Astir Grow Led Panel Project...

[weedman420gr]

nice work weedman.. well done. your Nl is growing fine.

I was looking for you Auto Master

I have questions..

About what week is she going to stop growing tall ? ( in 1-2 weeks ?)

I'm concerned that im not going to be able to fit it in there...

 

[Bumping Spheda]

Cycloptics would be a better choice for mixing chamber design.
That is if we are going to dream!!

Wouldn't the phosphor lens have to be huge then?

 

[stardustsailor]

Wouldn't the phosphor lens have to be huge then?

Nop...Just a flat & thin (~1 mm ) polycarbonate screen ,approx 200 x 160 mm in size (for Astir panels ... )
At Digikey , Intematix screens with size of 305 x 215 mm (Almost two screens ... ) they cost from 22$ to 38$...
http://www.digikey.gr/search/en/Optoelectronics/Optics-Remote-Phosphor/4407?pageNumber=9&keywords=intematix+
I speculated 50$ for the custom one ... (Much more red phosphor in the mix => higher retail price <= Custom order few pcs....)

BTW ,Cycloptics can possibly provide an alternative high-end ,mixing chamber ,solution ....
Thanx ,10-30 ...

 

[stardustsailor]

Check these out :
spinoff.nasa.gov/Spinoff2010/cg_1.html

And then :

http://www.orbitec.com/store/led_light_bars.html

http://www.greendesignbriefs.com/component/content/article/8483

http://www.giiresearch.com/report/sne256427-led-lighting-key-patent-analysis-remote-phosphor.html

http://www.robaid.com/tech/nanosys-nanotechnology-improves-ordinary-led-lighting.htm

The proposed Phase I research program will initiate a demonstration of new high-brightness, blue-light-emitting diodes (LED) required for effective plant growth on the Space Shuttle. Without a source of blue photons, dicotyledonous plants develop excessive hypocotyl elongation when illuminated solely by the red LED lamps now available as a photosynthetic radiation source for NASA. Filmsof indium-gallium-nitride (InGaN), the basis for bright-blue LEDs, will be grown by plasma-assisted metalorganic chemical vapor deposition (PA-MOCVD) and doped p-type by ion implantation. Use of a plasma source of nitrogen eliminates the harmful effects of hydrogen on inhibiting p-type doping that always accompany growth of nitrides from ammonia; functional LEDs require a pn junction and thus p-type doping is a critical materials issue. Introducing magnesium p-type dopants by implantation further avoids inadvertently incorporating hydrogen from organic-Mg doping sources. Phase I will establish conditions for materials deposition and p- type doping of InGaN, including an annealing schedule; preliminary assessment of the role of blue GaN LEDs on plant growth will be carried out by the Botany Department of the University of Wisconsin. Optimization of blue LED performance will be undertaken in Phase II. Here we shall extend the work to create a tandem red/blue InN/GaN LED which can emit all of the photons needed by plants raised in space. Grown as a large area film on a totally transparent substrate, this light-source approach will avoid the costly assembly of tiny LED dice. Because alloys of the III-V nitrides span the entire visible spectrum, they can be used in many commercial applications including full color displays for HDTV; indicator lights and alpha- numeric displays; free space communications (including optical interconnects in computers), and high density optical data storage, including advanced bar code readers.

http://sbir.gsfc.nasa.gov/SBIR/abstracts/94/sbir/phase1/SBIR-94-1-12.04-6000.html


More : http://www.science.gov/scigov/result-list/fullRecord:plant+growth+led+/#ResultList=0|0|_|RANK|0

 

[stardustsailor]

