Disappointed in the size of my root ball

Just finished chopping down and stripping the fan leaves off my first full 4x4 and I'm disappointed in the size of my root ball after I knocked it from my pots. I worry that the smaller root system means my plants weren't uptaking nutrients like they should and it's made them not reach their full potential. Though I am still relatively pleased with my first harvest (unsampled, at least) I wanna do better.

It seemed that the root ball was about the size of the 3 gallon fabric pot I'd had them in vegetative state, rather than the 7 they were transplanted into. I did transplant them the same day I flipped to 12/12, is this the issue? Should I give it a week or two after a transplant?

Grow info:
Sohum soil
Fabric pots (3gallons transplanted to 7 immediately before flip)
Half dose Terp Tea weekly during flower
MarsHydro TSW3000 light
elev8 genetics: gelato cake and gorilla cookies. the root ball was the same size on all of them.
I do use some mykos when I transplant.

Any advice? I'm cleaning up my flowering tent and washing my pots right now, hoping to transplant and take clones this evening.

Were you using fabric pots?

Do you have pics of the root ball? Curious what your yield was in the 4x4 and the Mars hydro tsw3000!

Homegrown Hero said:

Do you have pics of the root ball? Curious what your yield was in the 4x4 and the Mars hydro tsw3000!

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I didn't take pics of the root ball, sorry. I literally just chopped the thing down, I'll update with yield in a week or two if I remember or you remind me. I'm super curious myself!

SnidleyBluntash said:

Were you using fabric pots?

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Indeed I was using fabric pots. I'd have sworn I put that in OP but I guess I forgot it, lol. I'll edit.

Smaller fabric pots tend to air prune roots naturally. Which is ok for coco and other methods but organic soil prefer plastic or larger fabrics. 15 plus gallons.

green_machine_two9er said:

Smaller fabric pots tend to air prune roots naturally. Which is ok for coco and other methods but organic soil prefer plastic or larger fabrics. 15 plus gallons.

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Oh really? Well, I can't fit enough 15 gallon pots into my tent to home all my vegging girls right now so that's probably out for this cycle.

Is it less efficient to grow in a 7 gallon cloth pot vs a 7 gallon ceramic / plastic / what-have-you pot, in my circumstances?

The yield, as my first full tent and not having dried or trimmed it yet, was roughly what I imagined I'd get from this run. I'm not really trying to track down an issue, more just surprised at how small my root ball was when I popped it out of my pot.

RadicalRoss said:

Oh really? Well, I can't fit enough 15 gallon pots into my tent to home all my vegging girls right now so that's probably out for this cycle.

Is it less efficient to grow in a 7 gallon cloth pot vs a 7 gallon ceramic / plastic / what-have-you pot, in my circumstances?

The yield, as my first full tent and not having dried or trimmed it yet, was roughly what I imagined I'd get from this run. I'm not really trying to track down an issue, more just surprised at how small my root ball was when I popped it out of my pot.

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Yeah if space is an issue then I would go for non fabric for sure. More roots more fruits! Healthy football from dialed in moisture levels, consistent which is easier with plastic pots.
Even more helpful is a mulch layer, something to works as a moisture lock on the top layer of pots. I like top dresses of ewc every few weeks to help with moisture and just constantly boosting beneficials

I'll probably just end up doing the 7 gallon cloth pots again this cycle, but after this I'll probably have a better idea of which phenos I'm going to keep running, and should have clones of them. Maybe next tent I'll test clones directly, 7 gallon fabric vs 7 gallon traditional.

I got some nice looking buds from this tent, though!

RadicalRoss said:

I'll probably just end up doing the 7 gallon cloth pots again this cycle, but after this I'll probably have a better idea of which phenos I'm going to keep running, and should have clones of them. Maybe next tent I'll test clones directly, 7 gallon fabric vs 7 gallon traditional.

I got some nice looking buds from this tent, though!

View attachment 4797447

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Nice those look great!

Same thing happen to me in fabric pots, I believe the requirement to have perfect watering and soil moisture exists in fabric pots. Because the outside dries out so fast.

If you're using fabric pots again this time around you might try changing one out for a similarly sized plastic pot and see if there is a noticeable difference in growth. Might be an easy test without putting all your eggs in one basket.

