Mycorrhizae and clay pellets?

Murphio

Well-Known Member
Successful mycorrhizal colonies do wonders in soil. Their fine delicate mycelium have a lot of contact and insulation from the soil making them thrive. I've recently started growing in clay pellets as well. I've seen some products that claim to work in hydro systems, but I have been reluctant to believe they would work in the airiness of the clay pellets. Has anyone tried such mycorrhizae hydro products with success?
 

Nizza

Well-Known Member
i think you would need your resevoir to be properly aerated and at good temperatures. also you'd need to make sure u feed the microbes and ive heard molasses is no good in hydro systems. that means you need to feed them somehow without messing up your hydro system
too much temperature fluctuation will kill the microbes in the water
 

Murphio

Well-Known Member
i think you would need your resevoir to be properly aerated and at good temperatures. also you'd need to make sure u feed the microbes and ive heard molasses is no good in hydro systems. that means you need to feed them somehow without messing up your hydro system too much temperature fluctuation will kill the microbes in the water
Mycorrhizae feed on carbs transferred to them by the plant.
 

haole420

Active Member
There are endomycos and ectomycos. Most of the reading I've done indicates that only certain kinds of trees can form symbiotic relationships with ectomycos. I doubt they can survive in an aqueous environment.

Endomycos envaginate the surface of the root and eventually colonize the root cortex. These will work in hydro, but you have to let it soak in when you inoculate it. Drench with a heavily dosed mixture several times over 2-3 hours. Apply only enough to keep the roots from drying out. When you're done, rinse well before you put the plant back into the system. In a few days, you'll see the roots plump up. Endomycos arent like soil bacteria. You don't "feed"them sugars externally.

If you just dump endomycos into your res, it won't inoculate your plants very well. Most of it will settle to the bottom.

A lot of products like great white will not only contain endomycos and ectomycos, they also contain soil bacteria, which do nothing in hydro. You can pick up a endomyco only product from a garden supply store for 1/10th the price of great white.

If you want to add bacteria to hydro, go aquaponic. It's a completely self sustaining bacteria factory: nitro bacteria to digest ammonia, other microbes that digest solid organic matter and naturally produce humic acids.

Why add pond enzymes to a sterile environment when you can just run your own pond ecosystem with aquaponics that naturally produces the bacteria that produce those enzymes? enzymes aren't living things, they're just organic catalysts produced by living things to make things happen. They're also supersensitive to heat, ph, oxidation, lockout of receptor sites.

With aquaponic, you just add fish food and you've got a disease free aqueous environment teeming with beneficials and even springtails. I have bits of leaves decomposing right on top of the roots. No problem.

Haven't changed my res or added h202 in twelve weeks now.
 

Heisenberg

Well-Known Member
Mycos only germinate when they make contact with roots, therefore no mycos live on the clay pellets. AFAIK hydro roots will only support one type of endo, glomus. The only use for bennies in a synthetic hydro unit is to displace harmful microbes.
 

Murphio

Well-Known Member
Mycos only germinate when they make contact with roots, therefore no mycos live on the clay pellets. AFAIK hydro roots will only support one type of endo, glomus. The only use for bennies in a synthetic hydro unit is to displace harmful microbes.
They form a mutualistic relationship with the roots, basically an extension of the roots. They both benefit from each other, the fungi receives sugars transferred to them from within the plant (mainly from the leaves), and the plants benefit from the extra nutrient abs
 

Murphio

Well-Known Member
Oops accidentally sent it.
...extra nutrient absorption. My concern is that the delicate mycelium (the hair like hyphae) will not be able to survive in the arid clay pellets, soil is the natural environment for mycorrhizae fungi. It just seems like it would be difficult to have a successful myco collony in hydro...?
 

Murphio

Well-Known Member
There are endomycos and ectomycos. Most of the reading I've done indicates that only certain kinds of trees can form symbiotic relationships with ectomycos. I doubt they can survive in an aqueous environment.

Endomycos envaginate the surface of the root and eventually colonize the root cortex. These will work in hydro, but you have to let it soak in when you inoculate it. Drench with a heavily dosed mixture several times over 2-3 hours. Apply only enough to keep the roots from drying out. When you're done, rinse well before you put the plant back into the system. In a few days, you'll see the roots plump up. Endomycos arent like soil bacteria. You don't "feed"them sugars externally.