[h=3]Abstract[/h] Phosphor converted white LEDs are becoming more and more attractive for general lighting applications because of the steadily increasing luminous efficacy numbers reported by LED-suppliers. Despite these high numbers, a further significant improvement step can be made when a low-to-medium brightness (<500 kCd/m[SUP]2[/SUP]) source is acceptable. The wall plug efficiency of a blue LED is generally better than that of a conventional white LED made from the same die. To take full advantage of this, we have developed medium-brightness LED-modules (~150 kCd/m[SUP]2[/SUP]) for general lighting in which the phosphor is applied remote from the blue LEDs. By direct comparison with modules in which conventional high power white LEDs with almost identical dies are applied, we have shown that on system level the remote phosphor modules can have up to 50% better efficacy. Using a downlight module as a carrier, we have shown that in the relevant color temperature range of 2700 to 4000K a high CRI (>80) can be obtained in combination with a high luminous efficacy, while the optical efficiency of the module can be over 85%. A module efficacy of over 100 lm/W at 4000K with CRI 80 seems to be within reach, with a long-term expectation of over 180 lm/W. The remote phosphor LED modules deliver well homogenized white light with a Lambertian radiation profile. They are ideal for general illumination, as they combine glare reduction with high system efficacy and enable high optical efficiencies of the luminaries. The RP modules enable forward compatibility by well defined interfaces and optical properties that are decoupled from the actual performance, form factor and number of LEDs in the module. The Philips Fortimo downlight system is based on this remote phosphor concept, featuring forward compatibility and a total system efficacy (including driver) of over 60 lm/W under operating conditions using currently available Luxeon Rebel emitters.

http://adsabs.harvard.edu/abs/2008SPIE.7058E..12H

 

[PetFlora]

Wow, seems impossible to develop panels when the bulls-eye is moving so fast.

That nano link is the shits.

I believe I c/p info early on about NW covering the majority of what mj likes, it's why I have been playing with screw bulb leds. Chinabuye is a bust. Have some issues (pulsing on a 5 @ 1w bulb) same issue with a led desk lamp. Contacted them but they dance around replacing. In the meantime, Lowes/HD shelves are filling with newer led bulbs. Alas the newer SM are one chip diodes

Last week I bought a 60w equiv 5000K (850lm) EcoSmart for $22. It almost doubled the light over my clone tray, which has several 450 lm (NW/WW) + the Philips RP (~ 3500K).

Finally getting new growth on 3/5 clones. To be fair, the ufo fell (bad plastic hangers) right on top of all 5, so they were severely shocked and some damaged- one maybe beyond recovery.

 

[psynobi]

I was looking for you Auto Master

I have questions..

About what week is she going to stop growing tall ? ( in 1-2 weeks ?)

I'm concerned that im not going to be able to fit it in there...

the vertical growth usually stops beetween 5th-7th week...

 

[PetFlora]

And who might that be,please ?
( I don't go outside "home" ,very often you see....)

I have been reviewing your thread in search of whether I c/p his valuable info. Will do so now. which will also bring it closer to present awareness

https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=229278&page=5

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phaeton UVB and near infrared are used for non chlorophyll purposes on healthy well lit plants.

Es verdad, amigo. And the best, most economical sources of IR for most growers are still simple, good ol' halogen lights, and Reptisun fluoros for UV-B, at present. (the dangers - and potential litigious nightmare - of incorporating expensive UV-B LEDs into a fixture notwithstanding)

Besides, without complete, independent control of the latter two (i.e. independent of the activity and photoperiod of the 'main' LED fixture), the grower's control over their desired photomorphological changes becomes rather tenuous at best.

If one is going to go that route, then both UV- and high-intensity, blue-mediated light damage (since that is what it is) should be adjustable - both in intensity, as well as photoperiodicity and duration.

As the higher-energy end of the spectrum isn't really a 'finishing/maturing' as much as it is a degradation (i.e. blue and UV pass through clear trichomes just fine; it's only when they become cloudy that they show any significant absorption of that energy, and quickly turn from cloudy to amber - at which point one should watch 'em like a hawk to keep your product from degrading too soon and ruining the desired effect), it should always be incorporated judiciously at first, and in small doses - until the effect on that particular cut is well-established, after which it can then be predicted with a 'fair' level of accuracy.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phaeton The spectrum of light the plant uses efficiently changes with the intensity. At low light levels red is used most then blue, just like the chlorophyl charts. As the light gets brighter more blue is used, and more. The break point is reached about 50% of max leaf capacity then green starts coming on. As the intensity continues up red and blue remain steady but green use continues to grow until at maximum it is almost half of all the light energy being used.

