Ayahuasca - Ever heard of it?

[toronjadeoro]

Sorry to bump the thread, but just saw it and wanted to share that I have tried ayahuasca on two different occasions and have no regrets at all. I do have a cast iron stomach, so not vomiting for me, and yes, it is a very powerful and unforgiving hallucinogen. It's like 10 years of therapy in one night, someone said.

The only unfortunate thing about it for me is that the circles that consume it (in the US at least) are mostly upper class ricos who are now finally at a point in their accumlated fortunes to be able to "afford" spiritual enlightenment. Well-monied Shirley McClaine (sp?) types who love to escape their lives as yoga instructors and lawyers who revel in connecting to a higher spiritual path that wasn't what they were taught as children. Once they come down, they can safely return to their cloistered lives among the other money men. And that's cool with me, but I really don't like to be around people like that. There are troves of people who go to Peru, Brazil and Colombia to participate in the rituals (I haven't gone), but that almost necessarily means that you're with the same undesirable company (well, undesirable for me). I'm into the spiritual connectedness and being one with all that is, etc., but I'm way too much of a cynic at the same time to tolerate that company.

It is an amazing experience, far more powerful that any hallucinogen I've tried, and there is this weird element that makes you feel like it is its own being, and it is guiding you to what you need to face or overcome in your life. I cannot recommend it enough, but if you're too cynical like me (an unfortunate condition that I have to get over), then you might have trouble finding the right company. There are, however, sites where you can order it from and prepare it yourself. That's what I did the second time, and my experience was so much better than the first.

I'll answer any details if you're interested.

 

[gioua]

full documentary on this vine soup.. (oddly I think the vines can be bought on ebay) not sure about the other materials found in the soup...


I think the vision part of this experience would be interesting.. the rest.. not so much.. from what I recall it was about 3-4 hours of puking.. then the fun started.. and lasted for hours

[video=youtube;P0ommNRJeMQ]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P0ommNRJeMQ[/video]

 

[toronjadeoro]

This is the video that features the Shimbre retreat center where an 18 year old, Kyle Nolan from the US, died last September during an ayahuasca ritual. It appears by the so far unsubstantiated accounts that I've read, the death was possibly due to his ingestion of an herb that actually does have a lethal dose called "Toé." It sounds like the quack of a shaman that attended the retreat is the one responsible for having laced his brew with it. It is a horrible tragedy, and now the whole ayahuasca community is up in arms because the retreat did not provide supervision during the ritual.

This sucks, because Shimbre sounded like one of the only centers that actually allowed people to commune independently with nature rather than the other centers that basically make you sit down in the same room and chant the equivalent of kumbaya for 8 hours. I dig community and I take my obligation to serve it and better it very seriously, but I hate going to "church."

My first ayahuasca experience began with an e-mail I received that began, "Dear Circle of Light...." If that isn't hokey, i don't know what is. I knew ahead of time i would not want to be around people like that, but I had read a book 22 years ago called "The Eagle's Quest" by Fred Alan Wolf. He's a theoretical physicist who went to Peru on a series of ayahuasca retreats to reconcile his science with spirituality. I ate that book up, but where the hell would i find ayahuasca 22 years ago? Yeah, so I went to the retreat in the US about 3 years ago. I was forced to wear only white clothing and sit in a circle of Richy Riches, eat an incredibly powerful hallucinogen and stay in the room the entire time while the others chanted traditional spiritual music in Portugese from a hymnal. I was expected to do the same, but I just wanted to leave and run naked in the woods. I asked one of the "leaders" if I could please leave and return to my tent. With a smile, she said, "No." Had i my wits about me, i would have left anyway, but so it goes. Tripping balls, I said to myself over and over again, "Fuck. I'm in a cult."

There was kind of a Q and A on the day between the two rituals, and that was very difficult to bear. A bunch of glazed over nitwits, some of them crying, and one guy who had to be in his fifties who actually said, "Because of the experience last night, I was finally able to forgive my mother...and that is truly remarkable, because she's been dead for 8 years." I wish I was more sensitive to the needs of these effusive tribe-seekers, but I'm just not cut out for cult behavior.

The 2nd time, i did it alone (ordered on the internet). That was the most powerful, revelatory experience I've had in my life. If I could afford to go to Peru and do it for a week, i would, but owing to the unfortunate news of Kyle Nolan, all of the centers are going to impose strict supervision I'm sure. That means I would only be able to run naked in a circle of people behind a locked door.

 

[canndo]

How is it different than ingested DMT with an MAOI?

 

[toronjadeoro]

Well, I haven't taken it in synthesized form, but that's the exact formula of ayahuasca. I may have this backwards, but the ayahuasca vine itself is the source of the DMT, while the other plant (Psychotria Viridis the most common) completes the formula serving as the MAO inhibitor (again, if I don't have that backwards). The two together are what make the tea. I'm tempted to say it just may be like the difference between LSD (remember about 20 years ago when you could still find it?) and mushrooms. I adore both of those for many of the same reasons. I have to say, though, I've never felt so connected to a plant. I felt it was there guiding me and squeezing my soul out like a wet rag.

