Commercial/Medical Hydroponic growers.

What medium are you guys using ? and has anybody tried not using any medium at all ?

Ive tried them all,hydroton,coco,lava rock,hydrorock,rockwool,pea gravel,perlite mixed with vermiculite,straight perlite ect,we even bought the super expensive flytocell that Albfuct uses & every last medium had its own set of difficulties but all mediums shared one difficulty which is increased humidity levels.

We grow multiple flood tables ( 8-4x8s ) so simply decreasing flood lengths & the number of floods isnt enough,we ended up saying to hell with any medium at all & are having excellent results.

With all the shit that comes with wet mediums how have you overcome the humidity & powdery mildew that goes hand in hand with wet ass mediums ?

Also,the bulk of my grow experience is in soil & ive only been doing hydroponics full time for 3 years now ,i do realize that im a long ways from knowing everything but with the excellent success we are having without using any medium at all why is it so rare to see growers not using any medium at all like we are ?

We are using a medium in the net pots for plant stability,the tables are where we have eleminated all medium.

Lets talk mediums.

panhead said:

What medium are you guys using ? and has anybody tried not using any medium at all ?

Ive tried them all,hydroton,coco,lava rock,hydrorock,rockwool,pea gravel,perlite mixed with vermiculite,straight perlite ect,we even bought the super expensive flytocell that Albfuct uses & every last medium had its own set of difficulties but all mediums shared one difficulty which is increased humidity levels.

We grow multiple flood tables ( 8-4x8s ) so simply decreasing flood lengths & the number of floods isnt enough,we ended up saying to hell with any medium at all & are having excellent results.

With all the shit that comes with wet mediums how have you overcome the humidity & powdery mildew that goes hand in hand with wet ass mediums ?

Also,the bulk of my grow experience is in soil & ive only been doing hydroponics full time for 3 years now ,i do realize that im a long ways from knowing everything but with the excellent success we are having without using any medium at all why is it so rare to see growers not using any medium at all like we are ?

Lets talk mediums.

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Well im not shure about the post by torontoa looks like spam, ok no medium im very interested panhead
Can you go in to detail how you are able to do this? I hope your not talking aero! Also pics would be helpful
To understand.

Anywhich way you go you will have problems. Its the individual grower that is fucked not the system.

hellraizer30 said:

Well im not shure about the post by torontoa looks like spam, ok no medium im very interested panhead
Can you go in to detail how you are able to do this? I hope your not talking aero! Also pics would be helpful
To understand.

Click to expand...

Yeah whats up with single post toronto ?

Im not talking aero,I do flood & drain in standard plastic flood tables,the tables would then be partially filled with a medium & flodded several times each day,the type medium dictated how often we flooded.

What we ended up doing was elemimting all the medium in the table,then covering the tops of the tables with black & white panda plastic,white side up ofcourse

Now pictute the table as having a solid lid on top,this is the way the plastic leaves the table looking.

We cut tight fitting holes using an empty net pot as a guide then put the net pots containing the clones in the pre cut holes.

The panda plastic now serves as the medium in keeping the root mass from drying out,it also acts as a medium by blocking any light from touching the roots.

We increased flood times from once every 12 hours to flooding every hour on the hour.

The space in between the bottom of the table & the plastic retains 100% humidity levels between floods & keeps the root mass healthy & pearly white.

Im still trying to figure out how to post pics on this smart phone do dad that replaced my pc,when i do i will post up some pics.

BBYY said:

Anywhich way you go you will have problems. Its the individual grower that is fucked not the system.

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Not so,its easy as pie to grow dope in small gardens but try it on a very large scale then tell us how fucked the grower is.

Was there a point to your post ?

Im tracking on what your saying on thing what you using to hold the plant in place,
Trelis or a fabbed stake trying to invision how a plant with no medium can stay upright.

Did you try sealing the tray off when you were using clay or rocks?

hellraizer30 said:

Im tracking on what your saying on thing what you using to hold the plant in place,
Trelis or a fabbed stake trying to invision how a plant with no medium can stay upright.

Click to expand...