This is one reason why, even with the rather shitty, lopsided spectrum produced by HPS, one can still get good results with them:

(Shown: Eye Hortilux HPS vs. Photosynthetic Absorption Spectra Curve)

I'm glad we've finally gotten some good studies on green light over the past several years, as has been mentioned previously (link) by a few of us.

While 'every lumen (or rather, PPFD) is sacred', I'm of the camp that would prefer a higher level of (adjustable) full-intensity, multi-spectrum (i.e. 'white') light incorporated into the main fixture, for that very reason.

And with the recent increases in the efficiency of neutral whites, there's no reason why you can't get perfectly good results with just a two-channel, adjustable led fixture (neutral white, and red), supplementing with the aforementioned only as needed.

For reference, here are the LUXEON (Rebel) Neutral White and CREE (XP-E) Whites - relative spectral distribution:

This image has been resized. Click this bar to view the full image. The original image is sized 801x530.

Now, let's look at all of them superimposed over the PRC:

(note: neutral white I called 'normal white' here for some reason. Wonder what I was smokin' at the time...<whistles>)

As one can see, the CREE Neutral White (I call it 'Goldilocks', because it's almost 'just right'

) has a RSPD that still allows nearly ~25% of its total power in the blue range (and plants only really 'need' ~8-10%), and more that 1/3 of which (i.e. the area under the curve) is over ~580nm or so (which has a Photosynthetic RS of over 90%!) - which is much better than even your typical 'Enhanced HPS'.

 

[staf82]

SDS I'm really impressed with your light and seeing it has made me want to make my own diy led lihave ordered my leds but have no idea about the size of heatsink needed? How big is yours? I'm planning on having 16 leds on each one all running at 700ma and was hoping you would be able to assist me on working out the size needed many thanx

 

[stardustsailor]

Figure 1.9 Leaves absorb visible light very effectively (>90% for all wavelengths combined; solid curve).Wavelengths corresponding to green light are absorbed less effectively (absorptance drops to c. 0.75=>big deal ....Plants absorb green photons .). Beyond 700 nm (infrared band) absorptance drops to near zero, and forestalls leaf heating from this source of energy. Quantum yield is referenced to values obtained in red light (600-625 nm), which is most effective in driving photosynthesis, requiring about 10 quanta per CO[SUB]2[/SUB] assimilated (based on high-precision leaf gas exchange) compared with about 12 quanta at the blue peak (450 nm). Quantum yield shows a bimodal response to wavelength. Absorptance drops beyond 700 nm but quantum yield drops off even faster because PSII (responsible for O[SUB]2[/SUB] generation) absorbs around 680 nm and cannot use quanta at longer wavelengths in this measuring system. UV wavelengths (below 400 nm) are capable of driving photosynthesis, but as a protective adaptation vascular plants accumulate a chemical &#8216;sunscreen&#8217;* in response to UV exposure.

Field-grown plants are especially rich in these substances so that absorbed UV is dissipated harmlessly, lowering quantum yield compared with growth-chamber plants. (Based on McCree 1972)

(=> plants in greenhouses(UV filtered ...) ,or under artificial light without UV ,produce more biomasss per Watt of light ...
But are of less quality .....chemical &#8216;sunscreen&#8217;*=> trichomes and / or THC )


http://plantsinaction.science.uq.edu.au/edition1/?q=content/1-2-2-chlorophyll-absorption-and-photosynthetic-action-spectra



As one can notice from the above scheme ....
.....
Plants use more efficiently ( higher RQE ) reds ,which are less absorbed (600-630 nm )
and absorb more (reds ) at wavelengths that are not so efficiently used for driving photosynthesis (630~680 nm )...

....???

Weird ?
No ...
This way the use ,almost the same "quanta " ,for almost for the whole red band ( 600-699 nm ) ...
Now ..
Why this is happening ?

Oh...Millions of years of evolution under the Sun ,
have to be explained and understood ,to be able to answer fully to that question ,probably ....

For sure has something to do with the Red wls "analogies" in sunlight ...
And how these "analogies " are used by the plants ...
Not only for driving PS ..
But for photomorphogenesis ,circadian rythms ,ect ....
...
Complicated enough ...As it is ....