Dont obsess too much about the root ball... If you inoculated w/myco the roots may not really need to stretch to the edge of the container because that’s what the fungal hyphae do. Mycorrhizae attached to the root system, absorbs water and nutrients, & delivers them to the root system which in turn allows it to survive. Once the roots dry up the hyphea can no longer support itself and dies off. Hyphea can go for miles under an old forest; roots only need to develop deep/wide enough to pull whatever the plant needs. So while “big roots make big fruits” is mostly true a big ass root ball does not always equate to big ass bud. The size of the root ball itself has very little to do with how effectively it can absorb nutrients but the size of the plant in relation to the container size does have sway over the potential size of the flowers.
That being said it is true that solid containers are better at retaining moisture than fabric pots but depending upon your grow style and watering strategy that may not be what you want. If you are hand watering plants in organic soil a plastic pot might be best. If you use a passive drip system like a blumat then fabric pots might work better to avoid overwatering.
When I used to run hydro I would get these immense roots but that’s because there is no mycorrhizae in a sterile reservoir. The roots continue to grow and capillary as they reach the edges. A plant in a pot full of a low npk potting mix or sterile medium will do the same but a plant that has been in a decent soil mix inoculated with fungi will not always reach the edge simply because it doesn’t need to. This also helps makes the case for why plants seem to grow better when transplanted a couple times.

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Ross how are you watering/feeding your plants?

You should be watering until runoff, otherwise you'll have dry spots in your grow medium and your root ball won't fill your fabric pot.

.

RadicalRoss said:

Just finished chopping down and stripping the fan leaves off my first full 4x4 and I'm disappointed in the size of my root ball after I knocked it from my pots. I worry that the smaller root system means my plants weren't uptaking nutrients like they should and it's made them not reach their full potential. Though I am still relatively pleased with my first harvest (unsampled, at least) I wanna do better.

It seemed that the root ball was about the size of the 3 gallon fabric pot I'd had them in vegetative state, rather than the 7 they were transplanted into. I did transplant them the same day I flipped to 12/12, is this the issue? Should I give it a week or two after a transplant?
...
Any advice? I'm cleaning up my flowering tent and washing my pots right now, hoping to transplant and take clones this evening.

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I believe the issue has more to with flipping the lights on the same day you repotted from 3 gallon to 7 gallon pots. The roots will only grow until about week 4 in flower, and the plant will be focused more on flowering than on growing roots once the lights flip.

For best results, you want to repot at least a week before you flip the lights. I have used 3 and 5 gallon fabric pots with root balls filling out both pot sizes.

Now, regarding what some other posters have recommended about not using smaller fabric pots, I can only say my results disagree with their recommendation. I am on my 3rd batch using 3 gallon fabric pots to finish in a 4x4 tent and the plants are doing well. However, I am going into week 3 of flower and I am watering every 28-42 hours depending on the plant, I have a spreadsheet and I weigh each plant when they are due for water to be sure they need it. They are taking a gallon of water each time with about 20% runoff. I am growing in FF Happy Frog.

To really grow the root ball to its full potential, you need to water only when the dirt is dry. I use a scale because I am terrible at estimating the weight. This makes a huge difference in the size of the plant and the health of the roots.

RadicalRoss said:

Oh really? Well, I can't fit enough 15 gallon pots into my tent to home all my vegging girls right now so that's probably out for this cycle.

Is it less efficient to grow in a 7 gallon cloth pot vs a 7 gallon ceramic / plastic / what-have-you pot, in my circumstances?

The yield, as my first full tent and not having dried or trimmed it yet, was roughly what I imagined I'd get from this run. I'm not really trying to track down an issue, more just surprised at how small my root ball was when I popped it out of my pot.

Click to expand...

my first harvest was in 5 gallon buckets i vegged for 30 days after transplant under 400 watt HPS my rootballs looked kinda sad too i got about 3 ounces per plant in soil this time i stepped it up to 7 gallons and flipped 2 weeks after transplant and these plants are 2 or 3 times bigger and better same feeding and nutes

Ive got an old Barneys Farm G13 x Haze mother Ive had since 2009.

I veg it from rooted clone under 1000w HID/Hortilux HPS for 45-60 days in a 5 gallon plastic container.

I transplant on the day of flowering generally, I do rough up the roots a bit, but try not to damage them to much just stop the going round, and around, and around the container,. I use a 1000w Hortilux HPS and at transplant the root ball completely engulfs the 5 gallon pot. If I flower them out and keep the same container, Ill get 4oz- 6oz

I transplant into a 20 gallon container of Promix BX, and 70 days later, after harvest I can lift the Complete Dry Root Ball out of the container, as the roots take up 100% of the space. Rootbound in 70 days, so they fill up 15 more gallons after flowering is induced.
Same plant as above transplanted will go 18oz- 20oz. One could also veg 2 plants for 35 days, and equal, or better the one plant method. Im in an unfriendly state, so we grow trees vs more plants.

