subs supersoil

[Kalyx]

Danks guys. I am referring back to the silica question. Protekt and all other liquid silicas are full synth molecules yet many organic "purists", even Matt Rize and other uber snobs use the liquid silicas on their plants and still hype them as organic or veganic. I fully understand that these definitions are subjective for each gardener, but to me synth products are out period. The woods do not use any synth so neither do I.

IMO organic is like pregnant, you either are or aren't.

Protekt = plants Aren't fully organic. Some call it Nazi organic when I explain the lengths of my definition of organic meds.

My last favorite use of said liquid silicas was as an emulsifier. Snafu prefers even to avoid soaps and natural oils... so what are the emulsifiers in such a true organic style?

Does coco wet pass your test? Danks for the help.

 

[Cann]

So many purists on here its great. I guess after this bottle of protekt I will experiment with alternative silica sources...but after reading that article I am going to be including silica somehow from here on out.

I'm thinking about making up a stinging nettle tea...apparently it is a good source of silica. Here is a quote from, of course, Lumperdawgz:

"You can use certain plants and make a tea from them and get a readily available source of silica (for example). Stinging nettle contains 6,500 ppm of Silica which is really, really high.

If you're not inclined to dress-up and play Daniel Boone and tromp through the forest to drag home nettle plants then you can buy organic dry nettle leaf for less than $10.00 per lb. I'd say that you'd want to use 1 oz. of nettle leaf to 1 quart of water and let it stand for several days. Strain and dilute to make 1 gallon of nettle tea and apply to the soil and this ratio is safe enough for spraying on the leaves and plants.

It's my experience that the silica in nettle leaf is assimilated faster than liquid silica (generally potassium sillicate)

Comfrey is also a good source of silica (as well as phosphorus, potassium, trace minerals, Vitamins A - K, phytohormones, auxins, etc. same as nettle leaf). Comfrey runs a bit more (about $1.00) per lb.

The top plant source for silica is probably rice - 140,000 ppm and it takes a bit more work/effort to coax it from the grain but it's doable.

HTH

LD"


greenghost - do you mean RRog's link or mine? Cause mine seems to be working for me...and if RRog's doesnt work there might be a torrent out there? If not the summary i linked should suffice until you can put your hands on the text.

 

[SpliffAndMyLady]

Strange, the link works for me. . .It is a pdf file though so you need to let it download then open the file with adobe; or some program ly'dat!

 

[SpliffAndMyLady]

IMO organic is like pregnant, you either are or aren't.

. . . . . . . . . . .

 

[Rising Moon]

Dandelion leaves contain HUGE amounts of Silica as well...

 

[greenghost420]

i waited for awhile with excitement...lol

 

[Snafu1236]

greenghost - you definitely should've bought Teaming with Microbes before TLO. After reading Teaming with Microbes, TLO seems like is is mostly fluff...

go to RRog's link and get to readin! Also, this is a great summary of the book - http://timberglade.typepad.com/outside/2007/01/book_club_teami.html


Snafu - is Protekt unsatisfactory to you cause you know its not organic and you're an organic purist? Just curious if you have actually had bad results with it or not. Don't wanna f*** up my ladies.....

And why no neem oil? Do you use neem cake in the soil? How do you protect against powdery mildew? I would love to never spray neem again...but too paranoid about PM and serenade smells like nasty feet lol (still have a bottle though just in case).

Hey Cann,

Good questions!

I'm not an organic purist, but am partial to organics. If I was a purist, I would be an outdoor grower through and through.

Protekt has not given me bad results during growing...in fact it is satisfactory in growing, and plants respond well to it. However, if compared to an identical clone in a controlled analysis, the final finished product using Protekt (IME) was harsher and not as flavorful as the one that Protekt was not used.

Neem oil, yuck. Traditionally it has been used to treat a wide variety of ailments including acne...Ayurvedic traditions used neem extensively. However, in contemporary times it is used in all kinds of soaps, makeup and other applications...in our case, a biologically organic insecticide.

Neem oil will unequivocally cause damage to the Soil Food Web. In my experience plants respond well to it, but the underlying soil layers hurt from it. I have always found that I need to rebound my soil after a neem or Azamax drench with a quality AACT or soemthing equivalent like humus/casting layers. But alas, nowadays my gardening doesn't require me to have Neem Oil or Azamax or any other pesticide. I have found that a proper bio soil does all the work for me and creates no problems and mitigates risks.

Powdery mildew? Never had it. Ever. Neem cake? Never used it, but I have used Neem Oil. I do not know what Serenade is.

