How a person overcame delusional thinking (great read)

Padawanbater2

Well-Known Member
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You know, I often ask myself the same question: [What is it about psychedelic drug experiences, in your opinion, that causes the average person to turn to supernatural thinking and "woo" to explain life, and why have you in r/RationalPsychonaut felt no reason to do the same?]

First, a bit about me. I was an active drug user from 17-25 or so, and now just do psychedelics 1-3 times a year, and smoke marijuana recreationally. By the time I was 21, I had literally had hundreds of psychedelic experiences. I would trip every couple of days - shrooms, mescaline, pcp, acid... just whatever I could get my hands on. No "Wooo", really. And, perhaps foreshadowing, I was often puzzled by how I could do heroic quantities and work out fine, while peers would lose their bearings with tiny quantities.

When I was 21, a friend found a sheet of LSD. It was excellent. I did it by the dozen. And then one day, something different happened. Something in my periphery. And then, while working on my own philosophical debate I had been having with a religious friend, I "realized" a version of pan-psychism. By 'realized' I mean that, within my own mind, it transformed from something that I thought to something that I fully understood and believed. I was certain of it.

This unleashed a torrent of reconfigurations - everything.... everything that I knew made way for this new idea. And truthfully, I had some startlingly accurate insights about some pretty complex topics.
But what was it? Was it divine? It felt like it, but I also knew fully about madness. So what I did was try to settle the question. I took more and more and more acid, but couldn't recreate the state of consciousness I'd experienced following this revelation. And then, one day, something happened.

What occurred is hard to describe, but if you're interested, I wrote about it extensively here. It is espoused further in the comment section.

The state that I described in the link had two components, that at the time I thought were one. The first is a staggeringly different perceptual state. The second was the overwhelming sensation that I had God's attention, and God had mine. The puzzling character of this was that God is not some distant father figure - rather God is the mind that is embodied in the flesh of the universe. This tied in with my pan-psychic theories that suggest that certain types of patterns, such as consciousness, repeat across spatial and temporal scales. God was always there, and once it had my attention, it took the opportunity to show me things. When I asked questions, it would either lead me around by my attention to show me the answer, or it would just manifest as a voice in my mind.

Problems arose quickly. I had been shown the "true" way to see the world. The "lost" way. And it was my duty to show it to others. I never assumed I was the only one (in fact, my friend with whom I had been debating also had access to this state), but I did believe myself to be divinely tasked. And so I acted like it. And it was punitive.

We came to believe (my friend and I) that we would be granted ever increasing powers. Telepathy, for instance, because we were able to enter a state that was similar to telepathy with each other. Not because we believed our thoughts were broadcast and received, but because God was showing us the same things at the same time.

This prompted an ever increasing array of delusional states. Everything that was even slightly out of the ordinary became laden with meaning and intent. I was on constant lookout for guidance, and, following my intuitions and "God's will", I was lead to heartache after heartache.

Before all this, I had never been religious. In fact, I was at best an agnostic atheist. But I realized that, if it were true, I would have to commit to the belief. So I did. And I was disappointed.

I focused on the mechanisms. How was God communicating with me? It was always private, meaning that God's thoughts were always presented to my own mind. As a consequence, I could not remove my own brain from the explanation. It kept coming back to that. I didn't understand my brain, so how could I be certain that God was, or was not, communicating with me? I couldn't. And truthfully, the mystery of how my brain could do these things without God was an equally driving mystery. So I worked, and struggled until I was stable enough to attend university, where I began to study cognitive science.

And so that's where I started: was it my brain, or was it something else? Over the years, I discovered that I could access the religious state without fully accessing the perceptual state. I could access the full perceptual state without needing to experience the religious one. I was left with a real puzzle. I had a real discovery - a perceptual state - and a history of delusion brought on by the belief that the universe was conscious, and had high expectations for me.

I have a wide range of theories to try explain everything, because I've needed explanations to stay grounded.

The basic premise about the delusional component, and I think psychedelic "woooo" phenomenon in general is that we have absolute faith in our cognitive faculties. Example: what is your name? Are you sure? Evidence aside, your certainty is a feeling, a swarm of electrical and chemical activity. It just so happens that every time you, or anyone else checks, this feeling of certainty is accurate. Your name is recorded externally to you - so every time you look, you discover it unchanged. But I want you to focus on that feeling of certainty. Now, let's focus on something a little more tenuous - the feeling of the familiar. What's the name of the girl you used to sit next to in grade 11 english class? Tip of the tongue, maybe?