All this also has to do with light energy, and plant/strain genetics. Some strains I can veg 3 months under the same conditions, and only get 5oz in 20g Promix BX, and the plant wont use all the space, so will use less food, and water ect. Amount of food, and water used can be a great indicator of how much the plant is going to produce.

In 20g container at 82f, and 4-5 good fans blowing a breeze 24/7, they use 4 gallons of water every 3.5 days.
I also use a cheap, Lowes/walmart Moisture/Light/PH Meter to gauge wet and dry ect.

I NEVER let the needle get to DRY. Always LOW MOIST, and I take readings from several spots ( Lower Sides, top of the container to make I dont have dry spots, but using that much water, its usually nothing to even think about. You have to watch, and not over water when first transplanted. The 5 gallon root ball will use water way faster than the surrounding medium for a while, and you dont want to keep the outer soil sopping wet.
In 5 gallon containers I usually give 1-1.5 gallons water max, so at transplant I may give 1.5-2 Gallons water, and concentrate on the central root ball, and then just a bit more for new roots to grow into to. By 3-4 weeks they use the full 4 gallons. The G13/Hz stretches 4-5x in flowering. I also Bend the plants over, and dont top.
I also have a Mr Nice Super Silver Haze that grows similarly

I also use mostly chemicals. I use them at about 20% recommended dose, and feed every watering.

Everything about the plant will/should grow faster during flowering. Including root ball.

Also DONT limit Nitrogen during flowering. All Nitrogen is is?? PROTEIN.

Humans eat Protein, and turn it into Nitrogen. Plants bypass the eating part, and take N directly in after Pr has been broken down. Plants need an increasing need for everything up until about the last 2 weeks, then cut food in half.

Hobbes said:

.

Ross how are you watering/feeding your plants?

You should be watering until runoff, otherwise you'll have dry spots in your grow medium and your root ball won't fill your fabric pot.

.

Click to expand...

I get a little bit of run off every time I water but it's not much. I just leave it in the trays to get sucked back up by the medium.

Driver733 said:

I believe the issue has more to with flipping the lights on the same day you repotted from 3 gallon to 7 gallon pots. The roots will only grow until about week 4 in flower, and the plant will be focused more on flowering than on growing roots once the lights flip.

For best results, you want to repot at least a week before you flip the lights. I have used 3 and 5 gallon fabric pots with root balls filling out both pot sizes.

Now, regarding what some other posters have recommended about not using smaller fabric pots, I can only say my results disagree with their recommendation. I am on my 3rd batch using 3 gallon fabric pots to finish in a 4x4 tent and the plants are doing well. However, I am going into week 3 of flower and I am watering every 28-42 hours depending on the plant, I have a spreadsheet and I weigh each plant when they are due for water to be sure they need it. They are taking a gallon of water each time with about 20% runoff. I am growing in FF Happy Frog.

To really grow the root ball to its full potential, you need to water only when the dirt is dry. I use a scale because I am terrible at estimating the weight. This makes a huge difference in the size of the plant and the health of the roots.

Click to expand...

I'd definitely wondered about flipping same day being part of the issue. I transplanted the next generation into their 7 gallon pots and they've been sitting in the same light cycle for a few days now. I'll probably leave them for another week or so to finish filling out the SCROG screen and then I'll flip and in 3 months or so I'll know if that made a difference haha

RadicalRoss said:

I get a little bit of run off every time I water but it's not much. I just leave it in the trays to get sucked back up by the medium.

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Not a good idea. One of the worst things you can do is allow the pot to sit in runoff water. The roots will be saturated and can become soggy and rot.
The recommended way to water is to wait until the medium is practically dry, then flood with enough water that you get 20% runoff water back. The pots should be placed on grates or something that will allow the pots to drain water away.

I found these drain tiles on Amazon:


You can see here in this picture, before I got the drain tiles I was using blue rigid foam insulation with holes cut in the middle:


If you look closely, you can see the tent floor is covered by 2, two foot by four foot boot trays that catch all the water. I use a shop vac to remove all the runoff water from the boot tray, which I dump out the window for the flower gardens in the summer.

Here you can see my scale with the dry weight of the various pot sizes I use for transplanting. I weigh each pot before I water to be sure I waited long enough for the medium to dry out.


See, cannabis roots need oxygen as much as the leaves need carbon dioxide, this is why the medium must dry out between watering, and also why the pot must never be left soaking up runoff water.

When you do water, you always want to saturate the medium and use enough water that you get 20% runoff. This is critical to prevent salt buildup in the soil from fertilizer. For example, I am growing in 3 gallon fabric pots, in the 3rd week of flower, and each plant gets 1 gallon of water every 28-42 hours, every plant uses the water at a different rate so they are each watered on their own individual schedule. This is more work but ideal for best results.