 

[MrEDuck]

Psychotria Viridis is the DMT containing plant, the ayahausca is the MAOI containing plant.
I believe Canndo was asking how ayahausca differs from pharmausca in properties.

 

[weasels911]

I have always thought that there was something else added in traditional aya that was the cause of most of the vomiting/purge that happens. A big part of the cleansing process, but pharmausca does without this.

 

[Figong]

This is the video that features the Shimbre retreat center where an 18 year old, Kyle Nolan from the US, died last September during an ayahuasca ritual. It appears by the so far unsubstantiated accounts that I've read, the death was possibly due to his ingestion of an herb that actually does have a lethal dose called "Toé." It sounds like the quack of a shaman that attended the retreat is the one responsible for having laced his brew with it. It is a horrible tragedy, and now the whole ayahuasca community is up in arms because the retreat did not provide supervision during the ritual.-snip-

Angel's trumpet tea.. evil evil. That said, they might as well have chewed on a few Crab's eye, tossed in a little apple of death, and some roots and stems ground down with mortar and pestle from the suicide tree if they wanted to experiment.

 

[canndo]

Psychotria Viridis is the DMT containing plant, the ayahausca is the MAOI containing plant.
I believe Canndo was asking how ayahausca differs from pharmausca in properties.

That he was Duck - reason I asked is that I did my stint with harmaline + other substances and one of them of particular interest WAS DMT, both smoked and eaten. I never encountered spirit animals (though I have with mushrooms), nor long lasting "entities" inherent in the experience, not even in a tank where I thought sure I would, after all, Lilly SAID they were there. It occured to me that some other moderating chemical in the ayhusca might provide that particular quality and thought it might be best to ask someone who had actually tried that viscous brew that I refused to touch becuase.... after all. chemistry often precludes purging and I hate purging.

 

[toronjadeoro]

I wish I could tell you more about the chemical properties, canndo. I suppose I'm lucky that it didn't make me vomit either time. No one can argue that is ever a pleasant experience; however, if I had to vomit 10 times in a row to experience ayahuasca again, I would. Sounds crazy--well, okay, it is crazy, but I had never felt so cleansed and renewed from any other chemical experience. It wasn't easy and fun. At some points it was even hellish, but somehow it was all okay and needed to happen for me to evolve psycho-spiritually. All of my blathering doesn't exactly support the idea that I have evolved at all, but wow. I can see how it's become a religion. People just hallucinate their godheads into existence.

If you're intrigued at all to read an interesting book on it, there's a great one called the Cosmic Serpent written by a (I believe) an anthropologist (Jeremy Narby) who did not travel to the Amazon to do ayahuasca, but he eventually, a little begrudgingly did it. I like that about him, because he doesn't go overboard and join a cult like so many do. He makes some really interesting links between the structure and knowledge we have of DNA with the visions and meaning of existence within the ayahuasca tribes. It's a good, quick read.

 

[Kervork]

Hmmm.. I always just took the ayahusca ingredients and made dmt.

What what? Up the Butt?

 

[thatboyis1uvakind]

U have to travel to tribal places to do this......and u cant just go trip on that stuff either....u gotta train urself using other hallucinagins as stepping stones....its the big leagues.....its not like droppin a couple hits at a rave or watching natural born killers trippin ur ass of where ur like wow thats crazy or "wtf is goin on here"....or watching the walls melt and the carpet wave and ur buddies face turns into a demon...no no no...this stuff is wayyyyyy past that kinda trippin....it takes u somewhere....elsewhere. ....like ur not here anymore...and they say beings approach u n speak to u n show u truths n stuff.......I wanna do it....bad.

 

[thatboyis1uvakind]

For those of u that have done dmt.....and "crossed over"....did u see the beings?

 

[canndo]

I wish I could tell you more about the chemical properties, canndo. I suppose I'm lucky that it didn't make me vomit either time. No one can argue that is ever a pleasant experience; however, if I had to vomit 10 times in a row to experience ayahuasca again, I would. Sounds crazy--well, okay, it is crazy, but I had never felt so cleansed and renewed from any other chemical experience. It wasn't easy and fun. At some points it was even hellish, but somehow it was all okay and needed to happen for me to evolve psycho-spiritually. All of my blathering doesn't exactly support the idea that I have evolved at all, but wow. I can see how it's become a religion. People just hallucinate their godheads into existence.

If you're intrigued at all to read an interesting book on it, there's a great one called the Cosmic Serpent written by a (I believe) an anthropologist (Jeremy Narby) who did not travel to the Amazon to do ayahuasca, but he eventually, a little begrudgingly did it. I like that about him, because he doesn't go overboard and join a cult like so many do. He makes some really interesting links between the structure and knowledge we have of DNA with the visions and meaning of existence within the ayahuasca tribes. It's a good, quick read.

There is a particular aversion to throwing up in a sensory isolation tank. We never took anything that might tempt that reaction like the higher doses of peyote or pharmahusca (never heard that name Duck, thanks). You see - 600 to 900 lbs of epsom salts isn't cheap and no one wants to float in their own vomit for 8 hours, let alone someone elses - but the main thing we feared is that you have to turn your head or bow to gravity to vomit, vomiting laying in a pool of saturated water is extremely unwise.