Red leds ?
Well ,probably they are all fine for driving PS ..From ambers (600 ) to deep reds (670-680 ) ...
Thing is that they are pretty old tech as leds ...
They do not blend good ,being "monochromatic "..
They are temp( Tj ) sensitive ,enough ....
...
And probably they stress, the plant to adapt to their " rich but poor-many red photons ,but just them ..reds ...Where's the others ? " light ....

Can they produce ?
Of course they can ..Everybody has seen it ...

But ,probably ,there are better ways by now ,to introduce the whole red band -and not just that -without the need of many different reds
( 600-620/630-640-650/660-670/680 -730/750 ....)
See blue dies and red /orange /yellow /green phosphors ....
For added overall efficiency ,light homogeneity and fixture longetivity ,make the phosphors ... remote ....
So...
....

Chlorophylls are readily extracted from (soft) leaves into organic solvent and separated chromatographically into constituent types, most notably chlorophyll a (Chl a) and chlorophyll b (Chl b). These two chemical variants of chlorophyll are universal constituents of wild vascular plants and express highly characteristic absorption spectra (Figure 1.. Both chlorophylls show absorption maxima at wavelengths corresponding to blue and red, but chlorophyll assay in crude extracts, which inevitably contain carotenoids as well, is routinely based on absorption maxima in red light to avoid overlap with these accessory pigments that show strong absorption below 500 nm. Absorption maxima at 659 and 642 for Chl a and Chl b respectively would thus serve for assay in diethylether, but these peaks will shift slightly according to solvent system, and such shifts must be taken into account for precise measurement (see Porra et al. 1989 for details).


Chl a and Chl b differ with respect to both role and relative abundance in higher plants. Chl a/b ratios commonly range from 3.3 to 4.2 in well-nourished sun-adapted species, but can be as low as 2.2 or thereabouts in shade-adapted species grown at low light. Such variation is easily reconciled with contrasting functional roles for both Chl a and Chl b. Both forms of chlorophyll are involved in light harvesting, whereas special forms of only Chl a are linked into energy-processing centres of photosystems. In strong light, photons are abundant, consistent with a substantial capacity for energy processing by leaves (hence the higher Chl a/b ratio). In weak light, optimisation of leaf function calls for greater investment of leaf resources in light harvesting rather than energy processing. As a result the relative abundance of Chl b will increase and the Chl a/b ratio will be lower compared with that in strong light. As a further subtlety, the two photosystems of higher plant chloroplasts (discussed later) also differ in their Chl a/b ratio, and this provided Boardman and Anderson (1964) with the first clue that they had achieved a historic first in the physical separation of those two entities.

Carotenoids also participate in photosynthetic energy transduction. Photosystems have an absolute requirement for catalytic amounts of these accessory pigments, but their more substantive involvement is via dissipation of potentially harmful energy that would otherwise impact on delicate reaction centres when leaves experience excess photon irradiance (further details in Chapter 12). Carotenoids are thus regarded as &#8216;accessory&#8217; to primary pigments (chlorophylls) and in molar terms are present in mature leaves at about one-third the abundance of Chl (a + b).

Obviously, chlorophyll in leaves is not in solution but exists in a gel-like state where all pigment molecules are linked to proteins, and absorption spectra differ accordingly (see Evans and Anderson 1987). In particular, light-harvesting Chl a, b&#8211;protein complexes (LHC in Figure 1.8, lower curves) develop a secondary absorption peak at 472 nm with a shoulder at 653 nm, while the Chl a of photosystem II reaction centres shows absorption peaks at 437 and 672 nm (compared with 429 and 659(662 ? ) nm for purified Chl a in ether; Figure 1.8, upper curves).








Subtle alterations in the molecular architecture of chlorophyll molecules according to the particular protein to which they bind in either light-harvesting or energy-processing centres are responsible for these shifts in absorption peaks, and for a general broadening of absorption spectra(=>white light ? ..) (compare lower and upper curves in Figure 1.. Such effects are further accentuated within intact leaves by accessory pigments and greatly lengthened absorption pathways resulting in about 85% of visible wavelengths being absorbed (Figure 1.9). Any absorbed quanta at wavelengths below 680 nm can drive one electron through either reaction centre.