 

[Cann]

Hmm...what type of damage do you think neem does to the food web? As far as I can tell, neem is harmless to microbes and beneficial insects like earthworms, microarthropods, etc. Check out this quote from Eco12 on grasscity:


Neem seed meal (aka Neem cake) is used in agriculture as a soil amendment, protecting the roots and enhancing plant growth. Products made from Neem trees have been used in India for over two millennia for their medicinal properties. Neem cake organic manure is the by-product obtained in the process of cold pressing of Neem tree fruits and kernels, and the solvent extraction process for neem oil cake. Neem Cake has an adequate quantity of NPK (5-1-1) in organic form for plant growth. Being a totally botanical product it contains 100% natural NPK content and other essential micro nutrients as N(Nitrogen 2.0% to 5.0%), P(Phosphorus 0.5% to 1.0%), K(Potassium 1.0% to 2.0%), Ca(Calcium 0.5% to 3.0%), Mg(Magnesium 0.3% to 1.0%), S(Sulphur 0.2% to 3.0%), Zn(Zinc 15 ppm to 60 ppm), Cu(Copper 4 ppm to 20 ppm), Fe (Iron 500 ppm to 1200 ppm), Mn (Manganese 20 ppm to 60 ppm). It is rich in both sulphur compounds and bitter limonoids.

According to research calculations, Neem cake seems to make soil more fertile due to an ingredient that blocks soil bacteria from converting nitrogenous compounds into nitrogen gas. It is a nitrification inhibitor and prolongs the availability of nitrogen to both short duration and long duration crops.
Neem cake also protects plant roots from nematodes, soil grubs and white ants probably due to its content of the residual limonoids. It also acts as a natural fertilizer with pesticidal properties. Neem cake is widely used in India to fertilize paddy, cotton and sugarcane.
Neem seed cake also reduce alkalinity in soil, as it produces organic acids on decomposition. Being totally natural, it is compatible with soil microbes, improves and rhizosphere microflora and hence ensures fertility of the soil. Neem cake improves the organic matter content of the soil, helping improvement in soil texture, water holding capacity, and soil aeration for better root development.
One of the active ingredients in Neem is azadirachtin. You’ve probably seen or heard of products like Azamax, Azasol, or Azatrol. All are products that have isolated the azadirachtin in various concentrations, and claim biological insecticide or fungicides. Not only are these products more expensive, but they will be lacking a plethora of other active compounds found in neem. Research has shown that some of these minor neem chemicals even paralyze the "swallowing mechanism" and so prevent insects from eating.
Most of the retail products contain Azadirachtal at 1,500 PPM. Many of the extracts are as high as 6,500 PPM so caution needs to be used when figuring out a mixing ratio.

Here’s an article specifically addressing this:
FUNCTIONAL BLOCKS OF NEEM OIL Dr.Ilangovan Ramasamy, B ...

Neem's natural properties pose no danger of toxic reactions. It's main mode of action is classified as an "anti-feedant", meaning that insect pests usually refuse to eat any plant covered with neem and do so until they starve to death. Other effects are as a repellant and a reducer of the insect's ability to reproduce.
Elimination of the insect pest occurs not by quick poisoning, but by starvation and drastic reductions in offspring. Birds and beneficial insects, which are not affected by neem, then feed on the remaining weakened pests and the small number of remaining offspring. The result is an almost immediate halt to plant damage- without poisoning the environment.
Neem garden spray is non-toxic to animals and people. Areas sprayed with neem are not poisonous areas to be avoided for days as those sprayed with the typical synthetic insecticides. Neem is also a natural, bio-degradable product. Only insects that eat plants are affected by neem, leaving honeybees and other beneficial insects essentially unharmed. In fact, in those areas sprayed with neem, the average size and number of earthworms is greater that in unsprayed areas.

I use neem cake, so there is always azadirachtin in my soil...amongst many other neem based triterpines (limonoids), and I'm pretty sure my soil food web is alive as ever... (never had it tested though, so obviously I can't make any claims). And damn, congrats that you have never ran into powedery mildew...seems to me that around here (so-cal) you can't pick up a clone from a club without it. I never have PM issues when growing from seed...it's always someone else's infected clone. Serenade is a concentrated liquid culture of a strain of bacillus subtilis, which when diluted and applied to the leaves will outcompete/consume the powdery mildew. Basically a bacterium that eats the fungal hyphae and keeps the fungus from fruiting (appearing on the leaves/spreading spores to more plants).

 

[Kalyx]

I have always wondered what my neem/azatrol drip is doing to the herd?

Snafu, what have you noted in your garden that is evidence of neem damage to the soil food web?

Also, does anyone take the time to physically cover their container to prevent this?

