Alternative sources for amendments

DonBrennon

DonBrennon

Well-Known Member
One of my Main issues with organics is finding the amendments that are 'advised', as the garden centres and hydro shops round here just don't stock it. Here's a typical stock list Garden centre - Growmore-Bonemeal-Fish,blood&bone-dolomite, some chem liquid ferts and rarely some organic liquid ferts. Hydro - all the usual chem ferts with some organics slowly creepin in.

There is quite a good online organics community where most things can be sourced, with a few exceptions.
Neem, seaweed, gypsum, volcanic rock dust, rock phosphte, gypsum, biochar, comfrey pellets are available, but when it comes to crabshell meal, greensand or azomite..................no chance. I have found out that I can order neptunes harvest crabmeal from France(from america first though?), with obvious high shipping costs, but I like to buy locally as much as possible.

What I've found is pet feed outlets sell a lot of good amendments for horses & chickens........eg pure organic alfalfa pellets(nobody in organic growing is using this here), Neem oil, Molases, oyster shell meal, hay, straw, I've even found a dried dandelion salad for guinnea pigs, great top dressing lol.

Anyway, I've recently found that fishing dudes use a lot of meals in their ground baits and the ones that are interesting me are the fish meal, as the one at the garden centre is mixed with blood and bonemeal, and the krill meal because it does have some good chitin content and I'm sure I've read that someone is already using it as a fertiliser?

Does anybody else source their amendments from other places and what are your favourite/most economical?
 
DonBrennon said:
Oh......... I got on to this because I've found my best supply of fresh wormcasts and composting worms is from a fishing bait shop :hump:
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pardon my ignorance, being as though I don't know where you are (I assume the UK), but is there a craigslist?
Or anything of that sort?
Most everywhere has people that raise rabbits, their manure is PERFECT. Alpacas are good too, only not as much
Add kelp meal, and some of that krill meal.
And that's all.
I've personally grown great herb with nothing more than rabbit manure and kelp, no minerals, no nothing.
 
DonBrennon said:
These are only examples, there's a bait shop down the road I'd prob get it cheaper

http://www.ukbaitcompany.co.uk/shop/sardine-anchovy-meal/

http://www.ukbaitcompany.co.uk/shop/lt-94-fishmeal-950g-25kg/

http://www.ukbaitcompany.co.uk/shop/antarctic-krill-meal/
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those are expensive man, but i'm used to the states..
uhh... what.. if that's for 750g it's not bad I guess... my math was off.
that's a lb and a half for like 10 bucks... (sorry, had to break it down to 'merican numbers)
 
Yeah, uk based,sorry about that. I'm already thinking about gettingmy own rabbits, I've got a place for them, but it needs working on to protect from foxes and badgers. Something got in and killed all my mates chickens.

The meals are quite expensive, but I'll only be using minimum amounts to top dress in no till, so £21 for a 5kg bag which would probably last for years isn't too bad imo
 
DonBrennon said:
Yeah, uk based,sorry about that. I'm already thinking about gettingmy own rabbits, I've got a place for them, but it needs working on to protect from foxes and badgers. Something got in and killed all my mates chickens.

The meals are quite expensive, but I'll only be using minimum amounts to top dress in no till, so £21 for a 5kg bag which would probably last for years isn't too bad imo
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careful topdressing, in my experience it's a poor way to use meals, they don't break down in time, don't compost/age correctly, and can lead to acidic "pockets" as they breakdown.
I spend 40 bucks a yr on nutrients, that's enough for like 5 or 6 runs.
 
Thanks for the heads up, I see you amend your compost with meals, do you just topdress this and wormcasts or do you bust up and re-amend with meals after each harvest? I topdressed with vermicompost and meals (1-2 tbsp each kelp, neem, comfrey, frass, fish-blood and bone, gypsum and oyster shell) about 4 weeks ago on switch to 12-12, before applying new mulch of 3-4 inch of straw (in 20G root pouches). I've got loads of worms in there as well a all kinds of mites and bugs, the straw has virtually all been eaten and is all now pretty much wormcasts with bits of straw mixed into (roughly) the top inch. When I lift this top inch back you can see roots right on the surface. I have been having to spraying the mulch and surface between waterings to prevent them drying out because they need watering so infrequently. It amazes me how quick the soil life can eat mulch, it's also pretty impressive how the worms perfectly level it off on the top off the pots.
 
greasemonkeymann said:
careful topdressing, in my experience it's a poor way to use meals, they don't break down in time, don't compost/age correctly, and can lead to acidic "pockets" as they breakdown.
I spend 40 bucks a yr on nutrients, that's enough for like 5 or 6 runs.
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When you top dress your meals, do you add compost as well? top dressing is the best way to use meals imo..especially if you time them correctly. I've never ran into any problems with acidic pockets breaking down with top dressing.. Im curious, which nutrients give you acidic pockets?

If you pre-mix your compost with your meals you shouldn't have any problems as everything is broken down and ready to go, not to mention everything is in there..
 