Maximum quantum yield (Figure 1.9) occurs when both reaction centres absorb equal numbers of such quanta.

When one photosystem population (PSII) absorbs more quanta than the other (PSI), excess quanta cannot be used to drive whole-chain (linear) electron flow. Quantum yield is reduced as a consequence, and leads to a slight discrepancy between in vivo absorption maxima (Figure 1. and quantum yield (Figure 1.9).

Although UV wavelengths are absorbed by leaves and would be capable of driving photosynthesis, such short wavelengths are damaging to biological systems and plants have adapted by developing a chemical sunscreen. Consequently, the quantum yield from these wavelengths drops off markedly below about 425 nm. Beyond 700 nm (infrared band) absorption drops to near zero, and forestalls leaf heating from this source of energy. However, quantum yield falls away even faster, and this &#8216;red drop&#8217;, though puzzling at first, led subsequently to a comprehensive model for photosynthetic energy transduction, outlined below.

I trust that none of the modern white leds ,no matter the manufacturer ,
no matter the color temperature (cool,neutral,warm ) ,
no matter of what else ,
none of them is good for growing plants ....
They have not been designed for that purpose ,anyway...***
But still they do the damn job ,just as fine as R/B weird combos,if not better ...
Man,common ' ,now !
They do the job at 350mA small chip,
with no concentrated light by added lenses ,
with not the best cooling outhere ,
at really low overall powers (less than 200 Watts ... )
and not with the proper mix of phosphors ......
....
(Did I mentioned ,the low quality,thus efficiency of asian leds ... ? )
...
...
Need more ?

.....
Leds and plant growth ?

Again I really trust ,that ,with the up-to-date led tech ,the best
way to utilise leds for plant growing ,is the one ,implementing phosphor materials and
leds used for excitation (as was mercury -in vapor form- used for CFL's / Fluos at general ...)

( i.e. Induction tech uses magnetic fields =>electromagnetism(same thing as light )to excitate phosphors.)....

With the new-coming tech of blue dies/leds and remote phosphors ,
led grow panel design " philosophy" might change enough...
New frontiers will be revealed ,probably ...

Still the cost ,remains the major problem of growing with leds ...
Above all others ...


Edit: ***

Abstract

It has been proved that monochromatic or compound light-emitting diode (LED) or laser diode (LD) can promote the photosynthesis of horticultural crops, but the promotion of polychromatic light like white LED is unclear.

A new type of ultra-bright white LED (LUW56843, InGaN, nullset 5 mm, 150mW, 15000 mcd, wavelength range: 400~720 nm) was selected to make up of the supplemental lighting panel (200×300 mm[SUP]2[/SUP]), on which LEDs were evenly distributed with 90 branches. Drive circuit was selected to power and adjust light intensity. System performance including temperature rise and light intensity under different currents and vertical distances were tested. Photosynthesis of sweet pepper and eggplant leaf under white LED was measured with LI-6400 to show the supplemental lighting effects. The results show that LED system can supply the maximum light intensity of 300 &#956;mol/m[SUP]2[/SUP] .s at the distance of 100 mm below the panel and the temperature rise is higher over 13 °C on the surface of LED encapsulation, but hardly changes 100 mm far away the panel. For both of the two vegetables net photosynthetic rate became faster when white LED system increased light intensity. Compared with sunlight and plant growth fluorescent lamp, white LED's promotion on photosynthesis is inferior because its spectra is unreasonable with more blue light and less red light. Therefore, the unreasonable spectra become the major constraint of its application, but the potential of white LED application into vegetable crop production is prospective.

http://adsabs.harvard.edu/abs/2007SPIE.6486E..33H

....but the potential of white LED application into vegetable crop production is prospective.


In what way ?
But of course by changing the more blue light and less red light ,into more red light and less blue ...

( That's why ,actually Warm White leds ,are the best ,at the moment,for plant growth .... <=my opinion ...
Knna supported the opposite...

If I remember correctly ...

