Browning of roots + no slime = ok?

Hi all,

This is my first grow and so far it's going a lot better than I expected it would. I've got 2 strawberry banana plants from DNA genetics reserva privada line, each in a 13 gallon cooler/icebox with about 9 gallons of liquid. They're 1 week into flowering and have filled my 4.5 x 4.5 x 7.5 tent from corner to corner with canopy.

My res temps have been high the whole time due to the weather here, on average about 75 give or take 2 degrees each way.

I'm currently using gh flora trio(grow, micro, bloom), Armor si, diamond nectar, and have just started using great white and liquid kool bloom.

The roots are massive and have been white to off-white/yellow the whole time (2.5 months) however I'm starting to notice browning in at least one area on each root ball, but no slime and no deficiencies or burns on the plants. They're actually really growing almost too well lol


My question is should I be worried if theres no slime? I've got some H202 on the way along with with floralicious plus and going to start adding frozen water bottles to keep temps down

Warm temps and GH make brown roots. If you could chill the temp to 66-68 the roots would be pearl white and blowing out everywhere

Pearl White roots by itself do not have to mean that they are more healthy of will produce bigger crops.
Roots like higher temperatures. More in the region of 22 Celsius/72 Fahrenheit. Even a bit higher is no problem.
For roots; Not saying anything about diseases.

That's what you keep saying but it's the stupidest thing I've ever heard. You act like underneath the soil of the earth it's a toasty 72*F+ for roots. No. It's more like 60-65 and even colder the deeper you go.

We obviously disagree about this.
But I visit commercial hydrogrowers frequently. Not people with 100 square feet, but way more.
They do not care about high temperatures. Even in the warmest of summers, they use no cooling system.
But they do care about low temperatures because it slows down metabolism.

The growing that us here on this forum do, is not the same as in nature.
In nature the difference between day time temperatures and night time temperatures are also way apart.
But who would risk to have an ambient temperature by day of 27 C/ 80 F and by night 17 C/ 62 F ?
In nature it is never dark at night. There are always stars or the moon that give light.
But how many growers have even the smallest light on at lights off?

What we growers do, is not imitate nature in every aspect.
We also don't have rain or storm or whatever.
We try to create the most optimal conditions.
If some formers would be able to warm up the soil their plants grow in, they would.
They know that their harvest would be better.
Of course this is not the same for all plants.

But you see it your way, and I see it my way.
As long as you have great results, it is all fine.
But the dogma that temperatures have to be below a certain level is just scientifically wrong.

I now run 2 side by side hydro systems, just for fun, and a really small set up.
So this does not prove anything, neither is it a really scientific set up.
But in system A the temperature of the water is 18-19 C / 64-66 F.
In system B the temperature of the water is 23-24 C / 73-75 F.
The roots and plants in system B are much better developed.
No proof, but for me that is an indication that the commercial growers do something right.

Keesje said:

We obviously disagree about this.
But I visit commercial hydrogrowers frequently. Not people with 100 square feet, but way more.
They do not care about high temperatures. Even in the warmest of summers, they use no cooling system.
But they do care about low temperatures because it slows down metabolism.

The growing that us here on this forum do, is not the same as in nature.
In nature the difference between day time temperatures and night time temperatures are also way apart.
But who would risk to have an ambient temperature by day of 27 C/ 80 F and by night 17 C/ 62 F ?
In nature it is never dark at night. There are always stars or the moon that give light.
But how many growers have even the smallest light on at lights off?

What we growers do, is not imitate nature in every aspect.
We also don't have rain or storm or whatever.
We try to create the most optimal conditions.
If some formers would be able to warm up the soil their plants grow in, they would.
They know that their harvest would be better.
Of course this is not the same for all plants.

But you see it your way, and I see it my way.
As long as you have great results, it is all fine.
But the dogma that temperatures have to be below a certain level is just scientifically wrong.

I now run 2 side by side hydro systems, just for fun, and a really small set up.
So this does not prove anything, neither is it a really scientific set up.
But in system A the temperature of the water is 18-19 C / 64-66 F.
In system B the temperature of the water is 23-24 C / 73-75 F.
The roots and plants in system B are much better developed.
No proof, but for me that is an indication that the commercial growers do something right.

Click to expand...

In NATURE 1 foot under the ground is basically the same temp ALL YEAR ROUND. Absolutely at further depths like 6'. It's a constant 60*

Writing with capitals does not help.

