did not ban religion outright they must have envisioned some acceptable level of religious practice. Rather than restrict the existence of religion, they created conditions in which could exist as many religions as wanted; a place where religion is totally free to spread or even be invented. They made clear the necessity to keep religion in check, and I agree they would probably be unhappy with the lack of separation we see in many areas today, but I think the claim that they would want God removed from society needs a lot of support before I would accept it as more than conjecture. I've seen only evidence that they wanted God removed from politics.
 
Doer said:
The most potent example of the Cult is the Ayn Rand Institute. Objectivism itself is a cult since, as I tried to describe. it seeks to deny that ALL our information is processed into our Subjective experience, only. We then thru the confusion of survial of meat, only see the Illusion. And now it seems in Quantum speak we mold even the Objective Illusion as we go. So, Objectivism is neither afloat in religion nor science.

- take God off the Dollar
- take God out of the pledge
- take prayer out of public view
- re-write the Christmas songs
- re-write history to contain only secular references.

I could go on and on. It just take a few searches. I used. "Athiest Cult"
Click to expand...

Now what you're doing here is painting atheists with the same ideological brush. What you fail to realize, is that atheists don't have a common dogma. We aren't all required to act a certain way. The only requirement is not having a god. You can be an humanitarian, or a selfish asshole. A pacifist, or a militant revolutionary. There are no behavioral requirements.

I had always understood Ayn Rand's idea of objectivism as the beleif that perception or beleif does not change reality. For example, say you were a flat earther. You had only been presented with facts demonstrating the world as such. In your subjective reality, the world is flat. Whereas, in objective reality, the world continues to be round.
 
I think this quote demonstrates the need for objectivity.

Personal experiences are a terrible way to learn something. As human beings, we are all subject to preconceived notions, personal biases, and differing expectations; and of course any one person's personal sampling of something is, by definition, an uncontrolled, unblinded test subject to external influences and all manner of unknown variables. This is why we all know people who have reached opposite conclusions based on their experiences. They can't all be right, and that's proof enough that personal experience is an unreliable way to learn practically anything. - Brian Dunning
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Doer said:
See, you just state this stuff like softballs to be knocked out of the park.

"I would love to see "GOD" removed from American Society. So would the people who founded the country. They were running from religious prosecution."

They are the ones that put God into the founding principles. "We hold These Truths to be self-evident... ....endowed by our Creator..."

Not labeling you, but this is militant Atheism, you are patterning. The Constitution protects us from that, I hope. So, re-write revisionism is a mark of cult. Not that I mean you are in the cult, but don't think I mis-understand the big picture here.

Religions are cults by definition at least they start that way. But, cults are really subversive cadres against the prevailing social order.
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Wrong. Try again, with the REAL text. Thanks. It says, "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by THEIR Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness."

Their creator and OUR creator is a slight of hand to prove a point. Fail. My creator I define as my parents. My universe. MY creator. Possessive.
 
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