If you just dump endomycos into your res, it won't inoculate your plants very well. Most of it will settle to the bottom.

A lot of products like great white will not only contain endomycos and ectomycos, they also contain soil bacteria, which do nothing in hydro. You can pick up a endomyco only product from a garden supply store for 1/10th the price of great white.

If you want to add bacteria to hydro, go aquaponic. It's a completely self sustaining bacteria factory: nitro bacteria to digest ammonia, other microbes that digest solid organic matter and naturally produce humic acids.

Why add pond enzymes to a sterile environment when you can just run your own pond ecosystem with aquaponics that naturally produces the bacteria that produce those enzymes? enzymes aren't living things, they're just organic catalysts produced by living things to make things happen. They're also supersensitive to heat, ph, oxidation, lockout of receptor sites.

With aquaponic, you just add fish food and you've got a disease free aqueous environment teeming with beneficials and even springtails. I have bits of leaves decomposing right on top of the roots. No problem.

Haven't changed my res or added h202 in twelve weeks now.
Good info haole, so you just have to feed your fish, and in turn they provide for your plants?
 

haole420

Active Member
Not quite. you can clone and veg all day long with pure aquaponics, but for any kind of fruiting or flowering, you need to add nutes, either synthetic, organic, or by integrating vermiponics. As far as the nitro bacteria, all you have to do is feed the fish and they will provide all the probiotics you'll ever need to prevent root rot and slime. I know of no other way to run a hydro system without res changes, h2o2, or bennies and not have to worry about root diseases. I still use emdomycos to beef up the roots. And to clarify, they live inside the root, not outside. They cannot survive in soil. That's why they're called "endo" mycos.
 

Murphio

Well-Known Member
Not quite. you can clone and veg all day long with pure aquaponics, but for any kind of fruiting or flowering, you need to add nutes, either synthetic, organic, or by integrating vermiponics. As far as the nitro bacteria, all you have to do is feed the fish and they will provide all the probiotics you'll ever need to prevent root rot and slime. I know of no other way to run a hydro system without res changes, h2o2, or bennies and not have to worry about root diseases. I still use emdomycos to beef up the roots. And to clarify, they live inside the root, not outside. They cannot survive in soil. That's why they're called "endo" mycos.
Why would endomyco not survive in soil?

Can ectomyco survive in clay pellets?
 

haole420

Active Member
http://www.beneficialbiologics.com/index.php?option=com_virtuemart&page=shop.product_details&product_id=3&textad_id=5&aff_id=16&vmcchk=1&Itemid=21
i saw this product. I currently run dyna gro. would i have to change nutes+ feed this bacteria somehow? and if so, how?? Im very interested in this endomycorrhizal stuff is that product overkill? thanks!
I am also doing clay pebbles
1. i think it's overpriced
2. ectomycos don't form symbiotic relationships with cannabis roots, as far as i know
3. bacteria would be useful in soil but not hydro, as they are not aquatic species
4. the glomus endomycos can be found for MUCH cheaper from websites or garden supply stores, especially ones that supply commercial organic growers. it's not a "secret" known only to pot growers. just google "micronized endomycorrhizae" and buy that shit by the pound. put it on your lawn, your garden, and your grow!
5. trichoderma sounds good according to wiki, but i don't know enough about it to comment knowledgeably on it right now. the main thing would be to find out if it can survive in an aqueous environment.
 

Heisenberg

Well-Known Member
Tricoderma will indeed thrive in water, as will bacillus bacteria. Endomycos will germinate and grow but will not fruit in water.

Since the only real reason to use bennies in hydro is to displace disease, it doesn't matter if the tricoderma takes over. We never feed microbes in a hydro system, but rather just replace them by making a tea and adding once or twice a week. If you try to feed the bennies directly in the res then you will probably end up with a slimy mess.

http://www.fungi.com/product-detail/product/mycogrow-soluble-1-oz.html
 

haole420

Active Member
Tricoderma will indeed thrive in water, as will bacillus bacteria. Endomycos will germinate and grow but will not fruit in water.