PM sucks, I had never experienced it before getting a job in a big medi grow where it seems rampant. I thought we had it under wraps and then BAM when the weather cooled off, I saw the garden was infested bad! Every variety I have brought there falls victim quickly. I shower before tending my own garden but its got me noided as hell about bringing that in! I feel guilty knowing infected cuts are going out to patients all the time. Work is all synth hydro and my home is an all organic living soil project, a bit different in resistance I guess. At home I brought back a solid neem/karanja/azatrol regimen to combat the PM threat, plus mites love to infiltrate everything still alive in the fall where I live. I don't want to hurt the herd, and it seems a physical barrier to the drip hitting the soil surface could be a minimal extra step. Is it necessary?

PS I also use neem and karanja meals in my mix and it seems alive and well after cooking.

 

[Cann]

Kalyx - I doubt the neem/azatrol drip is doing anything negative...but then again thats always been my point of view. Good call with the neem/karanja meals - I need to order a bag of karanja myself, but need to pay some bills first.

I feel ya on the whole PM thing, it'll lurk inside the plant systemically, and then all of a sudden just explode and sporulate all over the leaves. You think you have it under control, hasnt been around for weeks, and then all of a sudden you notice almost every plant is showing....shit sucks. I'm glad I have it under wraps in my house, for a while my quarantine area was infected with PM plants I had got from a friend, but I killed em all lol so now I'm not as paranoid. Before I was changing clothes, washing myself all the time, etc. to try and keep the spores from spreading. Sucks that you have to go into a PM infested garden all the time...would make me paranoid as hell. Also its brutal you have to give out the infected cuts to patients...it sucks to see the excited look on someones face when you know the cut is just going to give them problems in the future. At least you have a job where you are growing plants though Have you ever brought up organics to your boss lol? I know most large scale medi operations try to go hydro etc, but if you switched to organics you might be able to control the PM better...neem is a great systemic fighter of PM, the only other systemic I can think of is Green Cure, but that stuff is a pain and can burn leaves, pistils, etc. Might be worth the consideration, cause you'll be battling that PM forever until you figure out a way to fight it effectively...the spores are alllll over the building and aren't going anywhere anytime soon....

 

[Snafu1236]

Ah, I do not deal with clones, from anybody, ever. Never have. If anything , I dish out my clones to others, or they pay me for them.

I always grow from seed and select a lady from a variety of seeds. It is always organic, and I never have heat, bug or other issues in my grows.

How have I noticed neem hurt my soil web?

1. The soil food web does not naturally ascertain a neem oil presence in its natural state. Even where neem oil exists, it is not actively present in the soil below. Why would one add it, unless you had a problem that neem could help with? But my question is, why do you have a problem in the first place if you did everything right?
2. Lockouts
3. Reduced overall growth
4. Physical root disturbance. On a side by side analysis post neem aplpication of roots on a Vanilla Kush clone from Barney's Seeds, there was unmistakable root distrubance. It was almost like the outer cobweb-type layers were completely burnt off compared to the other clone that was not applied with neem. It was shocking when I first did that test actually.

Just my experience.

I do not know what you mean about covers? But I do typically mulch my top soil layer when I begin flowering.

And yeah, never had powdery mildew so I cannot really answer anything to do with that.

-Snafu

 

[bongmarley7]

Hey everyone!!! So my supersoil has been cooking for almost 9 weeks!!! My question is. should i throw it all back on the tarp and mix it up again before using? or can i take it straight out of the can im cooking it in?

Seeds: Ace of spade (TGA). Strawberry cough (Attitude seeds) and they gave me two feminized seeds a CH9? and then another on that says vintage 2006 jack. im going to pop them anyways of course lol. G13 x sour diesel. I am germinating these all at the same time then veg for 8 weeks under his 600wtt OR should i just stick with t5 48? After the veg i transplant them in 1/3 super soil topped with 3inches mixed base/super soil then top off the pot with base soil? CORRECT? just want to make sure i have the process down before i begin.

I have 2 fire headband and two mast kush that i have LST to the core lol they look SO cool straight up looks like a huge bonzai tree!!!! soooo many shoots! BUT these 4 are ready to transplant. i am going to transplant into 10 gallon smart pots. 1/3 of the pot will be pure supersoil.the next few inches will be a mix of supersoil and base soil and the rest will be pure base soil......Please advise and your input is much appreciated =) jah love

 

[greenghost420]

can i use the general organics bio grow to suppliment nitrogen? i have a plant at 5 weeks that is yellowing up pretty fast. i hit her with calmag last night, strong dose but didnt slow progression. my other choice is top dressing with uncooked SS. could i top dress with low dose of bone meal?

