First Post And a Few Fert Q's

Hello All,

I would like to finally introduce myself. Name is Brandon from Alaska. I have tried growing twice in my life. Both times in high school from bagseed. One was outdoors that grew short and bushy and very well with no nutes. Broke the cardinal law and opened my mouth and she ended up disappearing. What a heartbreaking feeling that was. Live and learn I guess.


Part 2 was indoors with yard dirt I dug up in the middle of winter in a pot that was too small and one double tube shoplight hung way too far away in a closet. That one grew with no nutes and was very skinny and spindly from the lack of light but she grew tall and flowered but I had to move before she finished. So needless to say I have not seen one through to harvest. But I figure with all the stuff against me in the indoor grow and still producing flowers and knowing what went wrong I should be able to do a little better this time.

I have bought my smoke for years but have fell out of the loop and it is very hard to come by. I refuse to pay 400 dollars for an almost ounce or 20 dollars per weak ass gram so I am fully invested in growing my own. I am using led's because I am intrigued by their energy saving potential and I also like a bit of a challenge. I do have the funds to supplement with other lighting if I fail with led's. I have an uncle that works for ledtronics in torrance california so I got twelve grow bars at cost wich equated to roughly $700. Let me tell you what these things put out some intense light and seem to be enough light so far.

Onto the setup. So I have an 8' high closet at 6 feet wide and 2.5' deep. I have it seperated into a three foot section for veg/clone and a five foot section for flower with 4 bars in the veg chamber and 8 in the flower. I am now 3 weeks from seed which I got from dutchseeds but came in nirvana bags. Am currently growing norther lights x big bud and ak48. I germinated five of each for a total of ten and all popped and all sprouted. I am down to nine from an unfortunate accident(my fault). Anyhow they have had there fair share of hard times. I was overwatering at first and also had bugs from the plain jane scotts potting soil I bought mixed 3 to 2 with perilite. Sprayed the soil with some garden safe and all is good now I think. Also had an inner battle with how close to keep the lights. Finally decided on the manufacturers and went 12". Any closer all led makers claim stunts growth. So they are all doing good but just started to barely show some yellowing at the leaf tips but I was expecting that since the small round leaves have just now been depleted. The only ferts I have access to are miracle grow which I don't want to use and lilly miller alaska products. I have the fish fertilizer which is liquid 5-1-1. And bloom which is 0-10-10 and all purpose powder which is 9-4-4. I am really confused how much to use. I used the all purpose today for it's first feeding. It says 1/2 to 1 teaspoon per gallon and I use a half gallon bucket so I used 1/4 teaspoon. That is what it said for indoor plants. Is that what I should use for fert regiment or too much,too little? Sorry for the long winded post. You will learn fast that I can go on forever.

O.K. first of all. Welcome to the sight.

Second, that was one long ass post for that little question at the end but thats o.k.

You should start your ferts at half of the recommended dose. Maybe 1/8 teaspoon, so that your plants can adjust and you can feel out how tolerent your plants are.

Good luck on your grow.

Sorry if this appears to be a hijack. How often should nutrients be added to the water you feed your plants?

Exactly what products does everyone use at each stage ?

Bugs in Scott's ? I am a little worried because I was thinking about using this to start my plants.

akramtona said:

and lilly miller alaska products. I have the fish fertilizer which is liquid 5-1-1. And bloom which is 0-10-10 and all purpose powder which is 9-4-4. I am really confused how much to use. I used the all purpose today for it's first feeding. It says 1/2 to 1 teaspoon per gallon and I use a half gallon bucket so I used 1/4 teaspoon. That is what it said for indoor plants. Is that what I should use for fert regiment or too much,too little? Sorry for the long winded post. You will learn fast that I can go on forever.

Click to expand...

Hiya

Welcome to the forums.

Personally, I'd stick with the Fish Fertilser (5-1-1) and the Bloom (0-10-10) for the time being as liquid fertilisers made from organic sources will always be better than chemical based ones. Also with those NPK values and used at differring strengths you can get a good balance between the NPK values for both vegetative growth and flowering.

