More on the evils of capitalism.

abandonconflict

Well-Known Member
against austerity which can be cuts to taxes collected by CENTRAL PLANNERS
Therefore I must choose between shit sandwich and douchebag. You get austerity (collective misery) or you get soviet communism (collective misery). Why you gotta be such a commy bro?

Why do your false dichotomies narrow the options to such crap?

Did you ever think of that? Man?


Actually, anarchy is neither capitalist, nor centralized. Therefore when I criticize the collective misery called austerity, I'm not pushing communism bro. That is why I said to read about syndicalism.
 

ginwilly

Well-Known Member
More civil, thanks.

I understand you are not pushing communism by criticizing austerity. I blame our marxist comments for putting you on the defensive so i give you a pass for misinterpreting that. What is spawned from NO austerity is a more powerful, better funded central government. Before we go any further, agree or disagree.
 

abandonconflict

Well-Known Member
More civil, thanks.

I understand you are not pushing communism by criticizing austerity. What is spawned from NO austerity is a more powerful, better funded central government. Before we go any further, agree or disagree.
I suppose if we stay in the capitalist model that is true, but I'm not arguing that.

It's cool though I agree stimulus is some commy bullshit and results in endless growth.
 

abandonconflict

Well-Known Member
Are you arguing for anarchy with central planning?
I'm actually criticizing capitalism. You're asking me what my views are. I prefer this to having views falsely ascribed to me, but I prefer even more, to not push anything.

But no, I'm not arguing for that.
 

cannabineer

Ursus marijanus
Deciphering...

No this is just the way it is, so says Stalin. You're therefore wrong and I have to go."

I suggest you take another look at game theory behavior research.

It overwhelmingly attests to the benefit of mutual aid. The only problem is fear. Fear causes selfish behavior, nay it TEACHES it. Game theory also proves that mutual aid, as a taught behavior is very easy to establish and spreads, just as molecules arrange into crystals.

Instead of cowering, inspire some hope. There can be no providence with out hope my friend.
You really need to stop "deciphering". It interferes with hearing what others say. Jmo. cn
 

ginwilly

Well-Known Member
And this is where you lose me again. How is it possible to be against both central planning AND austerity measures to that central planning. It simply does not compute.
 

cannabineer

Ursus marijanus
I think you are correct that there are people that are outright fuckheads. I would even go as far to say that these fuckheads would be dangerous in a utopian society if they were able to sway people toward their way of thinking. Then you have a dangerous collective. Then war. Then back to square one.

I'll have to sit and think about this one. The problem lies in the fact that there are people that can't function in mutually beneficial way. Even though the percentage may be very small it is still a problem that needs to be looked at.

My only thought at this time is evolution. Over a period of time these bad apples would die off. It pains me to say this but I don't think there would be a way to deal with these people without the use of force and segregation in the short term. Segregation by means of territory not by means of imprisonment. Crime and punishment will still exist. I guess it wouldn't be a utopia then would it?
Unless, of course, there is an evolutionary advantage to having a small but nonzero proportion of fuckheads in our makeup. It isn't beyond imagining that when things go straight to hell, be it because the environment hiccuped or some unspecified human factor ... fuckheads survive to breed better than the nice guys. This is pure supposition, and I'd be interested to see it countered ... but in the crunch, selfishness is a proven survival edge. cn
 

cannabineer

Ursus marijanus
Or maybe, in afairs of State, screw trusting, only verify.
I think some trust is unavoidably necessary. The alternative is each of us defending a small territory at all costs, and that isn't the way forward imo. My principal beef with the idea that we should all drop our barriers to trust has to do with those who will take unbounded advantage. I have no recipe for having sufficient trust alongside sufficient security. cn
 

abandonconflict

Well-Known Member
Okay; show me the data countering the claim.

In support of my thesis, here is a fascinating link from a generally non-woo source. cn

http://uanews.org/story/it-takes-a-thief-to-catch-a-thief-the-evolution-of-selfishness
Actually, the research (upon which the article is based) concludes thusly:

"A healthy dose of a few selfish individuals in a community of altruistic individuals can benefit the whole group."

That is the central conclusion of the research. It doesn't even conclude that ass holes do help, just that they can.

I wonder what effect a few ass holes can have in a world where everybody is kind of a jerk.
 

cannabineer

Ursus marijanus
Actually, the research (upon which the article is based) concludes thusly:

"A healthy dose of a few selfish individuals in a community of altruistic individuals can benefit the whole group."

That is the central conclusion of the research. It doesn't even conclude that ass holes do help, just that they can.

I wonder what effect a few ass holes can have in a world where everybody is kind of a jerk.
Exactly. Those few assholes are an irritant, a goad against complacency.

I would still like to see your data supporting the counterargument. cn
 

abandonconflict

Well-Known Member
No, it says a few ass holes, in a community of otherwise altruistic people. Those parameters disqualify the research as supportive of selfishness being an evolutionary boon. If anything it supports the idea that the only way we can carry ass holes through the eons is by being super righteous cool dudes.

I will post though, I'm looking for something in particular, it is taking me a while.
 

abandonconflict

Well-Known Member
Actually.

The research concludes that the dude is right.

The dude abides.

Ass holes have always existed and they always will.

The question of how altruism can evolve despite its local disadvantage to selfishness has produced a wealth of theoretical and empirical research capturing the attention of scientists across disciplines for decades. One feature that has remained consistent through this outpouring of knowledge has been that researchers have looked to the altruists themselves for mechanisms by which altruism can curtail selfishness. An alternative perspective may be that just as altruists want to limit selfishness in the population, so may the selfish individuals themselves. These alternative perspectives have been most evident in the fairly recent development of enforcement strategies. Punishment can effectively limit selfishness in the population, but it is not free. Thus, when punishment evolves among altruists, the double costs of exploitation from cheaters and punishment make the evolution of punishment problematic. Here we show that punishment can more readily invade selfish populations when associated with selfishness, whereas altruistic punishers cannot. Thereafter, the establishment of altruism because of enforcement by selfish punishers provides the ideal invasion conditions for altruistic punishment, effectively creating a transition of punishment from selfishness to altruistic. Thus, from chaotic beginnings, a little hypocrisy may go a long way in the evolution and maintenance of altruism.
It turns out, if wasn't for ass holes, there wouldn't be good people either.

 

cannabineer

Ursus marijanus
No, it says a few ass holes, in a community of otherwise altruistic people. Those parameters disqualify the research as supportive of selfishness being an evolutionary boon. If anything it supports the idea that the only way we can carry ass holes through the eons is by being super righteous cool dudes.

I will post though, I'm looking for something in particular, it is taking me a while.
Don't pick only the nicest cherries. cn
 

SlaveNoMore

Active Member
I'm not digging the whole altruism/selfish thing. I believe people act in an altruistic manner for selfish reasons. It makes them feel good to do good. So, in a way it's selfish. I don't think altruism exists.
 
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