Government

matias2911 · Jun 14, 2007

Representative Republic, not a Democracy there Matias, try again. Liberals and Communist all have it wrong, they can\'t accept it, but history proves it. History is Quite a Concept too.

First and foremost Liberalism is not a political standpoint, it's an economic one. I find it odd that republicans call democrats ''liberals'' when they are so obsessed with liberty themselves ( I can get deep into the philosophical subject of liberty too, for what liberty is there when the people have no means of expressing it, liberty is worth nothing if you are unabe to survive.)... quite an issue of terms construction.

\''evil'' / ''sucking the life out of everyone of us''/ ''have it all wrong''/
Those sound like dogmatic phrases to me.... boooooo, scary communism with it's sharp pointy theeth, it's going to kill us all..
if you actually read some Marx or Engels, Indie , you would understand (as I stated in my first post) that communism as a concept has little if nothing to do in with the experience of the soviet union (a fascist dictatorship), if I think that it is actually a theory that can be applied is besides the point...

Democracy has also little to do with the revolutionnary concept of communism... democracy can be conceived in a representative governement,,,What is wrong with a State that takes into account each individual as an undivisible part of the whole, why let others run your own affairs.. I see nothing wrong with a concept that has equality of rights and representation as a pillar of its theory.. In a practice a Representative republic is a form of democracy (USSR is not) demos= power, cratein=people... its as simple as that. (democracy in america by Tocqueville, great book, written in the 18th century)...
You are right history IS quite a concept , and democracy is something our civilisation has strived too achieve since ancient GREECE.

When was I ever defending communism ? Don't take wrong im just trying to clear up some evident confusion of terms here.

Token · Jun 14, 2007

Then you see what i was say'n. If the USSR never let there miltay control the government it would have had a different out come. :peace:

Reprogammed · Jun 15, 2007

I believe that all government sounds okay in writing, but they will never work out.
Pure communism (the final step according to Marx) would require those running the operation to insert themselves into the system, something which those in that much power would never do.
Hell, putting the means of commerce and production into the hands of any government is foolish.
Even democracy has always turned into a glorified aristocracy.

Put money, power or fear into the mix and corruption will always fester and dominate.

ViRedd · Jun 15, 2007

Let's name the countries that have had successful communistic systems:

1.

2.

3.

4.

Any more?

Vi

medicineman · Jun 15, 2007

ViRedd said:
Let's name the countries that have had successful communistic systems:

1.

2.

3.

4.

Any more?

Vi

Cuba, If the sanctions were lifted, Cuba would be movin right along. It is the way of capitalistic assholes to try and make every government that trys to take care of it's citizenry, fail. I mean, what a concept, a government that actually gave a shit about it's citizens, never Happen in a capitalist state. Does "of the people, for the people, by the people" ring a bell?

matias2911 · Jun 16, 2007

ViRedd said:
Let's name the countries that have had successful communistic systems:

1.

2.

3.

4.

Any more?

Vi

First, please define communistic systems.... second , if I were to answer to your question before having u define the terms of it I would say China. Communist politically, economically open to free trade and market economy.

Reprogammed · Jun 16, 2007

medicineman said:
Cuba, If the sanctions were lifted, Cuba would be movin right along. It is the way of capitalistic assholes to try and make every government that trys to take care of it's citizenry, fail. I mean, what a concept, a government that actually gave a shit about it's citizens, never Happen in a capitalist state. Does "of the people, for the people, by the people" ring a bell?

Cuba? Cuba?!
Don't blame capitalism for what has happened to Cuba. Blame the bastards for siding up with Russia, a goddamn disgrace to the name of communism, and persecuting their people relentlessly.
Have you even heard of the atrocities, imprisonments, and general hatred and turbulence that was/is caused by Cuba's Marxist-Leninist regime?

Sanctions have nothing to do with happened there. I hope Castro kicks the bucket in the most painful way possible.