 

[canndo]

For those of u that have done dmt.....and "crossed over"....did u see the beings?

To my understanding, it isn't so much seeing them, but communicating with them, or they with you. I was always alone, about the closest I got was a feeling of being watched or looked after - either detached or benevolent.

 

[toronjadeoro]

I haven't seen any beings either, but I think it's something that would come with more rituals or at least more partakings. There's some very psychedelic art by long time indigenous ayahuascueros and shaman. It's all very dreamlike but they have remarkable similarities in their depicitions of that world considering they are different artists (same animals, plants, shapes, expressions of infinity and the infinitesemal). That book I mentioned above talks of these themes and especially of the oddly high occurrence of double-helix shaped portrayals in all of the art. Not without a damn good argument does he write of the parallels of the scientific quest to fully comprehend DNA, the source of life, and the initiation of a shaman who in the end is somewhere in the spirit world watching the source of life unfold in front of him in in full color hallucinations or visions.

Vomit in a tank would really suck. But hey, man, would you consider drinking it in the woods somewhere--safe, where you wouldn't get shanked? I'll bet you wouldn't regret it.

 

[canndo]

I haven't seen any beings either, but I think it's something that would come with more rituals or at least more partakings. There's some very psychedelic art by long time indigenous ayahuascueros and shaman. It's all very dreamlike but they have remarkable similarities in their depicitions of that world considering they are different artists (same animals, plants, shapes, expressions of infinity and the infinitesemal). That book I mentioned above talks of these themes and especially of the oddly high occurrence of double-helix shaped portrayals in all of the art. Not without a damn good argument does he write of the parallels of the scientific quest to fully comprehend DNA, the source of life, and the initiation of a shaman who in the end is somewhere in the spirit world watching the source of life unfold in front of him in in full color hallucinations or visions.



Vomit in a tank would really suck. But hey, man, would you consider drinking it in the woods somewhere--safe, where you wouldn't get shanked? I'll bet you wouldn't regret it.

I have read many reports, and just because I never encountered entities in no way has me believe they don't exist. I can say with great certainty that each of those chemicals has or induces distinctly different effects - each imparts or posesses a personality and those personalities tend to - blur the line between one's inner being and the chemical. So was that jaguar always in your head and it took yopo to bring it to "your" attention or does the yopo have that animal contained within it's makeup.


As a for instance, I have never experienced smoked DMT, no matter how much that gave me the slightest hint of color - all forms, shapes and impressions were in grey black or "white". eating it with harmaline always gave me very hard edged, distinct modernistic or mechanical shapes whereas mescaline ALWAYS offered me indian motifs, pastels, wind swept and clear visons of open places with that psycho breeze that tends to blow your hair even if the day is utterly still. LSD to me always opened an inner eye that saw everything around me, behind and below and above with particularly vivid visions through the portals of my real eyes but LSD is cold and indifferent to it's user,with LSD it is as if the trip has always and will always be going on in another parallel place and you, having taken it simply speed up enough to be able to enter that place - upon leaving I was always certain that the environment still existed.

And mushrooms are highly personal, almost a symbiosis of brain and entity, where you invited this entity into yourself and it makes you it's home for the duration - still though, it is not an entity that one confronts, rather one that one inhabits or is inhabited by.

 

[toronjadeoro]

That was really beautifully put, canndo. So many people use hallucinogens just as a complement to the night's entertainment and alcohol binge, and that's cool, I guess. But you do your homework. I'd never thought of the "being inhabited" sensation on mushrooms, but I'll think about that again for sure next opportunity I actually get my hands on some. I've never had an opportunity to try mescaline but one day. Nice job on describing LSD. I actually love that it's cold and indifferent, but I'm one of those rare ones who loves the sensation of fear--not fear of cops (which sucks), but fear of the unknown.

 

[zVice]

Agreed, I never "saw them" but there was definitely a comforting presence even though I was alone.

To my understanding, it isn't so much seeing them, but communicating with them, or they with you. I was always alone, about the closest I got was a feeling of being watched or looked after - either detached or benevolent.

 

[canndo]

That was really beautifully put, canndo. So many people use hallucinogens just as a complement to the night's entertainment and alcohol binge, and that's cool, I guess. But you do your homework. I'd never thought of the "being inhabited" sensation on mushrooms, but I'll think about that again for sure next opportunity I actually get my hands on some. I've never had an opportunity to try mescaline but one day. Nice job on describing LSD. I actually love that it's cold and indifferent, but I'm one of those rare ones who loves the sensation of fear--not fear of cops (which sucks), but fear of the unknown.

I enjoyed the coldness as well, the indiference, it is as though I were boarding a brand new subway train all light and flash and purity and cleanliness. Mescaline is like riding a burro, old, knowlegable, slow, ponderous within a great purpose, and interested in your finding that purpose"There, see what i have to show YOU, YOU are important and I am bearing YOU to this place of peace or reverence.