For some reason, we're more comfortable with perceptual errors than errors in these "deep" cognitive processes. Alien abductees? They're certain they're right. Who are we to question that certainty?

I have firsthand experience that shows me that even this feeling of certainty - that my thoughts and interpretation of reality are veridical - can be dramatically incorrect. This forces upon me a constant evaluation of my beliefs, my thoughts, and my interpretation of the reality around me. However, most people have neither the experience or the mental tools required to sort out such questions. When faced with malfunctioning cognitive faculties that tell them their vision is an angel, or "Mescalito" (a la Castaneda), then for them it really is that thing. Why? Because never in their life have they ever felt certain and been wrong. Because uncertainty is always coupled to things that are vague, and certainty is coupled to things that are epistemically verifiable.

What color are your pants. Are you certain? Is it possible that I could persuade you that you're completely wrong? What about your location? Could I convince you that you are wrong about that? You can see that certainty is a sense that we do not take lightly.

So when we have visions, or feelings of connection, oneness, openness... they come to us through faculties that are very good at being veridical about the world, and about your internal states. Just as I cannot convince you that you are naked, you know that you cannot convince yourself. You do not have the mental faculties to un-convince yourself - particularly not during the instance of a profound experience. I could no more convince myself that I was not talking to God than I can convince myself now that I am not in my livingroom.

So when these faculties tell you something that is, at best an insightful reinterpretation of the self in relation to the world, and at worst a psychosis or delusion, we cannot un-convince ourselves. It doesn't work that way. Instead, we need to explain these things. Our explanations can range from the divine, to the power of aliens, to the power of technology, or ancient lost wisdom. And why these explanations? Because very, very few of us are scientifically literate enough, particularly about the mind and brain, to actually reason our way through these problems.

I felt this, and I have bent my life around finding out the actual explanation - the one that is verifiable, repeatable, explorable and exportable. Like all science is, and needs to be.

I need to.

The feeling of certainty is that strong.

It compels us to explain its presence to its own level of satisfaction. I need to know: how could I be so wrong?

I don't know how I could live. My experiences were that impactful. My entire life has been bent around them.

I need to know.

Edit: I'll try to get back to all the replies when I have time. I understand this touches on some sensitive subject matter for many of you
Edit II OK, so a LOT of people are writing to share their experiences. This identifies a couple of things - one, it's not that uncommon. Two, people really need to talk about it.
This is a difficult subject to talk about, because many non-experiencers aren't willing to take any of the content of such experiences seriously. We should also make note of the idea that these experiences have enormous overlap with classical mental illnesses. As such, it seems that real work needs to be done in going over what portions of these experiences we get to keep, and which ones need to be discarded. Admittedly, I wonder if a new sub is the right solution, but I really think we need to get all of the commenters and PM'ers who have reached out to me to talk amongst themselves. Any suggestions on how we could establish a community to accomplish such goals?

http://www.reddit.com/r/RationalPsy...us_nonpsychonaut_here_with_a_question/ce0imc7
 
Hi Pada, just started to read the comments in the link you posted. That 'earthy communication' 'speaks to' the VNS. This is, essentially, what bio-feedback is. I read one comment that said it was 'bad' and part of delusion. I don't think so. I think that those are very valuable experiences. To think of those conversations as a map to wellness would show them in a different light.

Could be.
 
tl;dr- dude does tons of drugs, starts having delusional thinking, believes he has special powers, then comes to the conclusion everything is in his own head. Reminds me of George
 
nice pada. how much of the following chain of writings are you read up on to date? Cassirrer_Jung's collective unconscious_goswami's self reflexive universe_Lazlo_a reread of Hofstadter's Goedel Escher Bach--Athene's theory of everything.
Lucky for me I understood it was error in cognition as I moved along with the god complex. Getting comfortable with the lack of an answer makes the mistakes a beneficial learning experience.
 
That was a good read, Pad, thanks for posting. I used to think that my certainty was absolutely tied to objective reality; if I was certain about something, it had to have occurred in reality. Finding out for the first time that my certainty had nothing (necessarily) to do with objective reality turned my world upside down in a way that had not happened before (or since). It is disconcerting to discover how many foibles our own minds have, and how easily we can be fooled by our own senses. However, once you start to get comfortable with these facts, the more accurate becomes your views and assessments of objective reality. You learn to doubt yourself and your knowledge, which leads you to consistently reassess and reconfirm the validity of your own beliefs. Also, this process serves you a big helping of humility. I don't think that hurts, either...
 
tl;dr- dude does tons of drugs, starts having delusional thinking, believes he has special powers, then comes to the conclusion everything is in his own head. Reminds me of George

Hey, hey, hey!