For example, in veg, you'll probably want a higher Nitrogen amount for healthy green leaf growth and lower Phosphorus. For bloom you'll want to reduce the Nitrogen down and have higher Phosphorus and Potassium values. What I'm talking about here is altering the ratios of the Fish Fert and Bloom not necessarily the actual volume quantities you use. So for an example:

In veg you might want a NPK ratio something like 1 part N, 1/4 part P, 1/4 part K. So that would mean using the Fish Fert at 1 part and the Bloom at 1/4 part which would give you the 5-1-1 of the Fish Fert and 0-2.5-2.5 of the bloom fert and together 5-3.5-3.5.

In bloom you want it the other way round so a 1 part Fish fert and 1 part bloom would give you 5-11-11. That may be a little high in P and K so you might want to use 1 part Fish fert and 3/4 bloom to give 5-8.25-8.25, or 3/4 part Fish fert and 3/4 part bloom to give 3.75-8.25-8.25.

As you can see there's an endless number of variations you can use. It's slightly more complex than this in reality, but NPK values are only ratio's expressed as parts per million.

That pretty much covers the NPK ratio's aspect. What level to feed at depends on a number of different factors - pot size, plant size, amount of light etc and can only really come with experience of growing that particular strain and knowing what level to feed at.

The only precise way to know the correct feed levels is to measure the total dissolved salt (TDS) content of your irrigation water with an EC (Electrical Conductivity) meter. This includes the dissolved salts that come as part of the tap water or any irrigation water you use. Tap water varies considerably in it's TDS content - soft water has less Calcium and Magnesium than hard water that contains large quantities of it. An EC of base irrigation water of 0.2 or less is fine, 0.6 and above and you'll start getting problems.

The reason your base water TDS content is important is because it dictates at what safe EC levels you can feed at. On soil you shouldn't be feeding at a level much higher than 0.8-1.0 EC. If your tap water takes up 0.6-0.8 EC, then you only have 0.2-0.4 EC for added nutrients - which may not be high enough for the requirements of the plant. This is why so many people manage to burn (over-fertilise) their plants so easily. They see problems occuring and simply up the feed strength to cure it which will usually be at too high an EC level for the plants rootzone.

Plants suffer from over-fertilisation when the EC in the rootzone is higher than the EC of the roots themselves. Because the roots EC is usually fairly high (that's where the mineral ions and nutrients are absorbed) and higher than the surrounding rootzone EC nutrient ions will be absorbed by the roots via osmosis through a semi permeable membrane in the root hair structure. When that balance of EC's changes and the rootzone EC becomes higher than the roots EC themselves the osmotic process of absorbing mineral ions and water reverses and instead of the root hairs drawing in water and nutrients the rootzone itself starts to draw it out of the root hairs. The plant then starts to lose nutrients and moisture/water and the leaves cannot transpire sufficient moisture to stay cool because it's being drawn out of the plant. This then results in the burnt brown crispy edges to the leaves as the leafs internal temperature continues to rise - the tell tale 'burn' signs of over-fertilisation.

Without an EC meter or knowing the EC of your irrigation water all you can really do is make an educated guess at the appropriate feed levels and adjust accordingly after watching the plants reaction.

If you've got hard water (lots of limescale) then you've probably also got a high EC in your tap water. If you have soft water then it's likely to be a lower EC level. The reason people recommened feeding at 1/4-1/2 recommended doses is because they know from personal experience that full strength doses are too much for the plant, presumably because the recommended doses are based on 0 EC irrigation water.

So lets assume for a moment that a recommended nutrient dose is 1 mil per litre based on 0 EC irrigation water. That full strength dose should be at around 0.8-1.0 EC (it may be higher it may be lower, only way to know is to measure it with an EC meter). If you have hard water and use the recommended dose you'll be feeding the plant at 0.6 EC (tap water) + 0.8 - 1.0 EC nutrient = 1.4-1.6 EC = too high. The safe level to feed at with 0.6 EC tap water with that nutrient would be at 1/4 strength. EC of tap water (0.6) EC of Nutrient feed 0.8-1.0/4 = 0.2-0.25 + 0.6 = 0.8-0.85. At half strength it would be 0.6 + 0.4-0.5 = 1.0-1.1 - the higher end of the maximum EC levels to feed soil at.