Sorry to get so heated, but I have family and friends from Cuba and my entire family really understands the crap behind the sanctions blame game. Cuba was corrupted and defunct by pseudo-communists, and the people have either no sense of nationalism, or it's feigned.

medicineman · Jun 16, 2007

Reprogammed said:
Cuba? Cuba?!
Don't blame capitalism for what has happened to Cuba. Blame the bastards for siding up with Russia, a goddamn disgrace to the name of communism, and persecuting their people relentlessly.
Have you even heard of the atrocities, imprisonments, and general hatred and turbulence that was/is caused by Cuba's Marxist-Leninist regime?

Sanctions have nothing to do with happened there. I hope Castro kicks the bucket in the most painful way possible.

Sorry to get so heated, but I have family and friends from Cuba and my entire family really understands the crap behind the sanctions blame game. Cuba was corrupted and defunct by pseudo-communists, and the people have either no sense of nationalism, or it's feigned.

So your a Cuban Ex-pat. They all hate Castro and his Cuba. Your view does not influence the larger scope as it is too personal. Maybe Castro is a dictator, and maybe life is hard in Cuba, But the premis of communism is not the total blame, Sanctions play a large part and the disolving of Cuban-Russian relations are the major players in Cubas economic dillema. Hey, everyone wants to come to the land of milk and honey (USA), I guess you should feel fortunate you're here.

hempster · Jun 16, 2007

I'd be all for communism if I am the dictator. Other wise fuck them commie bastards. I think our government is fucked up too. But aint no way I'd trade it for communism. Think youR losing your rights now? take a look at the rights of your commie brothers. no thanks.

ViRedd · Jun 16, 2007

Mathias sez ...

"First, please define communistic systems.... second , if I were to answer to your question before having u define the terms of it I would say China. Communist politically, economically open to free trade and market economy."

OK, to define communism in its purest sense would be ... The State owns all means of production. The State owns all property. The State owns all means of distribution.

The closest China came to pure communism was under Mao. Thirty Million of Mao's fellow countrymen starved to death.

China DOES have a mixed system now. Their leadership still belongs to the Communist Party, but in order to thrive, they've had to turn to a quasi free market system. What the Chinese have started to realize is, that to be a little bit capitalistic, is like being a little bit pregnant. Its not communism that's making Cnina thrive, its capitalism

And Med ...

Reprogrammed has shot your Cuba theory right up your ass and out the top of your head. So, I repeat:

Let's name the countries that have had successful communistic systems:

1.

2.

3.

4.

Any more?

Vi

matias2911 · Jun 16, 2007

Quote: China DOES have a mixed system now. Their leadership still belongs to the Communist Party, but in order to thrive, they've had to turn to a quasi free market system. What the Chinese have started to realize is, that to be a little bit capitalistic, is like being a little bit pregnant. Its not communism that's making Cnina thrive, its capitalism

Thats pretty closed minded on your behalf my friend. It was under Mao that the capitalistic reforms did indeed begin, China's thrive cannot be defined only by the adoption of pure capitalism,, I call it selective capitalism in the sense that without a strong education system provided by the state, huge investments in infrastructure and technology, China was able to develop it's productivity and become the growing monster that it is. Health education controlled natality (1 child law) and powerful infrastructure can only be achieved through a strong State. If China would have applied the Washington Concensus of free trade, privatized industry and ''law of the jungle '' capitalism, it would have remained the workshop of rich countries ( the case of Argentina today, for instance) . China's Internal market is developping terribly fast and theyre becoming competitive at the international level. I don't agree with your one sided vision of the situation. Although Wolfowitz would. In essence i think you are partially right though.
Also, in marxist theory communism is defined by the absence of state, so your definition would be closer to stalinism/leninism.

I quote:
''State as a concept is merely the alienation of societal conflicts to a fallacious entity used solely as an item of oppression by the ruling class. Therefore, in the spectre of this divided society, communism would be defined as the progressive [...] perishment of State in profit of the productive forces, the working class.''

Reprogammed · Jun 17, 2007

medicineman said:
So your a Cuban Ex-pat. They all hate Castro and his Cuba. Your view does not influence the larger scope as it is too personal. Maybe Castro is a dictator, and maybe life is hard in Cuba, But the premis of communism is not the total blame, Sanctions play a large part and the disolving of Cuban-Russian relations are the major players in Cubas economic dillema. Hey, everyone wants to come to the land of milk and honey (USA), I guess you should feel fortunate you're here.