Things were different then....Today's WW leds ,have really a high CRI ...

Old tech used a heavy load of broad-peak yellow YAG - Yttrium/Alum garnet - phosphor ,to achieve warm white light ..
-Along with a 455-465 nm chip- Blue + Yellow wls => white light
So efficiency was decreased by the large amount of phosphor used ...
(had to be a lot of phosphor in order to minimise blue light passing through ...So for the output light to be "warmer " ... )
And CRI wasn't that good ..Reds didn't appear correctly regarding their hues ...
Not much of red light to be reflected ,thus wrong hues ....

Today's WW led tech ,utilise a red nitride phosphor and a green aluminate/silicate phosphor mix ,to achieve warm white light ....
Blue + green +red =white light...............
(green+red =yellow...yellow+blue=white ... http://www.orbitec.com/sunbow.html
Have the sliders......... Blue 450 :1.5-2 Rel.Power - Green 520 : 3 Rel.Power - Red 640 : 10 Rel.Power .......
& FR : 1 - UV :1,if you want them ... ..

More for the actual lamp : http://www.orbitec.com/store/sunbow.html

That's about the right color ,a led plant growth light should have ........
Deep orange ....Not purple ,violet ,or magenta ...)



Spectral curve is much " smoother " from blue to red and there's much more red light ,than before ...Greater CRI ..
Oslons SSLs are great example ....)

Now...Forget white leds ....
Or even , the possible " special plant growth dedicated white-or pinkish- leds " (more orange/red ,less blue /green )...

Let's think for a moment ...
"Special White light emitting screens ,for plant growth..."
Rectangular ,circular ,long rows ,square ,above,sideways,here,there ....

That seems really , a rather appealing way to use leds ,in order to achieve great yields ..(Quality & Quantity ...)

But,not a cheap one ....

 

[PetFlora]

I offer you (in my mind's eye) a Fiat, a lessor version of your Ferrari

An arching rail, with 3 panels (think balance beam trapeze artist). Arching, as in curved rail, where rail section is from a much larger circle. Distance from TDC to lowest point ~ 6"/15cm (Probable length ~ 24"/ 60cm). Would this allow 3 panels to do the work of 5+?

Not quite this simple as how to move it back & forth without falling off... I'm thinking 4 wheels above and below to secure. Of course physical stops on each end of the arc

May still be a Ferrari, but a Dino

 

[stardustsailor]

I offer you (in my mind's eye) a Fiat, a lessor version of your Ferrari

An arching rail, with 3 panels (think balance beam trapeze artist). Arching, as in curved rail, where rail section is from a much larger circle. Distance from TDC to lowest point ~ 6"/15cm (Probable length ~ 24"/ 60cm). Would this allow 3 panels to do the work of 5+?

Not quite this simple as how to move it back & forth without falling off... I'm thinking 4 wheels above and below to secure. Of course physical stops on each end of the arc

May still be a Ferrari, but a Dino

Pet,right now I'm so stoned by the led-grown, half-dryed, herb of mine ,that I've to ask for a ...drawing of that ....
Sounds interesting ....

 

[stardustsailor]

SDS I'm really impressed with your light and seeing it has made me want to make my own diy led lihave ordered my leds but have no idea about the size of heatsink needed? How big is yours? I'm planning on having 16 leds on each one all running at 700ma and was hoping you would be able to assist me on working out the size needed many thanx

16 at @700mA ?
you need a large heatsink there if it is passive ....(no fans )
Approx 150 cm^2 of plain (non-anodised ) soft alum ,for every Watt of heat ...
If you add fans ,you can escape ,with much smaller heatsink area (thus size ) ...

Ours is 200 x 160 x 50 mm .
With 10 mm base thickness and 16 fins (200mm long x 40 mm ' tall ') .
Weight : 1990 grams (~4 lb ) .
Material : Raw extruded A 6061 AA .

Just adequate enough ,to offer passive cooling to 20 Watts of heat ..(approx )

 

[weedman420gr]

SDS i work on a schedule of yours (from the 420.gr)...