You also need to bear in mind that some chemical based nutrients are at much higher levels than that and can quickly build up to excess salt levels in the root zone. Organic based nutrients are safer to use at higher doses because they break down and release more slowly than chemical based ones and therefore don't built up as much salt content.

I know that's a pretty verbose and long winded way of saying start at 1/4-1/2 recommended dose, hopefully with this information and explanation, people can start making more educated guesses at the correct feed levels.

There's no substitute for watching and observing your plants very closely for signs of under and over fertilisation after they've had a chance to assimilate and use nutrient feeds and adjust them accordingly.

You also need to plan your feeds according to your watering schedule. It's no good feeding plain water and then suddenly seeing yellowing leaves form right afterwards and realising you should have given it a feed that watering - plan ahead, watch the plants closely and schedule in those feeds. Cannabis like any other plant prefers small but regular feeds of nutrients at a level and rate the plant can use. Again, it's no good giving it a huge excessive EC nutrient feed and then nothing for weeks. Give it a low EC feed ( 0.6-0.8 ) followed by a plain watering and then observe how well the plant is taking in the nutrients and give it another small dose next watering if necessary, then a plain water feed and so on.

Great post babygro. I forget who posted it but it was a great link to calculate ppm as far as nutrients go and ever since then i've been working in ppm but have always wanted to know about EC. What is normal/safe ppm for nutrients during the different stages of growth? Thanks

Here's the link, it calculates a bunch of other things too.


General Hydroponics - Indoor Hydroponic Gardening, Hobby Gardening, Hydroponics System and Hydroponics Experiments

loveisallyouneed said:

Great post babygro. I forget who posted it but it was a great link to calculate ppm as far as nutrients go and ever since then i've been working in ppm but have always wanted to know about EC. What is normal/safe ppm for nutrients during the different stages of growth? Thanks

Click to expand...

Hiya loveisallyouneed

Glad you enjoyed the post, and thanks for the link, unfortunately it won't work on my antiquated computer! Probably java driven - my machine burps when it hits java. The safest level for feeding at any stage as far as I'm concerned is as I said, about 0.8-1.0 EC maximum, ideally more 0.6-8.0 for small regular feedings. That applies at any stage of growth apart from seedlings and clones for the first 2 or 3 weeks.

I'm not sure what ppm scale you're working to, so here's a conversion guide -

EC = Hanna, Eutech, Truncheon

0.1 EC = 50ppm, 64ppm 70ppm
0.2 EC = 100ppm, 128ppm 140ppm
0.3 EC = 150ppm, 192ppm 210ppm
0.4 EC = 200ppm, 256ppm 280ppm
0.5 EC = 250ppm, 320ppm 350ppm
0.6 EC = 300ppm, 384ppm 420ppm
0.7 EC = 350ppm, 448ppm 490ppm
0.8 EC = 400ppm, 512ppm 560ppm
0.9 EC = 450ppm, 576ppm 630ppm
1.0 EC = 500ppm, 640ppm 700ppm

So, if you're using the Hanna scale, somewhere between 300ppm (0.6 EC) and 500ppm (1.0), ideally 400ppm (0.8EC).

The following is cut and pasted from the old Overgrow FAQ guides, so I take no credit for the information contained - that comes from elsewhere. It's a really useful guide to converting NPK ratios into ppm, although don't ask me what scale they're using! It should give people a reasonable idea of what levels to feed at based on the NPK ratio of the fertiliser they're using which can really help if you don't have an EC meter.