No, actually I'm natural born Italian-Cuban-Scottish, my entire family can be traced straight back to Ellis Island and the Miami Immigration.

Also, I don't believe I ever said communism is to blame. I simply said it will never work. People are too corrupt and greedy for something that tranquil to last long.

Oh, and again I don't believe I ever said anything about the economic dillema. I was saying that Castro and his government should die PAINFULLY for all he's done to my family and friends and the people of Cuba. They, like Russia, only serve as proof that communism sounds good on paper, but can't be applied logically. Castro and the commie bastards never gave a damn about the people. The Western world's bleeding hearts need to look past the misinformation and propaganda and actually listen to the people who had to live through it. Cuba had their infernal jails and raids, Russia had its gulags.

Not only does communism fail, it fails bloody miserably.

medicineman · Jun 17, 2007

Reprogammed said:
No, actually I'm natural born Italian-Cuban-Scottish, my entire family can be traced straight back to Ellis Island and the Miami Immigration.

Also, I don't believe I ever said communism is to blame. I simply said it will never work. People are too corrupt and greedy for something that tranquil to last long.

Oh, and again I don't believe I ever said anything about the economic dillema. I was saying that Castro and his government should die PAINFULLY for all he's done to my family and friends and the people of Cuba. They, like Russia, only serve as proof that communism sounds good on paper, but can't be applied logically. Castro and the commie bastards never gave a damn about the people. The Western world's bleeding hearts need to look past the misinformation and propaganda and actually listen to the people who had to live through it. Cuba had their infernal jails and raids, Russia had its gulags.

Not only does communism fail, it fails bloody miserably.

.......................The highest Population of Jail inmates by capita is in the good old USA. We have more people in Jail than any other civilized country, so crying about jails in Cuba doesn't sway me. I have had relatives in US prisons and it is a fear for your life situation daily. I'm not saying that Castros Cuba is run correctly, but I believe it would have been much more successful if the sanctions weren't in place and Russia had not pulled out. I believe in what Carl Marx said 70 years ago. The people are not ready for a pure form of communism and probably wont be for 200 years. The reason, Greed. I doubt we'll be around as a civilization in 200 years, at least not as we know it. I'm pretty sure before that man will use his ultimate weapons and turn this planet into a wasteland, reason, GREED! So if you want to know why Communism will not work presently, the answer is: the people are too greedy, no-one is willing to share. I've got mine-Fuck you!

ViRedd · Jun 17, 2007

Matias sez ...

Thats pretty closed minded on your behalf my friend. It was under Mao that the capitalistic reforms did indeed begin ...

Yes, Mao increased China's steel production in an effort to compete with the capitalistic system of the United States. Mao's goal was to out-produce the U.S. in steel production. He ended up forcing the melting down of everything made of steel in all the little boroughs in China, including medical equipment and even cooking woks. The result: 30,000,000 people starved.

And ... your idea of pure communism, whereby the state just goes away (absence of state) is naive at best. A good theory maybe ... but as Orwell said: "All pigs are equal, but some pigs are more equal than others."

Now then, if you can come up with a solution to human nature, I might listen to you.

Vi

matias2911 · Jun 17, 2007

na's steel production in an effort to compete with the capitalistic system of the United States. Mao's goal was to out-produce the U.S. in steel production. He ended up forcing the melting down of everything made of steel in all the little boroughs in China, including medical equipment and even cooking woks. The result: 30,000,000 people starved.

And ... your idea of pure communism, whereby the state just goes away (absence of state) is naive at best. A good theory maybe ... but as Orwell said: "All pigs are equal, but some pigs are more equal than others."

Now then, if you can come up with a solution to human nature, I might listen to you

First of all, I agree with you that the theory of communism has not yet been proved to work. It is by all means a theory and is not like you put it ''mine'', it was Marx's. I was just trying to clear up your question, i felt that your countdown of succesful communistic regimes is nonsencial because no communist regime has ever been put into place by a real revolution of the working class ( maybe with the exception of the commune of paris, violently repressed in 1871 by the french and prussian armies.). However Marx's analysis of the problems inherent to capitalism has yet to be proven wrong, and we still live in a vastly inequalitarian society that tends towards the progressive depletion of our natural ressources

Nevertheless I agree that it is difficult to perceive a change in the seeming nature of human beings. but we have been constantly evolving for 4000 years . As society gets more and more complex and intricate some of our ''human nature'' may eventually change.