Sorry for leaving out a very important detail & i can see how that detail would confuse the shit out of anybody doing hydro.

We do use medium in the net pots only,right now we are trying out 2 different mediums just so the plant has something to grasp to.

We are using natural sponge material in some pots & hydrorock in others,theese 2 seem so far to offer the best stability for the plant,the light mediums like perlite offered zero stability,even hydroton was inferior to a simple sponge so thats why we are trying sponges vs hydrorock.

The flood table itself is where we eleminated using any medium at all.

Muffy said:

Did you try sealing the tray off when you were using clay or rocks?

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After trying a ton of mediums thats exactly what we did,we sealed the top of the tables with panda plastic,what we got was mushy roots that were also seriously hit with brown out,the plastic covering the medium kept the medium so moist that even when we cut the flood intervals to once every 36 hours it was so wet with stagnant moisture the root mass was not healthy,not to mention a very slow growth rate from such an infrequent feeding schedule.

We all know that the purpose of filling the table with medium is so the roots are kept moist & to protect the root mass from the light,if you just put the net pots filled with medium in a table with no medium the light & dry air will prune the roots.

For us this whole thing is about root retention & having the biggest healthy root mass,at the same time not create a humidity problem that ends up with a powdery mildew infestation.

When thinking about this remember were talking about very large surface areas of medium,when you add up the surface area of all 8 tables were dealing with well over 250 sq ft of wet surface area & mass evaporation.

i was planning on trying this same thing if i was going to stick with the tables, i got a few of the botanicare tray lids for a few tables and i was going to use small net pots filled with a little hydroton and the rapid rooter the cutting was in and the lid of course would suspend the plant up away from the bed leaving plenty of room for large root development. now i never got around to trying this method as i was afraid it would dry the roots out but with the increased flood times (duh) would have made allot of sense lol. this would greatly reduce the amount of hydroton used and could allow for a larger root mass and of course along with that a larger yield. i am assuming this has been working out well for you. cool stuff man and the post in my thread about the geothermal water cooling is great and i would attempt it if i wasnt growing on a second story. cool stuff my friend i like.

drgreentm said:

i was planning on trying this same thing if i was going to stick with the tables, i got a few of the botanicare tray lids for a few tables and i was going to use small net pots filled with a little hydroton and the rapid rooter the cutting was in and the lid of course would suspend the plant up away from the bed leaving plenty of room for large root development. now i never got around to trying this method as i was afraid it would dry the roots out but with the increased flood times (duh) would have made allot of sense lol. this would greatly reduce the amount of hydroton used and could allow for a larger root mass and of course along with that a larger yield. i am assuming this has been working out well for you. cool stuff man and the post in my thread about the geothermal water cooling is great and i would attempt it if i wasnt growing on a second story. cool stuff my friend i like.

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Hey doc,we thought about using the factory made tray lids at first but both my partner & myself are kinda frugal ,it pisses us off how much manufacturers charge for accessories,the factory lids for our tables were around $200 each & we woulda needed 8 of them.

Anyhow we are having excellent results with the panda white poly plastic ,in several tables we are on the 3rd grow reusing the same plastic as it wipes down spotless.

The root mass looks like a DWC root mass & are from one foot to 18 inches long past the net pots,with a flood every hour the roots stay perfectly moist,other benifits we have found out is damm near zero chance of powdery mildew in the dense canopy where it normally hit us, the overall humidity in the room is back at respectable levels as well.

It also keeps the table spotless durring the grow,even the drains stay free of debris except for the occasonial roots that get past the root block in the drain area,it makes cleaning the tables a breeze .

The jury is still out on the sponges were using as the medium in a table,it seems that the sponges are very much like rockwool in the early stages of the grow,they hold a bit too much water for my tastes & may pose a stem rott threat,i think we might modify the sponges & take some sponge material away from the stem areas on the next grow.

Sooner or later ill figure out how to use this machine to
post pics & i will post a few of the set up.

panhead said:

Hey doc,we thought about using the factory made tray lids at first but both my partner & myself are kinda frugal ,it pisses us off how much manufacturers charge for accessories,the factory lids for our tables were around $200 each & we woulda needed 8 of them.