Speaking of the Messiah!? Christ George here.

But for the record, I havent done many hallucinigenics, I did trip on salvia like two times though a few years ago, maybe in 2010 or so. I never tripped besides those two times. My drug of choice was cannabis most of my life. I first started smoking cannabis when I was like 7 years old but I started smoking it like every day when I was in the 4th grade. I quit smoking weed from like the age of 15 to 23 because I was more focused on working out and working at jobs and I was going to school for (electronic) engineering. I started smoking pot again because I started growing exotics at My house and I had pounds of weed and I wanted to experiment again. Then My x fiance broke up with Me and I started to self medicate, and I smoked cannabis from 23-27 years old. I quit smoking pot about a year ago because I think the cannabis is why I was diagnosed with a mental illness in the first place, the weed makes Me a little crazy now.

Padawanbater, I dont have any special powers, My only faculty is My prophecies, the Bible stories that I have fulfilled and My online pulpit. Im only special because I am the Chosen One of the Highest Power. I'm much like everyone else in many respects except I'm 100% Christ too.

I may be considered "delusional" to some but I imagine every prophet was considered delusional and crazy to some; My Words speak for themselves. I would like to know whats crazy or delusional about Me. But I agree that I have been a little crazy and delusional compared to the norm, Im just a different kind of person.


Lucky for me I understood it was error in cognition as I moved along with the god complex. Getting comfortable with the lack of an answer makes the mistakes a beneficial learning experience.

Do you have a God complex too, like Me? Well, I dont have a God complex, I actually have a Christ complex- I believe I'm the Messiah, the Anointed One. At the very least, I'm the Greatest Prophet to ever live. But I'm very humble and I don't claim to know everything, I just have very esoteric prophecies.

~PEACE~
 
Did you read the OP?

LOL! I cringed when you used His name in your thread; I knew he'd take it as an invitation to show up and bust a huge load of christ all up in here. I did like his Dwayne greeting, though. It's better than any of Jesus'...

[video=youtube;LrgFHeqD3GE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LrgFHeqD3GE[/video]
 
lmfao @ that clip, what is that from? That dudes fro is pimp!


That's the impression I got, too.. as if George just came in, skipped the post, then told everyone the same thing he's told us in a couple dozen threads already..

That shit IS him! That person was where George is at right now, did a little introspection with the help of some powerful hallucinogens, then concluded he was lying to himself. Come on man, get some LSD, get some psilocybin, get fucked up and think about yourself, then come back and talk to us about it!
 
lmfao @ that clip, what is that from? That dudes fro is pimp!


That's the impression I got, too.. as if George just came in, skipped the post, then told everyone the same thing he's told us in a couple dozen threads already..

That shit IS him! That person was where George is at right now, did a little introspection with the help of some powerful hallucinogens, then concluded he was lying to himself. Come on man, get some LSD, get some psilocybin, get fucked up and think about yourself, then come back and talk to us about it!

That's from What's Happening? Great 70s/80s show. Yes, that's George all over, but I think it takes a certain level of intelligence, and some intellectual honesty, to overcome delusion. I'm afraid our boy is short on both...
 
Hey, hey, hey!

Speaking of the Messiah!? Christ George here.

But for the record, I havent done many hallucinigenics, I did trip on salvia like two times though a few years ago, maybe in 2010 or so. I never tripped besides those two times. My drug of choice was cannabis most of my life. I first started smoking cannabis when I was like 7 years old but I started smoking it like every day when I was in the 4th grade. I quit smoking weed from like the age of 15 to 23 because I was more focused on working out and working at jobs and I was going to school for (electronic) engineering. I started smoking pot again because I started growing exotics at My house and I had pounds of weed and I wanted to experiment again. Then My x fiance broke up with Me and I started to self medicate, and I smoked cannabis from 23-27 years old. I quit smoking pot about a year ago because I think the cannabis is why I was diagnosed with a mental illness in the first place, the weed makes Me a little crazy now.

Padawanbater, I dont have any special powers, My only faculty is My prophecies, the Bible stories that I have fulfilled and My online pulpit. Im only special because I am the Chosen One of the Highest Power. I'm much like everyone else in many respects except I'm 100% Christ too.