Where in nature is it pitch dark every night of the year?
Where in nature is there always a difference of 5, 6, 7, 8 degrees Celsius between night and day?
Still us growers make sure that we maintain those circumstances as much as possible.

In greenhouses they grow perfect and tasty tomatoes and cucumbers on rockwool with much higher temperatures then what you suggest is the only ideal temperature.
Or do you think that when the ambient temperature in a greenhouse is 22-24 C / 72-75 F that the Rockwool slab has a lower temperature?

Besides you have to do more research for temperatures under the ground.
Perhaps in some countries, like for example Germany, the temperature under the surface stays the same year round.
But first of all we are then talking about depths of more then 1 meter. Not at 30 centimeters (1 foot)
In other countries however the temperature of soil is not that low.
For example a study done in Nigeria shows that the temperature of their soil at 90 cm deep (about 3 feet) is around 27 to 29 degrees Celsius. That is 80 till 85 degrees Fahrenheit. And even during the day the temperature at that depth changes.
They grow perfect crops there.

For those people who think I talk BS, here is the link of the article that was published in the American Journal of Environmental Engineering.
http://article.sapub.org/10.5923.j.ajee.20120205.05.html

Also look at Google Maps for the towns in Nigeria called Woji, Yenegoa and Alakahia, where they did the tests. It is not a desert but beautifully green.

So yes, roots grow in lower temperature, but they grow as well in high temperatures.
And often better, as many studies show.
Cucumbers grown on 22 degrees are slightly bigger then those grown on 21 degrees for example.

Just today I discussed with someone about the deficiency of Magnesium.
He told me that your root temperature has to be 20 C / 68 F or higher.
I asked for a source and he sended me one of those Info Couriers by Canna.

There it states "When growing indoors, keep the root temperature between 20 - 25 degrees Celsius."
They are experts in the field op fertilizers, but of course you don't have to trust them.

http://www.canna-uk.com/info-courier_magnesium

In the Dutch version - which is perhaps a bit more comprehensive - it also states that ''At a lower root temperature, the roots are less active in the absorption of nutrients, at the expense of magnesium."
That is Google Translate

Flora trio makes your roots brown. I would never use that shit again. I also hate the taste of the weed it produces.

Ok so ive done a full clean out of both reservoirs, and ive added 1.5ml of 50% h202 per 8 litres that was 3 days ago, but they dont seem to be getting any better, is that dosage low? The plants look healthy as hell and have buds growing everywhere now and still stretching, no deficiencies at all, but on my biggest one there are small clumps of brown gooey root that i can easily pull off the root ball. Is this just dead root that will not get any better regardless of the H202 strength? or is this not working an i need to up the dosage? ive been keeping water temps around 72, and lower, give or take a few degrees on each side, via frozen water bottles that i change when ever the lights turn on. Please help!

Keesje said:

Writing with capitals does not help.

Where in nature is it pitch dark every night of the year?
Where in nature is there always a difference of 5, 6, 7, 8 degrees Celsius between night and day?
Still us growers make sure that we maintain those circumstances as much as possible.

In greenhouses they grow perfect and tasty tomatoes and cucumbers on rockwool with much higher temperatures then what you suggest is the only ideal temperature.
Or do you think that when the ambient temperature in a greenhouse is 22-24 C / 72-75 F that the Rockwool slab has a lower temperature?

Besides you have to do more research for temperatures under the ground.
Perhaps in some countries, like for example Germany, the temperature under the surface stays the same year round.
But first of all we are then talking about depths of more then 1 meter. Not at 30 centimeters (1 foot)
In other countries however the temperature of soil is not that low.
For example a study done in Nigeria shows that the temperature of their soil at 90 cm deep (about 3 feet) is around 27 to 29 degrees Celsius. That is 80 till 85 degrees Fahrenheit. And even during the day the temperature at that depth changes.
They grow perfect crops there.

For those people who think I talk BS, here is the link of the article that was published in the American Journal of Environmental Engineering.


Also look at Google Maps for the towns in Nigeria called Woji, Yenegoa and Alakahia, where they did the tests. It is not a desert but beautifully green.

So yes, roots grow in lower temperature, but they grow as well in high temperatures.
And often better, as many studies show.
Cucumbers grown on 22 degrees are slightly bigger then those grown on 21 degrees for example.

Click to expand...