Until then,
Lets earn money.

Wavels · Jun 17, 2007

Very thoughtful discussion, thanks much for your excellent input, matias!!

I agree with Vi, in that, Human Nature is immutable, herein lies the problem with the redistributive concepts and or political constructs.
Freedom and free markets tend to be far more productive historically, esp. from the standpoint of the elevation of the human condition.

:joint:

.

Dankdude · Jun 17, 2007

If one were to read Marx and Ingalls all the way through, one would see that they had a great Idea, but they didn't take into account that human nature fucks it all up. The USSR was the greatest example of this.

As someone who served during that last part of the cold war, I still don't trust Russians to this day.

Reprogammed · Jun 17, 2007

medicineman said:
.......................The highest Population of Jail inmates by capita is in the good old USA. We have more people in Jail than any other civilized country, so crying about jails in Cuba doesn't sway me. I have had relatives in US prisons and it is a fear for your life situation daily.

Wow. You are truly not seeing the point.

PEOPLE WERE TORTURED, MURDERED AND EXECUTED DAILY, AND MISTREATED ON A HORRIBLE SCALE IN THOSE JAILS. Do not even step up with the U.S. jails. I've spent times in the oh-so-wonderful jail system of our wonderful US of A, but I would honest to God commit suicide would I be given the choice between that and Castro's jails. Prison is prison no mayyer what country your in, but compare the two and ACTUALLY TALK TO PEOPLE WHO WERE JAILED THERE, then talk.
Honestly, I don't care what happens to Cuba. I can only pray that Cuba recovers from Castro's regime considering power was given to someone else. Like I've said, I hope he doesn't go quietly. AT ALL.
The point I was trying to make is that a lot of people in the U.S. want to blame the U.S. Talk to longstanding Cuban families, Castro was corrupt and it wasn't because of the sanctions. The only man worth respecting who was in the revolution was El Che. He knew what he was supposed to be fighting for, and he left after he saw it go South.
And my friend, it was Castro's regime that accepted the Russians, and they screwed them over constantly. They moved the people of Cuba around like chess pieces, and too many people paid the ultimate price for it.

We keep saying the same thing over. Communism can't happen. It won't. True, Zedong really believed in what he was doing and rejuvenated the people's spirits, but verily the outcome was the same. China is a fascist state. Anyone who's been and seen how afraid the people are of the government can see that.

In truth, I wish Marx would've been killed before his manifesto was published. Look back in time and see how much pain and suffering it has caused the people of the world. It really is a strong contestant for the system of government that really sets itself up to screw people over.

Its simple:
1. Get the people psyched.
2. Revolt.
3. Take over industry and means of production for the so called "good of the nation."
4. Propaganda galore.
5. Do what you want.

I really am sorry if I seemed heated, but government in and of itself is an excuse for some type of ruling class to control a larger people.

It all equates to more and more levels of control, as if being human isn't confusing and frightening (but be not afeared, also beautiful) enough.

Dankdude · Jun 17, 2007

Reprogammed, what you say may be true, but what's happening today in this country shows what's wrong with captialism.
It has run amuck.

7xstall · Jun 18, 2007

what's happening in our country is the result not of capitalism but of government interference in the process of capitalism. we have this federo-capitalism system and it's fake on every level.

the composting theory we talked about months ago.

when a business is collapsing the government thinks it should step in and save the jobs... the faulty business should be allowed to utterly fail sending those workers, technologies, leaders, etc. etc back into the system without interference.

by the same token, when a business is getting "too big" the government steps in and divides it up.

let it grow and it will come to a point where it has to divide on it's own, in an orderly and positive fashion.

the slice and dice philosophy is to blame for many of our high costs...

the best thing about true capitalism is that each man has the ability to thrive, it's the closest we'll come to the goal of communism where there is no state because we regulate ourselves and each other naturally.

.

Government

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

New Member

New Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

New Member

Active Member

New Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

New Member

New Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member