Feminized Seeds Question

You're supposed to stabilize the parents, not the F1 hybrid. THAT is what's wrong with the cannabis breeding industry.

DarthBlazeAnthony said:

Can you elaborate? you didn't explain what leads to an f2. thx

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Actually I said specifically what "leads to an F2" in the part you quoted: selfing or crossing the F1. F2 is just the next inbreed generation.

IBL with the following homozygous genetic (sample) make up: AABBccDDeeFFGGHH
Another IBL with the following homozygous genetic make up: aabbCCddEEffgghh

Crossing those leads to an F1 hybrid with the following heterozygous genotypes and one phenotype: AaBbCcDdEeFfGgHh

A true F1 hybrid (most cannabis F1 crosses are no such thing) does not need any stabilizing, it's as stable as it gets. That's why in non-cannabis world F1 hybrids are more expensive than IBLs, F1 in such a case actually means something (hybrid vigor, also known as heterosis, which is a direct result of the heterozygous genetic make up).

When you cross that F1 by selfing a female or having a brother and sister from that F1 generation mate, you get an F2, which per trait produces 3 different genotypes and at least 2 different phenotypes.

So the genetic make up of each F2 plants is not the same and worse, there are many different phenos. For only the trait for which Aa is responsible, you will end up with 25% plants that have AA, 50% Aa, and 25% aa. For the trait we labeled B, crossing the F1 Bb with another F1 Bb will lead to that same typical F2 ratio of 25%BB, 50% Bb, and 25%bb. There will be plants with AA that have BB, plants with AA that have Bb, and plants with AA that have bb. There are also plants with aa that have BB, etc.etc.






And that 9:3:3:1 ratio is with only two traits... F2 is to create variation from which to find plants that have the best of both, it does not stabilize.

And dogs:


It's a result of the DNA from each parent being split in half and recombined at in the kids. If every parent would give the same half every kid, all their kids would look exactly the same. So instead, traits inherit independently ( "Mendel’s Law of Independent Assortment" ) so one kid for example can have the nose from dad but the ears from mom. Nature's way to ensure diversity and hence have better survival chances. The job of a plant breeder however is to reduce that variation for key traits such as taste, size, frostiness etc. F2 is where the most variation exists. A breeder who releases an F2 is not selling you a strain but breeding stock, a genetic soup in which you can do a phenohunt, which is then stabilized in F3 and on. And once stable (homozygous) is crossed with another IBL to create that actually F1 hybrid. It should be obvious the self-proclaimed closet breeders with 50 strains don't actually do the work...

Sativied said:

And dogs:
View attachment 3268601

It's a result of the DNA from each parent being split in half and recombined at in the kids. If every parent would give the same half every kid, all their kids would look exactly the same. So instead, traits inherit independently ( "Mendel’s Law of Independent Assortment" ) so one kid for example can have the nose from dad but the ears from mom. Nature's way to ensure diversity and hence have better survival chances. The job of a plant breeder however is to reduce that variation for key traits such as taste, size, frostiness etc. F2 is where the most variation exists. A breeder who releases an F2 is not selling you a strain but breeding stock, a genetic soup in which you can do a phenohunt, which is then stabilized in F3 and on. And once stable (homozygous) is crossed with another IBL to create that actually F1 hybrid. It should be obvious the self-proclaimed closet breeders with 50 strains don't actually do the work...

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Damn bro you did your research!!! as i said im crossing 2 stabilized hybrids, landraces, or ibl's so im actually creating my own F1hybrids... however i do have a question for you... if i have 2 feminized ibl's 1 ultimate purple and 1 grapefruit, get pollen from my feminized grapefruit and pollenate the ultimate purple with it,, the seeds produced would be feminized f1's right? as both parents are ibls..Also if i self a plant produce pollen off the female and pollenate herself w it, its an s1 will the seeds produce be exact replicas of the mother or can i get seeds that will produce traits not seen in the mother?? like hidden genes that were not seen in the original mother used even if she is a stabilized hybrid or landrace or true breed???? I know f1 hybrids have hybrid vigour however in my expierience they are not all the same, some have trats of the mother some of the father or feminized male pollen...but they are great because you can plant abunch of them and pick the one that is best suited to your grow. THANKS FOR THE INFO... IVE BEEN GROWING for 20 years and still dont know everything but enough to try out breeding at least i think i have enough knowledge.

TheChemist77 said:

the seeds produced would be feminized f1's right?

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TheChemist77 said:

Also if i self a plant produce pollen off the female and pollenate herself w it, its an s1 will the seeds produce be exact replicas of the mother or can i get seeds that will produce traits not seen in the mother??

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Only if it's a homozygous IBL, then the S1 will produce the same plants.

If you self AABBccDDeeFFGGHH you can only end up with AABBccDDeeFFGGHH plants.

If however the IBL is not homozygous for all these traits, it would for example look like this: AABBccDdeeFFGGHH

If D is complete dominant over d, d is that hidden recessive gene that can reappear in a later generation.

And then when you cross it with another with the same genetic make up (sibling or self in this scenario doesn't matter), you get the following 3 phenos:
AABBccDDeeFFGGHH
AABBccDdeeFFGGHH
AABBccddeeFFGGHH

If Dd is the taste trait for example, or bud structure, or apical dominance then you can end up with 2-3 quite different phenos.

That's why selfing is the way to find out if a plant in a certain generation is homozygous ( Google mendel test cross ) for one or more specific traits. If in the S1 you get that typical F2 ratio, the IBL is not homozygous.

I explained this with more examples at http://rollitup.org/t/when-is-it-considered-a-new-strain.842812/#post-10907966

So IBL by itself doesn't mean a whole lot. When you breed in generation after generation the dominant genes tend to become more present in a higher frequency increasing the likelihood a breeder gets lucky and ends up with a more homozygous soup.