Why am i getting root rot then? ive got 2 powerful air pumps running 6 air stones, 3 in each reservoir. Ill try anything, ive put so much work into it, and theyre now flowering beautifully i dont want to mess this up after such a successful first grow!

I don't know why you get root rot.
There can be several reasons.
People who keep there temperatures low also get root rot.
Even commercial growers get root rot.
They are still studying it. Some scientists think that root rot in hydro systems does exist more often because of the shortage of bacteria.
Some also investigate whether the cause may lie in the fact of bringing air in the water (so not oxygen, but air and everything it holds)
Maybe your roots get too much of a shock every time you change your reservoir.
Maybe it is not even root rot that you have. If your plants look healthy...
There is no simple answer and no simple solution.

But perhaps you could try lowering the temperature and that could help you solve the root rot.
Perhaps in your case a lower temperature will help. Lower temperature is not bad (as some people think I am saying) it just slows down metabolism.
A root temperature for a healthy plant between 20 C - 25 C / 68 F - 77 F is normally great for roots

Some people also have benefit from Heisenberg Tea.
Also products like Pond Saver can help a lot.
https://www.gemplers.com/docs/IS/G40305INSTRCT.pdf
There are several of those products on the market.
I would go for a product like Pond Saver myself.
Easy to add, not smelly at all. But it is just my opinion.

I myself would never use H2O2 in my system.
I did read some studies where they suggest that it will kill all bacteria, both good and bad.
A lot of commercial growers abandoned it as well many years ago.
And if I would use it, I would get a product like Hydroguard.
Not saying it does not work, or that it does work. Just saying that even commercial growers are not sure if it helps or hurts the roots.

I don't have the solution for your root rot, and I would not trust anybody who claims he has THE solution.
There are just too many variables.
If I read how certain people here on this forum are about the exact and only circumstances a plant can grow... I am amazed that they are not all multi-millionaires, because in the commercial growers world people are still struggling to find the right way and the perfect circumstances.

I read some interesting articles lately about what causes root rot.
When I am doing research about that, I stay away from forums about caanabis, because they mainly are like parrots.

But some of the interesting facts I found...

Cold water on the plant, or at the roots, can lead to growth inhibition. And here again, weak parasites like Pythium will strike more easily.
It is a Google Translate of an article by a Dutch Greenhouse organisation. They state that you have to be careful when you give your plants water. Make sure the water is not too cold. It also causes a shock to the roots.

Phytophthora
This fungus is a primary pathogen. This means that it can infect healthy plants. Phytophthora infects the roots after which it can cause rot in the stem base. The spores germinate quickly at a low temperature shock caused by cold water. Because of this, a Phytophthora infection often occurs during cold days / nights. The spores of Phytophthora form swarm tracks that can easily spread through water and splashing soil particles. The development is promoted by moist substrate and temperatures of 18-30 ° C.

Fusarium Solani
Another primary pathogen is Fusarium Solani. The symptoms are similar to those of Phytophthora. Both fungi first infect the roots, after which they can affect the stem foot. The development of Fusarium Solani proceeds fastest at higher temperatures between 20 and 30 ° C.

Rhizoctonia solani
Rhizoctonia can infect both the roots and the stem foot. Often the damage starts on the border between soil and air. Here the stem is constricted so that plants fall over. Seedlings in particular are very sensitive to this fungus. In contrast with Fusarium, Rhizoctonia develops best at a lower temperature (15-18 ° C).

Thielaviopsis basicola
This fungus is also called Chalara Elegans. Brown constricted spots can be seen on the roots. In the event of severe damage, a constriction can occur on the boundary between soil and air. In this case, the infestation can be confused with a Rhizoctonia infection. The leaf axles can also be browned, which can be confused with a Phytophthora attack. The fungus grows well at temperatures of 25-28 ° C but can infect the plants more easily at temperatures of 15-20 ° C. Problems usually arise during cool days.

Pythium
Pythium is a secondary fungus that can only affect weakened or very young plants. At the roots affected by this fungus, the bark is detached from the vascular bundles. Because this fungus develops very quickly, after steaming (with little competition from other fungi) problems can arise in young plants. Pythium develops optimally in wet conditions and at a temperature of 20 ° C. Fluctuations in the EC also promote the development of Pythium.