Converting Fertilizer NPK Ratings to PPM and Teaspoons per Gallon
------------------------------------------------------------------------
One can estimate the parts per million in solution (ppm) produced by a quantity of fertilizer in a gallon of water, based on the fertilizer's N-P-K rating.

For each number in the rating apply the following formula:

> one teaspoon (5ml) of a given fertilizer in a gallon of water
(10xN)÷ 0.768 = ppm

> one tablespoon (15ml) of fertilizer in a gallon of water:

(10xN)÷ 0.256 = ppm


Example: Peter's Professional All-Purpose Fertilizer with N-P-K rating of 20-20-20.

(10x20)÷.768=260.4 ppm

Therefore, one teaspoon (5ml) of Peter's Professional All-Purpose 20-20-20 in one gallon of water will produce a solution that contains approximately 260.4 ppm of Nitrogen, 260.4 ppm of P (P2O5), and 260.4 ppm of K (K2O) for a TOTAL ppm of approximately 781.3 .


Explanation

It's important to understand that with the term "parts per million," we are expressing a measurement in terms of a RATIO, which, like miles per hour or pounds per square inch, is a relation in degree or number between two separate measurements. "Parts per million" is a common way of expressing the measurement of the dilution of something in solution, which for our purposes here, is the dilution of fertilizer components in water. It just so happens that fertilizer N-P-K ratings are also ratios, as is the measurement of teaspoons per gallon.

Parts per million is most often alternately expressed as milligrams per liter because it's so easy to convert due to the efficiency of the metric system: 1000 milligrams = 1 gram and 1000 grams of water = 1 liter; 1 thousand x 1 thousand = 1 million; voilá- parts per million.

Fortunately, the "parts" in "parts per million" are generic. It can be parts of a teaspoon just as easily as it can be parts of a gram. N-P-K ratios are also generic expressions of percentage, or parts per hundred. Unfortunately, 1 gallon does not equal 1 thousand teaspoons; it takes 768 teaspoons (or 256 tablespoons) to equal one gallon. But by knowing this, one ratio can be converted into the terms of another ratio, which is what the formulas above do.

Remember:

Before relying on these formulas to fertilize your grow, you should be absolutely aware that N-P-K ratings don't necessarily precisely describe the amount of each nutrient in the fertilizer, but instead describe the minimum amount of nutrient to be found, as explained in Mr.Ito's excellent FAQ on the subject.

The only way to know for certain the ppm of your fert mix solution is to measure it's EC, with an electronic TDS meter as you mix it. If this isn't possible, at the very least try to use only high-quality fertilizer brands with reputations for their accuracy and consistency of their analyses and products.

Author: Don'tTreadOnMe

Some more great infor thanks a lot babygrow. I like the idea of smaller more regular feedings over some of the other opinions i've read saying doses in excess of 1000 ppm are acceptable. I'd rep you but apparently I've gotta spread some around first... Thanks

Thanks for the welcome everyone.


SuMsHaDy---- The soil I bought was in huge bags and was the only kind without time release fertilizer I could find. Wanted to keep it simple. Had fungus gnats at every watering. Overwatering sure didn't help.

Babygrow---- Thanks for the info. You made my post look like a brief summary. I have been watching them very close and am on the less is better track right now. I would much rather need to add then to have to repair. I am also timing my feedings with the waterings. I am glad you suggested that I use the fish and the bloom ferts. They are all made by the same company but those two are the ones I picked up first and then I saw the multi purpose fish fert and got it cuz it was a tad stronger just in case. I also think that the powdered all purpose will take longer to take hold because it would not desolve in water so I had to keep stiring while watering to make sure distribution was even. I probably should have given the two strain different levels because the sprout leaves on one were still partially green and the other strain were pretty well toast. However the strain with the baby leaves still alive is the one where one plant is turning yellow on the tips. It is very slight but it is also the tallest plant. I feel they are behind in leaf count and all out veg growth but I feel that is due to overwatering, heat and having the lights to close for most of their lives. I also had my water sitting out to evaporate chlorine but I saw you say it was bad so I had the levels checked and they are low so I am no longer concerned with that.They seem to be picking up now. I don't expect to have big watt hid results but if I can keep myself with a couple different kinds of smoke without a huge hit to the electric bill then mission accomplished. I will get some pics posted up soon. It's amazing how varied they all are. Most grew tall fast and stretched(probably due to the red hue of the led's) but a couple are short like I was hoping. Oh I had a water test done and calcium is at 37.0 ppm and mag is at 11.1 ppm. Good or bad? They also gave a "hardness" level which was 145 ppm. God my head hurts from all this thinking. I need some damn smoke.