I get neem and karanja from neem resource
Rock dust and bio char from rock dust local
Pumice from a local nursery
Peat moss from lowes
Then other amendments from the hydro shop. Neptune's harvest brand kelp meal and crab meal. Down to earth brand oyster shell flour, fishbone meal. I'm in the desert so there's no local fishing supplies or anything. Worms come from northwest redworms.
 
MistaRasta said:
When you top dress your meals, do you add compost as well? top dressing is the best way to use meals imo..especially if you time them correctly. I've never ran into any problems with acidic pockets breaking down with top dressing.. Im curious, which nutrients give you acidic pockets?

If you pre-mix your compost with your meals you shouldn't have any problems as everything is broken down and ready to go, not to mention everything is in there..
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Ahh, We grow very similar, all I ever do is mix my leaf compost with my meals, but they break down for at least 3 months, if not longer.

No, I haven't topdressed in a while, if i do, it's typically just worm castings mixed with leaf mold.
I amend my leaf compost and age/cycle all the meals in there.

Almost all organic meals will create somewhat of an acidic environment as they age, especially if under anaeroboc conditions (which are somewhat common if topdressing without mixing in) now granted a lot of that is predicated on which meals, some being fine to use, some not advisable, for example, a topdress of fish bone meal, bone meal, neem meal, alfalfa meal even, those that are not correctly mixed into the soil can create anaerobic conditions, which create acidity.

You mentioned adding compost, theres the lynchpin... you are absolutely creating a perfect environment for topdressing, and I doubt you ever have issues with acidity in that regard. So your method is a great one to use, if you topdress.

BUT not all are aware of that, many new growers topdress simply by sprinkling the amendment on top of the soil, in my opinion that's a poor technique.
And as always there are exceptions to that rule as well, an example is the "nitrogen" bat guano, that is usually not an issue to topdress with considering it's water soluble-ness, and the fact that it's relatively "available" to the plant.

It's not a 100% rule, but it is my reasoning behind my not-liking topdressing.
 
greasemonkeymann said:
Ahh, We grow very similar, all I ever do is mix my leaf compost with my meals, but they break down for at least 3 months, if not longer.

No, I haven't topdressed in a while, if i do, it's typically just worm castings mixed with leaf mold.
I amend my leaf compost and age/cycle all the meals in there.

Almost all organic meals will create somewhat of an acidic environment as they age, especially if under anaeroboc conditions (which are somewhat common if topdressing without mixing in) now granted a lot of that is predicated on which meals, some being fine to use, some not advisable, for example, a topdress of fish bone meal, bone meal, neem meal, alfalfa meal even, those that are not correctly mixed into the soil can create anaerobic conditions, which create acidity.

You mentioned adding compost, theres the lynchpin... you are absolutely creating a perfect environment for topdressing, and I doubt you ever have issues with acidity in that regard. So your method is a great one to use, if you topdress.

BUT not all are aware of that, many new growers topdress simply by sprinkling the amendment on top of the soil, in my opinion that's a poor technique.
And as always there are exceptions to that rule as well, an example is the "nitrogen" bat guano, that is usually not an issue to topdress with considering it's water soluble-ness, and the fact that it's relatively "available" to the plant.

It's not a 100% rule, but it is my reasoning behind my not-liking topdressing.
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I ain't got room to turn a hot compost pile successfully in my back yard, I tried it this spring with great frustration, I built a bin 1.2m" with pallets but just didn't have room to swing the fork and have a separate pile of organic waste all over the place, my neighbour's must've thought I was nuts, it was F-ing hard work and I ended up with fire blight, it got quite messy pmsl. That is now being used for slow composting with plenty of leaves to create leaf mould and I honestly don't think I'll need that volume of compost for 2-3 years anyway. I'm just gonna build it up slowly with the best inputs.
The point I'm trying to get to is; could I make my topdressing like a supersoil indoors, eg use already finished compost, amend it with my meals and cook it for a few weeks in a fabric pot. It'd be better than direct topdressing I suppose? I have got a great source for quality compost, it's out of the way, but I work near there occasionally and always pick something up if I'm running low(Who'm I kidding, I have to nip in whenever I'm passing, their meat is quallity too, far superior to supermarkets). Here's a link for any uk growers - http://www.tommytopsoil.com/ .
 
Check muckers mulch out in the link above, love it, used it last time round with great results,couldn't get up there this time round so I've used straw. The ladies are looking slightly better for the same stage this time round, but I put that down to my soil now being better balanced with age (partially credited to the muckers mulch?).

I may complain about the struggle for good amendments, but I can get good soil.
 