All the above paragraphs show that there is not 1 cause for root rot.
Even commercial growers sometimes don't know what causes root rot in their systems.
What they do is have the fungus or rot analyzed. DNA analasys. So when they know what disease they have, they can change the growing circumstances to prevent that specific disease; Lowering the temperature or making it higher, a more stable EC, making sure their feeding water is already on a higher temperature.
All the above shows that there is not 1 cause and also not 1 solution for root rot.
All who say there is, are wrong and ignore science.

Keesje said:

I read some interesting articles lately about what causes root rot.
When I am doing research about that, I stay away from forums about caanabis, because they mainly are like parrots.

But some of the interesting facts I found...

Cold water on the plant, or at the roots, can lead to growth inhibition. And here again, weak parasites like Pythium will strike more easily.
It is a Google Translate of an article by a Dutch Greenhouse organisation. They state that you have to be careful when you give your plants water. Make sure the water is not too cold. It also causes a shock to the roots.

Phytophthora
This fungus is a primary pathogen. This means that it can infect healthy plants. Phytophthora infects the roots after which it can cause rot in the stem base. The spores germinate quickly at a low temperature shock caused by cold water. Because of this, a Phytophthora infection often occurs during cold days / nights. The spores of Phytophthora form swarm tracks that can easily spread through water and splashing soil particles. The development is promoted by moist substrate and temperatures of 18-30 ° C.

Fusarium Solani
Another primary pathogen is Fusarium Solani. The symptoms are similar to those of Phytophthora. Both fungi first infect the roots, after which they can affect the stem foot. The development of Fusarium Solani proceeds fastest at higher temperatures between 20 and 30 ° C.

Rhizoctonia solani
Rhizoctonia can infect both the roots and the stem foot. Often the damage starts on the border between soil and air. Here the stem is constricted so that plants fall over. Seedlings in particular are very sensitive to this fungus. In contrast with Fusarium, Rhizoctonia develops best at a lower temperature (15-18 ° C).

Thielaviopsis basicola
This fungus is also called Chalara Elegans. Brown constricted spots can be seen on the roots. In the event of severe damage, a constriction can occur on the boundary between soil and air. In this case, the infestation can be confused with a Rhizoctonia infection. The leaf axles can also be browned, which can be confused with a Phytophthora attack. The fungus grows well at temperatures of 25-28 ° C but can infect the plants more easily at temperatures of 15-20 ° C. Problems usually arise during cool days.

Pythium
Pythium is a secondary fungus that can only affect weakened or very young plants. At the roots affected by this fungus, the bark is detached from the vascular bundles. Because this fungus develops very quickly, after steaming (with little competition from other fungi) problems can arise in young plants. Pythium develops optimally in wet conditions and at a temperature of 20 ° C. Fluctuations in the EC also promote the development of Pythium.

All the above paragraphs show that there is not 1 cause for root rot.
Even commercial growers sometimes don't know what causes root rot in their systems.
What they do is have the fungus or rot analyzed. DNA analasys. So when they know what disease they have, they can change the growing circumstances to prevent that specific disease; Lowering the temperature or making it higher, a more stable EC, making sure their feeding water is already on a higher temperature.
All the above shows that there is not 1 cause and also not 1 solution for root rot.
All who say there is, are wrong and ignore science.

Click to expand...

Thanks for sharing...very helpful

So the plants are growing great, roots aren't milky white, so what's the problem? I went away from GH nutes for a while because I thought I wanted nice white roots. Now I'm back to liking Gh again and the brown roots don't concern me. My root temps hover around 70-72 which always makes me nervous but I never get root rot. I like to run my fingers through the roots like I used to do with my hippy hair. I wouldn't get carried away adding too much stuff to the Lucas formulas. Just keep it simple. I haven't had real root rot but I assume it smells like when I get a plugged air stone once in a great while. If the roots are a little brown but not smelly they should be fine.

70's natureboy said:

So the plants are growing great, roots aren't milky white, so what's the problem? I went away from GH nutes for a while because I thought I wanted nice white roots. Now I'm back to liking Gh again and the brown roots don't concern me. My root temps hover around 70-72 which always makes me nervous but I never get root rot. I like to run my fingers through the roots like I used to do with my hippy hair. I wouldn't get carried away adding too much stuff to the Lucas formulas. Just keep it simple. I haven't had real root rot but I assume it smells like when I get a plugged air stone once in a great while. If the roots are a little brown but not smelly they should be fine.

Click to expand...

You are absolutely right.