Every time you cross plants you can witness how the traits inherit, over several generations you can derive from that how the traits inherit (complete/partial/co dominant or recessive) and whether they are homozygous or heterozygous in a particular parent.

Essentially, use Mendel's work + punnet squares to predict, and then try out to find out if that holds true in practice. If not, you'll have a better idea of how it inherits.

Practical example from my log:
- Hollow vs solid stems. There are debates about what's better, some say hollow, some say solid. I get good yields from either and want the strain to be suitable for cropping (such as bending the main stem instead of topping it) for which the hollow stems are less suitable. All hollow in chunk, all solid in CH, all solid in F1, some hollow some solid in F2. Solid complete dominant over hollow. S is solid, s is hollow. Hollow pheno can only be ss, solid pheno can be both SS and Ss. I need to pick two SS to breed that trait true, instead of two Ss else I again get some hollow and some solid. If I pick one SS and one Ss, will get all solid pheno in F3, but if I pick two Ss from those I will end up with some hollow again. If I pick SS and one Ss from F3 I end up with the same situation in F4...

That's why recessive traits can reappear in a later generation even if it seemed bred out.

Since I typed all that and can reuse the example:

In some cases a specific trait is the result of heterozygous alleles (like in an F1 hybrid), ie. when the dominant allele is not complete dominant.

The following image is the classic example:


Before Mendel, people believed basically everything was incomplete dominance. The blending theory. In case of codominant and incomplete dominance you get a mix of for example D and d. In other words, sometimes you want the alleles to be heterozygous in the final to-be-released generation. Most ornamental plants are hybrids because it allow for such variations. When such a hybrid is bred true again through inbreeding, it will end up either red or white (DD or dd). Again this is also why clone-only isn't always bullshit, it's more difficult to recreate heterozygous somewhat consistently without having the (homozygous) parents.

TheChemist77 said:

as i said im crossing 2 stabilized hybrids, landraces, or ibl's so im actually creating my own F1hybrids...

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So if you stabilize a hybrid you are essentially making it an IBL again. Landraces need to be bred in to create a stable (IB)Line from that landrace if it were to be one of the IBLs in for an F1. Stabilizing landraces takes a lot of commitment, space, and time. A more practical and efficient approach especially for a beginner would be to backcross the best traits of said landrace (doesn't need to be homozygous) into an already stabilized (and acclimatized) IBL as I described here: https://www.rollitup.org/t/backcrossing-your-own-variety.840329/ That will eventually result in 1 homozygous IBL as well. 1 down, 1 to go.

Thanks Sativied, One of the most interesting and thoroughly informative set of replies I have read on here! Thanks for making a lot of complex details very easily readable, and great diagrams too! (A sadly often undervalued resource!)

Sativied said:

Since I typed all that and can reuse the example:

In some cases a specific trait is the result of heterozygous alleles (like in an F1 hybrid), ie. when the dominant allele is not complete dominant.

The following image is the classic example:
View attachment 3268631

Before Mendel, people believed basically everything was incomplete dominance. The blending theory. In case of codominant and incomplete dominance you get a mix of for example D and d. In other words, sometimes you want the alleles to be heterozygous in the final to-be-released generation. Most ornamental plants are hybrids because it allow for such variations. When such a hybrid is bred true again through inbreeding, it will end up either red or white (DD or dd). Again this is also why clone-only isn't always bullshit, it's more difficult to recreate heterozygous somewhat consistently without having the (homozygous) parents.

So if you stabilize a hybrid you are essentially making it an IBL again. Landraces need to be bred in to create a stable (IB)Line from that landrace if it were to be one of the IBLs in for an F1. Stabilizing landraces takes a lot of commitment, space, and time. A more practical and efficient approach especially for a beginner would be to backcross the best traits of said landrace (doesn't need to be homozygous) into an already stabilized (and acclimatized) IBL as I described here: https://www.rollitup.org/t/backcrossing-your-own-variety.840329/ That will eventually result in 1 homozygous IBL as well. 1 down, 1 to go.

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Thanks for the info, wish you lived next door!!! I must say you are very well informed. I DID DO 1 THING you may find interesting, i took a 10 pack of nirvana seeds ice, planted them all ended up with 3 males the rest females they were f1's i think anyways i took the best male and collected pollen, next i took the best female and pollenated it w the said male. planted the seeds chose the best female and back crossed it, then did it again so I basically cubed it by back crossing 3 times with that same male pollen. After all that and probably 8 months later I selfed the female and ended up with 14 seeds, ive planted and grown out 4 of them so far, all are identical, you would think they are clones. Also in choosing the best females i ended up with a plant that finishes in 50 days.. that is 13 days earlier than the original ice seed females, pluss i think and so do my friends that somehow ive increase the potency of the originals... i have 10 seeds left they are in air tight containers with silica packets in the fridge...I would really like to send you 1 to grow out or clone off I am really proud of what i came out with. i have a problem maybe OCD because every time i buy f1 seeds i spend months bringing them to stabilized hybrids, selfing and collecting the seeds to cross with other strains later on. so far my best cross in my opinion was taking a stabilized female blue berry and crossing it with pollen from a female stabilized Fire og bx3 from bcbd. the plants i call Fire berry..They finish in 52 days and have a knockout effect and produce very well. Great for helping fall asleep i use it over nyquil!! I may ask you questions because i have had problems with some selfed seeds and all look diferent as if hidden genes must have dominated because none of the plants looked like the original mother.. That is how i lost the misty from nirvana i selfed it but lost the strain because i didnt back cross it before selfing. Again thanks for the info,, its very valueable to me.