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i hear ya man and i would definitely suggest to just make your own as it is much cheaper and these ones are not the strongest in the world (as i would want to try to suspend them in the lid) so if i decide to go back to my flood tables i will be making some from plywood next time glad i only bought 2 lol.

panhead said:

Anyhow we are having excellent results with the panda white poly plastic ,in several tables we are on the 3rd grow reusing the same plastic as it wipes down spotless.

The root mass looks like a DWC root mass & are from one foot to 18 inches long past the net pots,with a flood every hour the roots stay perfectly moist,other benifits we have found out is damm near zero chance of powdery mildew in the dense canopy where it normally hit us, the overall humidity in the room is back at respectable levels as well.

It also keeps the table spotless durring the grow,even the drains stay free of debris except for the occasonial roots that get past the root block in the drain area,it makes cleaning the tables a breeze .

The jury is still out on the sponges were using as the medium in a table,it seems that the sponges are very much like rockwool in the early stages of the grow,they hold a bit too much water for my tastes & may pose a stem rott threat,i think we might modify the sponges & take some sponge material away from the stem areas on the next grow.

Sooner or later ill figure out how to use this machine to
post pics & i will post a few of the set up.

Click to expand...

sounds good looking forward to the pics.

pan. do you water at night? how do you fasten your plastic to the trays? at what week do the roots exit the pots? how many plants per table do you run? if i had two 4x8's could i set up a perpetual for 4 plants a week.. any tips on a set up like this.. im converting from al. to pan. due to counts work etc.. lol thanks for your ideas

why dont you try coco made my life as a medical grower sooo much easier. and my plants are much happier

it seems too much like soil growing to me. i like the idea of 24 floods a day and the tray almost being a dwc hybrid. care to elaborate on why you like coco so much. i couldnt find anything in your links.

doniawon said:

it seems too much like soil growing to me. i like the idea of 24 floods a day and the tray almost being a dwc hybrid. care to elaborate on why you like coco so much. i couldnt find anything in your links.

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I didnt like coco infact i hated it,assloads of work with that stuff plus it added to humidity levels.

Something for the guy who says i should convert to coco to think about,did you read the thread ?when you add up the sq footage of our tables were talking well over 200 sq foot,thats alot of wet area with evaporation, how would coco benifit me ?coco only added to the problem & offered us zero benifits.

DONIWON, i think the table ends up being more of a flood & drain aeroponic hybrid vs a dwc hybrid,but now that you bring it up there are some dwc variations & simularities in there as well.

The more refined method of flooding we have adopted is one flood an hour all the way until heavy bud stage,then we flood twice an hour durring lights on & leave it at once an hour for dark period,the plants love the extra feeding.

Im never going back to a standard flood table,i allways wondered why manufacturers made lids for tables,now i know,the nutrient mist or fog that stays between the lid & table keeps feeding 24/7,something we have just realized over the last few months is how different the roots develop,the root systems are covered in very fine little hairs all over them,i checked some pics i had of the older tables & those fine hairs were not on the roots in this quantity.

doniawon said:

pan. do you water at night? how do you fasten your plastic to the trays? at what week do the roots exit the pots? how many plants per table do you run? if i had two 4x8's could i set up a perpetual for 4 plants a week.. any tips on a set up like this.. im converting from al. to pan. due to counts work etc.. lol thanks for your ideas

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Hey bud.

Fastening the plastic is easy,its keeping it from sagging thats a bitch,we ended up making supports for the plastic so its like a toneau cover for a truck.

We used pvc plumbing pipe & cut peices to fit on the ledge at the top of the table,we used 5 pcs of pvc per table,then lay the plastic loosley over the table & roughly square up the corners,then clamp one corner of the table on a short side & go to the other end & pull plastic tight & clamp,then go to the other side in the middle of the table & pull the plastic tight & clamp,then work around the table giving the plastic a tug tightening it up & clamping it down,we use approx 20 clamps per table,the pvc pipe & the clamps keep it tight & flat for months with rigorous use on the table.