I may be considered "delusional" to some but I imagine every prophet was considered delusional and crazy to some; My Words speak for themselves. I would like to know whats crazy or delusional about Me. But I agree that I have been a little crazy and delusional compared to the norm, Im just a different kind of person.




Do you have a God complex too, like Me? Well, I dont have a God complex, I actually have a Christ complex- I believe I'm the Messiah, the Anointed One. At the very least, I'm the Greatest Prophet to ever live. But I'm very humble and I don't claim to know everything, I just have very esoteric prophecies.

~PEACE~

How do you reconcile these two things?

Claiming you're the 'greatest prophet to ever live', but that you're also 'very humble'?

hum·ble
ˈhəmbəl/
adjective


  • 1.
    having or showing a modest or low estimate of one's own importance.





You certainly do not have a low estimate of ones own importance. You claim to be the son of god, you claim to be a prophet with the ability to foresee the future, and you claim to be 'the best' prophet who has ever existed. That is the antithesis of humble.

Both of these definitions are better suited to your mentality.



self-cen·tered
adjective


  • 1.
    preoccupied with oneself and one's affairs.





    e·go·tis·ti·cal
    ˌēgəˈtistikəl/
    adjective
    • 1.
      excessively conceited or absorbed in oneself; self-centered.
 
Just my opinion, as i have been doing for the past month... i think ignoring Nev when he posts stupid shit, is most likely the wisest choice one can make. /shrug
 
Did you read the OP?

I read it. What about it?

You said: "Reminds me of George", so I figured I would make manifest that I've only tripped twice but I have smoked a lot of cannabis. The only "drugs" I do now are smoke cigarettes and drink beer. I haven't smoked weed for about a year and I only tripped twice in My life- maybe in 2009 or 2010.

LOL! I cringed when you used His name in your thread; I knew he'd take it as an invitation to show up and bust a huge load of christ all up in here. I did like his Dwayne greeting, though. It's better than any of Jesus'...

[video=youtube;LrgFHeqD3GE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LrgFHeqD3GE[/video]

I noticed you said; "I cringed when you used His name in your thread". You capitalized the "H" in His, when referring to Me. My question to you, Tyler, is this; do you think I'm some sort of a Prophet, like I believe?

I tried to watch that video but the headphones (or audio) aren't working at the clubhouse that I'm at.

lmfao @ that clip, what is that from? That dudes fro is pimp!


That's the impression I got, too.. as if George just came in, skipped the post, then told everyone the same thing he's told us in a couple dozen threads already..

That shit IS him! That person was where George is at right now, did a little introspection with the help of some powerful hallucinogens, then concluded he was lying to himself. Come on man, get some LSD, get some psilocybin, get fucked up and think about yourself, then come back and talk to us about it!

I don't want to trip anymore, I had a bad experience off the salvia that I smoked a few years ago. I'm sure all hallucinogenics aren't created equal, but I don't want to try and be scarred from a bad trip.

AND, I don't recall telling you guys My drug history so that last post was somewhat "original". So the last post I made was not; " the same thing he's told us in a couple dozen threads already". But I do admit that I have reiterated My rhetoric quite a bit.

That's from What's Happening? Great 70s/80s show. Yes, that's George all over, but I think it takes a certain level of intelligence, and some intellectual honesty, to overcome delusion. I'm afraid our boy is short on both...

I'm very veridical but I just know what I know. I'm afraid I'm not as scientifically astute as some of you scientists on here.

But I don't need to "overcome delusion", you all should brace My "delusion" because one day it was all be scientific fact; but that could be many years away. HAHA!

How do you reconcile these two things?

Claiming you're the 'greatest prophet to ever live', but that you're also 'very humble'?

hum·ble
ˈhəmbəl/
adjective


  • 1.
    having or showing a modest or low estimate of one's own importance.





You certainly do not have a low estimate of ones own importance. You claim to be the son of god, you claim to be a prophet with the ability to foresee the future, and you claim to be 'the best' prophet who has ever existed. That is the antithesis of humble.

Both of these definitions are better suited to your mentality.



self-cen·tered
adjective


  • 1.
    preoccupied with oneself and one's affairs.





    e·go·tis·ti·cal
    ˌēgəˈtistikəl/
    adjective
    • 1.
      excessively conceited or absorbed in oneself; self-centered.