I use viagra for ferts.. my plants are huge!

One more for babygrow. When talking about altering the ratios of the fish and bloom ferts you said it's the ratios and not the quantities. Using full strength as an example would taking one part of the fish fert and 1/4 part of the bloom as in if full strength each mix called for 1 teaspoon per gallon would I use 1 teaspoon of fish and 1/4 teaspoon of bloom? Is that right? My brain tells me I am altering the quantities. However I am not the greatest with math so sorry if it takes a big hammer for me to get it.Thanks in advance for any help.

Is there a picture available of what salt buildup looks like or is it symptomized by a nute deficiency/lockout then detected using the TDS meter?

Also, I just checked a local store and a TDS meter is over $100. Anyone have ideas where to get them cheaper? Thanks.

akramtona said:

One more for babygrow. When talking about altering the ratios of the fish and bloom ferts you said it's the ratios and not the quantities. Using full strength as an example would taking one part of the fish fert and 1/4 part of the bloom as in if full strength each mix called for 1 teaspoon per gallon would I use 1 teaspoon of fish and 1/4 teaspoon of bloom? Is that right? My brain tells me I am altering the quantities. However I am not the greatest with math so sorry if it takes a big hammer for me to get it.Thanks in advance for any help.

Click to expand...

Hiya akramtona

It's the ratio's and the quantities. You need to think in terms of ppm or parts per million, because thats 'pretty much what the NPK ratio figures represent. Instead of ppm, lets look at them in terms of percentages - because they're that too, and it may make it clearer to you.

It's important to remember they're RATIO's that means ratios used with each other, and in relation to each other - it doesnt matter what quantity is used for say the first NPK ratio as long as the second is used in ratio with it.

Fish 5-1-1. What that means is, 5% Nitrogen, 1% Phosphorous, 1% Potassium, when used at whatever dilution rate. 1 mil of Fish in 1 litre of water, means that 1 mil contains 5%N, 1%P and 1%K. Now, if you use the bloom in the same ratio ie 1mil per 1 litre of water, that 1 mil is 0%N, 10%P and 10%K.

Now if you use 1 mil of fish and 1 mil of bloom in 1 litre of water that ratio becomes 5%N, 11%P and 11%K, because you add them together when used at the same dilution rate - remember - they're ratio's of ppm. So, if you use Fish at 1mil you get 5N 1P 1K, but if you reduce the ratio of the bloom to half, so 0.5mil per litre of water, when used with the Fish, you'll only get 50% of those ratios, so 0N, 5P and 5K.

This won't tell you HOW much of those NPK ratios to use, ie 1mil, 2mil, 3 mil per litre of water, but whatever quantity used will still be in ratio with the other.

So by varying the amounts of one to the other, you can change the ppm figures.

Thanks baby,

I was thinking that is what you meant. That is exacytly what my game plan was. It seems they are developing a better root system now as they are drying out faster even though temps have been lower. I also introduced 2 2liter co2 fermentation generators last night so we will see how those do. Might be time for a transplant soon. Thanks again babygrow.

VirginHarvester said:

Is there a picture available of what salt buildup looks like or is it symptomized by a nute deficiency/lockout then detected using the TDS meter?

Also, I just checked a local store and a TDS meter is over $100. Anyone have ideas where to get them cheaper? Thanks.

Click to expand...

Hey virgin,


I was just looking for a replacement ph meter and found a cheaper tds meter at htgsupply.com. Check in the testing equipment page.