We then use an empty net pot & trace around the bottom of the pot with a permanent marker,when cutting the holes thru the plastic cut them about 1 inch smaller than the circle you traced in marker,this keeps everything tight & snug for months.

Plant count is up to you,i dont like to give out specific counts but its really up to tje grower,i would say you could fit 50 plants per 4x8 table using 5 inch net pots,i dont do that many in a table for legal reasons as our plant count meets state guidelines.

We cut large stout clones from woody branches making sure cuttings are 6 to 8 inches long,after the cuttings root we veg until the plants are a foot high,this takes from 10 to 14 days,at that time some roots are allready poking out of the pots,we then transfer pots to bud tables.

After inserting the pots we use scrap plastic cut in squares to seal the pot completely under plastic so the humidity stays at 100% at all times.

For covering a 5 inch pot with a plant in it you cut a 10 inch square of plastic,cut a hole dead center,then make a cut starting from inside the hole to the outer edge of the square,this allows you to wrap the plastic around the plant to cover the pot,then we tape down the squares using white electrical tape,this step with the squates isnt a must but it does help with keeping the table spotless & humidity levels at max.

We set the table dead flat so the flutes in the table allways hold a little water,the constant floods wont let the water stagnate nor alge to grow,we then set the timers to flood once an hour for a 15 minute flood,we flood day & night once an hour.

We have a 10 day transition period after we start 12/12 before we switch to 100% bloom nutes,we keep flood cycles the same in transition.

When the buds show heavy budding at the 3rd week we increase the lights on floods to twice an hour with 2 seperate 15 minute flood times an hour,one 15 minute flood at the top of the hour & a 2nd 15 minute flood at the half hour mark,when its light out we keep the floods at once an hour,we saw no benifit from running 2 floods an hour with the lights off but we surely see the benifit from 2 floods an hour with lights on in heavy bud,just make sure the buds are packing on weight fast before adding the extra flood,also be sure the nutrient water is highly oxygenated seeing the roots are submerged so much.

The clips i rounded up i got from home depot for 3 for $1,then are squeeze clamps like you would use to seal up a bag of potatoe chips,the tips of the clamp on the clamp end are coated with green plastic so they wont tear the plastic up.

Were around the 12 month mark with our 1st table & the plastic is still tip top shape,the little squares we cover the net pots with need to be reapplied at the start of a new grow & thats it,the plastic is so sturdy we regulary wipe the plastic clean with bleach water durring the grow to keep it as reflective as possible until the canopy blocks any light from hitting it.

If i can help you set up let me know how i can help,we have had stellar results with this system & i can give more info on our process if needed.

One more bit of info for doniwon.

You might want to rethink having multiple harvests out of a single flood table,if a nutrient deffiency developes or a nute burn starts in one group of plants you will have a very hard time correcting the problem,EXAMPLE,one set of plants might get a nitro def while the other plants are perfect,correcting the problem in one set of plants could very well cause a problem in the healthy plants.

Your best bet is to run the table all at once to be in total control.

thanks pan im going to do 'exactly' what you guys have done.. sounds simple but the flood times, how you cut holes a little smaller, how to fasten the plastic proper etc.. all trial and error, all very valuabe info as far as time patience and money is concerned (stress).. I can only have 50 plants and i have 2 4x8's, and trying to go perpetual. How would you go about this pan?????myabe just place 3,4 plants in a week and let them finish? Or should i make the first 4x8 table a 1-4 week table and the other 4x8 a 4-8 week tabe? this way i can increase the PPM and flood cycles on the 4-8 week table. i understand the roots mingle so i was thinking as soon as they hit there holes in the 4-8 week table they would simply stay put and finish? sound do able/or too good to be true? could i take a 4 week old plant out of the hole with out damaging the roots to set in its finishing hole in the "finishing" 4x8?? thanks pan sorry if im confusing.

I have these already 6" x 7" tall.. side drain and a net style bottom.. will these work 20 per 4x8?? two kw's per 4x8 .. 15" starts hopeing for 2 ounces a plant.? or do i need a bigger pot? big pots not necessary here right?