Here is a pic of a commercial hydrogrower. They grow hundreds of square feet of different crops and plants.
Do those roots look crispy white?

The temperature in their bassin fluctuates with the season. They never, ever cool it down.
As the bassin is only a foot deep, the water temperature is not that far aport from the ambient temperature. Even during extremely hot summers they don't cool it down.
They also touch the roots with their hands and they walk in the bassin with boots with some dirt on it.
The only oxygen they add, is circulating the bassin for 5 or 10 minutes every hour.
Also they do not care to much about light getting into the bassin.

Not saying these are all perfect conditions for cannabis, but I am under the impression that a lot of growers on the forum are exaggerating things.
And at the same time, neglecting other things.
Cannabis is not a special plant, seen from a biological perspective.

Ok so 1 week before i made any changes as far as battling root rot (other than regular great white use), they were drinking litres of water every day, and the ppm was dropping daily even though the water was dropping greatly, which means they were eating well, as well as drinking well. then the root rot started getting worse, and they pretty much stopped eating and stopped drinking. The water level would drop slightly over the course of a few days, and ppm would increase which means they really werent eating. Growth has also slowed, and buds are no longer exploding everywhere, and have been the same size for almost 2 weeks. Its definitely root rot, my root ball was massive on each plant, now its not really a ball, its just floating everywhere, the ends of the roots are less affected, and there are BIG (3cm in diameter) white roots coming from bottom of the pot, but there are parts that are very thick with fine mushy brown roots in the middle (definitely root rot, i can pull the brown gunk, which is mostly dead, fine roots straight off without trying), coming from the bottom of the pot, mostly the parts that are thick and on the inside of the ball are affected. I did a water change, cleaned out both reses, and did the above h202 dosage, 4 days later and it just got worse, so i did another res change and dosed with 0.3ml/L (1.13ml/Gallon) bleach and kept ppm to 500. On the second day i noticed wilting on both plants, but roots look slightly better, noticed a lot of small 2cm in length, fine root fragments floating around in the water. On the 3rd day i dosed again with 0.2ml/L (0.758ml/Gallon) bleach. Now 2 days later, one plant looks to be doing better, and not wilting, but still not drinking or eating, the other is wilting even worse. Today when the lights come on, I'm planning on filling up another larger res/storage container with PH'ed water, and 0.1ml/L bleach (which is supposed to be a maintainance dose) and really washing out the roots in it, pulling off all the dead mushy root parts deep in the root ball, and dunking, and washing the roots untill anything that will come off, comes off. ill then do a res change and clean, and run 0.1ml/L bleach.

This all comes from me scouring the internet for hours looking for a solution. People have reccommended h202, and a bunch of other things, but tbh from reading what has worked for other people in my position, bleach/chlorine looked to be the way to go to save them and get them through the next few weeks of flowering.

Any hints, tips, or criticisms are welcome

(Edit: Let me also point out that for a good 2.5 - 3 months my roots were always pearly white, even while in brown GH nutrients and growing constantly. I got a small patch of brown on each root ball, and it spread everywhere. ive got no light leaks, my temps are slightly higher than id like, but i cant control that now.)

Ok, so yesterday was better, im doing this as a Log for anyone else with root rot problems late into their grow that they NEED to save, if this works then its something you can try. Honestly i think the h202 did more damage than help.

The res of my biggest girl stunk. The water was brown and there was brown residue around the lip of where the water level was in the res.
So next thing i did just last night was fill up a larger res with 32L of water, 0.3ml bleach per L, and PH'ed it to around 5.7
I took my worst affected plant out of the tent, and dunked the roots in this res, and pretty much washed them. Dunked them in there over and over again, and pulled as much brown mushy dead root off as i could, the water was clear when i started, by the time i finished, it was dark brown with dead root that clogged my drain when i emptied it. I put the plant in an empty bucket, dumped the cleaning res, refilled it with ph'ed bleached water again, and repeated the process again. When i was finished, there was nothing but healthy white roots. Some of the root was still offwhite or slightly discouloured, but if it wasnt dead and coming off in my hand, then i left it on there. It'll repair itself i hope. I dumped her res that she was growing in, cleaned EVERYTHING all out with strong bleach. Filled her back up, with 0.1ml/L bleach and low ppm nutes (400ppm).

Will repeat this with my second girl tonight as it was a lot of work last night and i didnt have time.