DonBrennon said:
I ain't got room to turn a hot compost pile successfully in my back yard, I tried it this spring with great frustration, I built a bin 1.2m" with pallets but just didn't have room to swing the fork and have a separate pile of organic waste all over the place, my neighbour's must've thought I was nuts, it was F-ing hard work and I ended up with fire blight, it got quite messy pmsl. That is now being used for slow composting with plenty of leaves to create leaf mould and I honestly don't think I'll need that volume of compost for 2-3 years anyway. I'm just gonna build it up slowly with the best inputs.
The point I'm trying to get to is; could I make my topdressing like a supersoil indoors, eg use already finished compost, amend it with my meals and cook it for a few weeks in a fabric pot. It'd be better than direct topdressing I suppose? I have got a great source for quality compost, it's out of the way, but I work near there occasionally and always pick something up if I'm running low(Who'm I kidding, I have to nip in whenever I'm passing, their meat is quallity too, far superior to supermarkets). Here's a link for any uk growers - http://www.tommytopsoil.com/ .
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Sure you could recycle some soil to use as a top dressing in a fabric pot or bin as long as you give enough time to let everything break down.
Having a worm farm really makes recycling soil indoors a snap; just add fresh castings, your amendments & compost, hydrate, and let it cook for a month or so.
As far as alternative sources I like to use Jobes 4-4-4 organic spikes. They contain mostly blood & bone meals & are OMRI listed safe for organic soils. I plug one or 2 spikes in each container about a week before flip & that will carry them through to harvest keeping them green & lush with large sticky flowers. I also use a composted chicken manure -Charlie's Compost brand - for fast N and speedy breakdown of recycled root balls. Both can be found in Amazon or at any garden store.
 
greasemonkeymann said:
You mentioned adding compost, theres the lynchpin... you are absolutely creating a perfect environment for topdressing, and I doubt you ever have issues with acidity in that regard. So your method is a great one to use, if you topdress.

BUT not all are aware of that, many new growers topdress simply by sprinkling the amendment on top of the soil, in my opinion that's a poor technique.
And as always there are exceptions to that rule as well, an example is the "nitrogen" bat guano, that is usually not an issue to topdress with considering it's water soluble-ness, and the fact that it's relatively "available" to the plant.

It's not a 100% rule, but it is my reasoning behind my not-liking topdressing.
Click to expand...

Ahh, this is a very good point.. Didn't think about people just throwing some fish bone meal or alfalfa on top of the soil without composting it first... Been doing it for so long now it's just second nature by this point.

I see you've stepped your game up, using the leaf mold now.. I need to get on the band wagon. I'm in the Midwest and I could make a TON of leaf mold with all the trees around..
 
Great discussion guys, I'm learning all the time. I've got a few worm bins going Richard, but I think I F-d up with the bedding. I'd seen vids with people using well composted horse manure and copied them, but then also started adding food scraps, canna leaves, small amounts of amendments, I think it was too much and sent the ph down, I'll be using coco next time (The folk using horse manure prob weren't using anything else). This, coupled with the fact I can only find good dendro's, or aka euro nightcrawlers, meant I was finding worms everywhere (the ones I found went into my 20G pots with plants in, they seem to like it there, and I dread to think where the other escapees got to). The bins are still going, I mixed some good fresh wormcastings in with loads of the little yellow eggs to try and introduce a better microbial colony and a bit of gypsum and some calcified seaweed to try and balance the ph. The smaller worms already in there are mostly still there (I did buy some tiger worms, but could only source them online. They turned up in sealed plastic bags WTF? and looked far from healthy, but I suppose it's possible that some of them survived), and there are the new worms hatching that seem to be stayin put, it does seem to be bigger worms I find going awol (possibly looking for diverse genetics to breed?, I guess they're all pretty closely related in there)

Anyway, Merry Christmas folks :weed:
 
I add a lot of coco & perlite to my worm bin along with some gypsum, oyster flour, and alafalfa meal. Other than that they get just fruit & veggie scraps & occasionally I add crushed egg shells. If you've got worms going awol there's something they don't like in there or it's too hot/cold/wet/dry.
 
DonBrennon said:
Yeah, uk based,sorry about that. I'm already thinking about gettingmy own rabbits, I've got a place for them, but it needs working on to protect from foxes and badgers. Something got in and killed all my mates chickens.

The meals are quite expensive, but I'll only be using minimum amounts to top dress in no till, so £21 for a 5kg bag which would probably last for years isn't too bad imo
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You need some dogs that prefer their chicken cooked lol... I heard that opossum and raccoons can be a problem also, but my dogs keep them chased off... Hell, my dogs had an armadillo in the road last year.
 
DonTesla said:
Yo @Richard Drysift how much alfafa meal do the big homies get in the Ol worm bin??

And what's better/faster, you think, adding it to the worm farm or compost pile, amigo??

Much respect

DT
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I put a handful at a time in the worm bin usually right on top of some previously frozen veg/fruit scraps. Its not really faster because it still takes time for them to eat/poop it plus if you have a tray system it could be weeks for it to reach the bottom. You can always put alfalfa in your recycled mix bin globally which takes about 30 days to disappear; that goes for most dry amendments as well. I put maybe 1 cup per 2 cu ft when I do but usually prefer to let the worms consume it.
 
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