I see that you use polysorbate 20... can i use poly 80 instead ? (easier to find)

 

[PetFlora]

Pet,right now I'm so stoned by the led-grown, half-dryed, herb of mine ,that I've to ask for a ...drawing of that ....
Sounds interesting ....

Sorry, not trained with any drawing software.

I'll try to paint a better mental picture

Imagine a trapeze artist on a high wire holding a long balancing pole. The pole gently curves down under its own weight

The artist = the top panel

Near each end of the balance pole is another panel (total 3 panels). The outrigger panels could be adjustable along the pole to accommodate various plant widths.

Instead of the high wire being horizontal, it is light weight tubular metal shaped as a downward sloping curve (~ 6"/20cm from TDC - top dead center).This can be one hollow extrusion but curved on one end so as to return to the beginning, creating parallel rails. That joint could be joined with a 90* plastic barbed fitting for strength

The outrigger panels should face ~ 45*s below horizontal aiming at the plant. Each side panel should light ~ .5m-1^2 area of the lower branches as they rotate

The wheel + motor mechanism might be complex, or not. Not moving much mass, so motor can be small

Wheels would be concave to wrap around the rails half way (above and below). I think electric trains have similarly pulley mechanics to follow the elec wires above the cars

OR make it so that the motor is on top of canopy. No rail. Panel with outriggers rotates ~ 300*s

My head hurts from trying to better explain

 

[stardustsailor]

You 've to be careful with that shit ..
It can destroy your crop in dt time ....
Ask Agios about Tween 80 (polysorbate 80 aka Polyoxyethylene (20) sorbitan monooleate..
I think it is stronger in its " surfacant effects " than Tween 20 ...
I think ...
Maybe I'm wrong ...


I use Poly only for a week ...At "cleansing " stage ....
at 20-50 ppm ,every day ,with 15% leakage at least ....
Then a week with plain water and on to harvest ....

Take care with that ...

It's a kind of a gentle( not so bioactive ) detergent ....

Only growers that utilise solid / liquid organic nutrients on coco / peat substrates ,
should use polysorbates more oftenly ...
(to avoid the hydrophobic bondage "orgy " ,between organic nutrients and organic substrates_like fat with organic plastic tupperware_,
which are giving birth to root clogging...).
_....F#(K...I should write a book.... -

....

 

[weedman420gr]

You bet you should write something beggining from the "Memoirs of a Salor"

I'll search more on the tween 20,80 subject...

Just now ,it came to my mind that i dont think i can even imagine/assume the quality of the herb growing under the Astir panels...

Think its going to be surprisingly exquisite...

SDS, dont you think that weed under these panels could be considered to have medical bud quality ?

 

[PetFlora]

Next Panel Layout. There's always a next panel, right?

I brought this up before, seems time is right to reintroduce...

Merkaba shape is said to be Sacred Geometry. It looks like 2 equilateral 3 sided triangles one overlaying the other, one turned 180*s, making a 6 pointed star.

As a flat 2D picture it has 12 points/diodes per panel. Perhaps one more (lucky 13) smack dab in the center. It might amplify the rest; possibly a crystal to oscillate. Could the increased cosmic energy be a 22w equivalent? That would be awesome
Wear panels (Blinking BLING) around our neck hooked to a 9 volt battery. Good party conversation piece that might lead to another kind of piece

 

[picolada]

Hola growers and friends,

Day 34 today...she's becoming a monster...

Had to LST all of her again today (hope for the last time)



Also,i lowered the pot for better air circulation and more free space!

Here are some pictures(i think flower has started some days ago!! Lets see!)

Enjoy...!

*Last picture is last year's Nirvana auto NL under 70watt HPS at Day 32
**&#952;&#945; &#947;&#953;&#957;&#949;&#953; &#964;&#951;&#962; &#954;&#959;&#955;&#945;&#963;&#949;&#969;&#962;

nice job there my friend but i suggest you not to use wire for your lst,it could
hurt your plant as it grows..
keep on!!

 

[weedman420gr]

nice job there my friend but i suggest you not to use wire for your lst,it could
hurt your plant as it grows..
keep on!!

Thanks pico!

Dont worry about the wire!I make the one tip like a "U" shape so she can grow as thick as she wants...