Deep down inside I'm very humble because I have to be; I have "nothing" to show for Myself besides a house that I paid cash for when I was 21 and I have My Jeep. So I have to be humble. But at the same time, I have all these wonderful prophecies for the future that I believe will all one day come to true. If you want to talk about Jesus, some consider him to be God or Christ (or whatever) and he too, like Me, was a poor person, lowly, meek and contrite. I think I have much better prophecies then Jesus. I believe I'm a greater Prophet then Jesus. All of My Words have been recorded for anyone to read; except a few posts that were deleted by the mods.

Just my opinion, as i have been doing for the past month... i think ignoring Nev when he posts stupid shit, is most likely the wisest choice one can make. /shrug

You wanted to be My "follower" for a day, now you just want to ignore Me?

That's okay, I'm not looking for followers anyways, I'm looking for witnesses. I'm looking for people that will read and believe in My Truth. You can't receive the Message unless you listen to the Messenger. You can't believe unless you know.

Because I'm veridical, I will make manifest the felicity that I will bestow on all the witnesses that just read My Words.

One day, I will have My own Spirituality, not a religion, that will lead the world to paradise and utter peace and prosperity; with happy people.

~PEACE~
 
Deep down inside I'm very humble because I have to be; I have "nothing" to show for Myself besides a house that I paid cash for when I was 21 and I have My Jeep. So I have to be humble. But at the same time, I have all these wonderful prophecies for the future that I believe will all one day come to true. If you want to talk about Jesus, some consider him to be God or Christ (or whatever) and he too, like Me, was a poor person, lowly, meek and contrite. I think I have much better prophecies then Jesus. I believe I'm a greater Prophet then Jesus. All of My Words have been recorded for anyone to read; except a few posts that were deleted by the mods.

You can claim to be humble all day long, but that's not the picture you've painted on this forum. All you want to do is talk about yourself, and how great your prophecies are when in reality no one has any reason to take anything you say seriously. You've done nothing to help anyone or to make yourself anyone more than 'some guy on the internet', so why would you think you're influential or special?

It's the epitome of self-centered and egotistical. You simply claim to be 'the greatest prophet', with nothing to base the statement on. You're conceited or vain.... or both.
 
You can claim to be humble all day long, but that's not the picture you've painted on this forum. All you want to do is talk about yourself, and how great your prophecies are when in reality no one has any reason to take anything you say seriously. You've done nothing to help anyone or to make yourself anyone more than 'some guy on the internet', so why would you think you're influential or special?

It's the epitome of self-centered and egotistical. You simply claim to be 'the greatest prophet', with nothing to base the statement on. You're conceited or vain.... or both.

I could see how you would say something like that because after all, I'm just "some guy on the internet". You don't know Me other then what I have written on here and you also might have seen My videos. Its not like I'm about to say how much of a loser I really am, in real life; I'm going to try and give you all the best of Me. I might come off as hubris on the internet, but in real life I'm the total opposite of hubris.

I can't talk any longer but I would if I could, I have to go. But I hear what you're saying but you don't know Me in real life. You only know what I have said on here and I try to sound "strong" on the internet. But in real life I am very humble and it might be a contradiction that I also believe that I'm the Greatest Prophet EVER!

~PEACE~
 
Bahahahaaha!!!

What are you laughing at? brother!

I'm the best at being modest.

Why can't the Greatest Prophet EVER be one of the most humblest of people also? Why?

Its not like I tell people in real life My biggest secrets, or prophecies. What I'm trying to say is that I don't go announcing it to My friends or people I know. But I do put all My secrets on the internet because I'm somewhat anonymous here, even though some of you guys have seen My videos and know My Name- George. I'm kind of incognito in real life, most people in real life don't know My grandiose intentions to reinvent the worlds, the worlds- as in not just one world but many worlds.

Lets talk about Jesus for a second again; to some, he is known as Christ- the Savior of the world, and many people believe that Jesus is one of the most humblest person to ever live because he had humble beginnings. I also have to be humble because I have nothing to be hubris about; I'm not rich and I'm not much of much. But I do have the GREATEST PROPHECIES EVER! I am very proud of My prophecies and I do believe one day they all will be fulfilled, in time; most likely after I die.

Many great people were humble, like Me. Just because one is great, it doesn't mean they have to be hubris. And just because one is not great, it doesn't mean they have to be humble. Its a state of mind, in My opinion.

So Beef, why can't the Greatest Prophet EVER be one of the most humblest of people also? Why?

~PEACE~
 
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