 

[Buddha's Botany]

Danks guys. I am referring back to the silica question. Protekt and all other liquid silicas are full synth molecules yet many organic "purists", even Matt Rize and other uber snobs use the liquid silicas on their plants and still hype them as organic or veganic. I fully understand that these definitions are subjective for each gardener, but to me synth products are out period. The woods do not use any synth so neither do I.

IMO organic is like pregnant, you either are or aren't.

Protekt = plants Aren't fully organic. Some call it Nazi organic when I explain the lengths of my definition of organic meds.

My last favorite use of said liquid silicas was as an emulsifier. Snafu prefers even to avoid soaps and natural oils... so what are the emulsifiers in such a true organic style?

Does coco wet pass your test? Danks for the help.

Please don't take this as a pop shot at you...but how are you defining organic vs. inorganic gardening?

Because all organisms use and need all sorts of inorganic compounds to thrive and in order to get silica into your plant's organically you would be limited to a list of carbon bound Si sources like C8H10O2S when an inorganic compound like CaSiO3 might be just as or maybe even a more accessible (idk off the top of my head if it is or not but you get my point right?) and natural yet inorganic. Just like MgSO4 (epsom salt) is often accepted as an "organic" amendment but there isn't anything organic about it.

Or is growing "organically" just a matter of using naturally occurring substances instead of using compounds unacceptably over processed/refined/concentrated by human kind? Does it really matter as long as it doesn't disturb/damage the micro fauna in your grow medium and get's whatever organism you are growing what it needs to thrive without using any other potentially harmful binding agents/peservatives etc?


Like you said the definition of organic gardening is not exactly standardized....just trying to get a better feel for both other members and your views on what is and is not organic gardening with regard to soil building.

OP thanks for the killer vid it's always really neat to see how other people do things.

 

[backyardagain]

can i substitute the roots for pro mix? and would it achieve the same overall product in the end? i plan on doing my next run organics following this but not making that many bags maybe just with the one bag of promix maybe two. will be starting it in a smaller area and testing it to see if i like it better then having to always add nutrients.

i think im also going ot tune it down a little too so i can add either seedlings or transplant seedlings into it.

 

[dirtyho1968]

As far as powdery mildew goes, I have read a Lumperdawgz post on how he uses fungal dominant teas (as a foliar spray) to fight PM.
edit: I have not tried this as I use a dehumidifier and do not have this problem.

 

[jbooley]

Just starting to get in to organic soil. I have been reading a lot on here and I don't post much and was looking just for a quick look at what I'm going to do. I'm going to use super soil and this is what i'm using in it. I was wondering about using the Ancient forest and the EWC together. I would like to use the Ancient Forest for teas if it is not needed in the soil. If it really helps i would leave it in.

4 bags of roots

3 cf of Coco (going to use only .5 to .75 cf)


30lbs of EWC


Ancient Forest


2.5 Alfalfa Meal: 2-1-2


2.5 Blood Meal: 13-0-0


2.5 Bone Meal: 3-15-0


2.5 Kelp Meal: .6-.5-2.5


2.5 bat guano 0-5-0


Azomite


Humic powder


dolomite lime


Epson salts


Earth Juice Rooters Mycorrhizae

Thanks JB

 

[Cpt. Plant it]

Just starting to get in to organic soil. I have been reading a lot on here and I don't post much and was looking just for a quick look at what I'm going to do. I'm going to use super soil and this is what i'm using in it. I was wondering about using the Ancient forest and the EWC together. I would like to use the Ancient Forest for teas if it is not needed in the soil. If it really helps i would leave it in.

4 bags of roots

3 cf of Coco (going to use only .5 to .75 cf)


30lbs of EWC


Ancient Forest


2.5 Alfalfa Meal: 2-1-2


2.5 Blood Meal: 13-0-0


2.5 Bone Meal: 3-15-0


2.5 Kelp Meal: .6-.5-2.5


2.5 bat guano 0-5-0


Azomite


Humic powder


dolomite lime


Epson salts


Earth Juice Rooters Mycorrhizae

Thanks JB

Sounds good to me, and you can use the ancient forest for tea.

 

[jbooley]

Thank you for taking a look at it CPT plant it. Any and all advise is appreciated

JB

 

[shvantz]

Hey guys i have a meter to check the soil moisture scale from 0-10 1 being very dry 5 being moist and 10 being wet my super soil is around 8 on the scale, is this too much moisture in my mix? I have them covered in my closet the lids all have good condensation accumulating. If its too much moisture is there a way i can correct this? Thanks