Since the only real reason to use bennies in hydro is to displace disease, it doesn't matter if the tricoderma takes over. We never feed microbes in a hydro system, but rather just replace them by making a tea and adding once or twice a week. If you try to feed the bennies directly in the res then you will probably end up with a slimy mess.

http://www.fungi.com/product-detail/product/mycogrow-soluble-1-oz.html
That's why i now run aquaponics. Feed the fish, fish feed the nitro bacteria, nitro bacteria displaces pathogens and feeds the plants. Haven't done a res change in almost 14weeks. No peroxide, no added bennies, no fuss. I have decaying bits of leaves in the system, sometimes right on the roots. No problem.

Also, im pretty sure endomycos live inside the root, so whether the roots are in water or soil is moot. that's why they're called endo: endo = inside, ecto = outside. Its a matter of getting endos in contact with surface of roots long enough for them to penetrate the root and eventually settle in the root cortex at the very center of the root. Endos outside the root do not feed the plant nor do they displace any pathogens.

Merely circulating endos in an agitated hydro system isn't going to do much . Most of it will just settle to the bottom of the res. some of it will "stick" but the coverage will be spotty. Roots will be inoculated unevenly And sparsely.

according to the instructions for the commercial endo-only product i use, you mix with water to apply, but it says to use the mixture within 24hrs. I'm guessing because endo spores just can't survive in water for prolonged periods of time.

so far, removing the plants from the system (one or a few at a time) and drenching the solution several times over several hours seems like the must surefire way to inoculate the roots with very even coverage.

And while my root veggies only required one dose of endos, plants like weed need to have new root growth inoculated again since the endos aren't very mobile within the plant.
 

Heisenberg

Well-Known Member
That's why i now run aquaponics. Feed the fish, fish feed the nitro bacteria, nitro bacteria displaces pathogens and feeds the plants. Haven't done a res change in almost 14weeks. No peroxide, no added bennies, no fuss. I have decaying bits of leaves in the system, sometimes right on the roots. No problem.
Very interesting. I plan to learn more about aquaponics.

Also, im pretty sure endomycos live inside the root, so whether the roots are in water or soil is moot. that's why they're called endo: endo = inside, ecto = outside. Its a matter of getting endos in contact with surface of roots long enough for them to penetrate the root and eventually settle in the root cortex at the very center of the root. Endos outside the root do not feed the plant nor do they displace any pathogens.
True, endos do not germinate until they make contact with roots, whether they are in soil or water. My research has led me to believe that mycos will germinate on roots in a hydro system and colonize, yet will not fruit and multiply.

Merely circulating endos in an agitated hydro system isn't going to do much . Most of it will just settle to the bottom of the res. some of it will "stick" but the coverage will be spotty. Roots will be inoculated unevenly And sparsely.
This is why I recommend brewing a tea and adding it periodically to reinoculate, being sure to pour some over the root crown. I find it's best to activate and diversify the microbes outside of the res.

according to the instructions for the commercial endo-only product i use, you mix with water to apply, but it says to use the mixture within 24hrs. I'm guessing because endo spores just can't survive in water for prolonged periods of time.
This is consistent with my experience. I brew my tea for 48 hours, and find it works a little better if I add mycos at the end of the brew, about two hours from finish. This gives the spores a chance to soften up and primes them for germination. I add the other bennies at the beginning of course.
 
An's carbo load and bud candy are the common answer i keep getting in regards as what to feed my great white mycos, but thats comn from my hydro store guy and he charges 50 bucks for a liter of crap i can get for 25 on ebay, heard bud candy gives u a fake taste tho, just things ive heard on my travels and journy into dwc. Forgive me if im incorrect, the hydro store likes to upsell things on me!
 

haole420

Active Member
An's carbo load and bud candy are the common answer i keep getting in regards as what to feed my great white mycos, but thats comn from my hydro store guy and he charges 50 bucks for a liter of crap i can get for 25 on ebay, heard bud candy gives u a fake taste tho, just things ive heard on my travels and journy into dwc. Forgive me if im incorrect, the hydro store likes to upsell things on me!
The mycos will probably eat any carbs you throw at it. After all, the plant feeds it sugars produced through photosynthesis. But just because the mycos are eating more sugar doesn't necessarily mean they're going to absorb nutrients for the plant any quicker. Who knows? Maybe it does, but even so, there's got to be a hard limit where the benefit levels off. And I'd imagine the plant isalready saturated with plenty of sugar, so I'm not sure how much a carb-loaded additive is going to do. Don't take my word for it, though.
 
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