how to make seeds without inbreeding

im wondering how you go about making seeds without inbreeding. ive read if you get regular seeds and use a male from the same strain to polinate a female from that strain you will get inbred seeds and this is not good. my question is say i pick up a strain and its pricey so i would like to seed my first grow to get alot more seeds but i want the seeds to be the same strain, how do i go about doing that? how would the seed companies go about making tons of seeds of the same strain? can i not just polinate a female with a male of the same strain and then get seeds that are that exact strain? i find this all very confusing and would love if someone would clear this up for me.

your not alone mate ill be watching for answers lol

just get a male and female thats same strain....when u flower shake the male over the female and ull pour pollen everywhere........next thing u no....seeds from that strain......or u can always take a clone....then itl be exactly the same...

captainidiot420 said:

im wondering how you go about making seeds without inbreeding. ive read if you get regular seeds and use a male from the same strain to polinate a female from that strain you will get inbred seeds and this is not good. my question is say i pick up a strain and its pricey so i would like to seed my first grow to get alot more seeds but i want the seeds to be the same strain, how do i go about doing that? how would the seed companies go about making tons of seeds of the same strain? can i not just polinate a female with a male of the same strain and then get seeds that are that exact strain? i find this all very confusing and would love if someone would clear this up for me.

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I have done some reading about breeding and the problem with inbreeding is it opens up recessive traits which are usually not wanted. If you further inbreed the strain, meaning more generations, then eventually you should come down to a stable strain. Why dont you clone a strain instead of relying on seeds? You could also consider finding a pick and mix seed bank so you can by more than one type of strain and breed those, if budget is a concern for you

well its more along the lines of i do not want to spend 150+ on seeds every damn time i need them. cloning is not an option as i am doing autos. would i be able to order a regular pack of auto hindu kush and polinate the shit out of one plant for seeds? or would those seeds come out possibly not being autos? i understand that i probably could not do this indefinately but would it be okay to do it once, use those seeds then when they run out buy another pack and do it again? or get another male of the same strain and polinate one of the seeds ive made?

Jakabok Botch said:

just get a male and female thats same strain....when u flower shake the male over the female and ull pour pollen everywhere........next thing u no....seeds from that strain......or u can always take a clone....then itl be exactly the same...

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see this is the problem, thats inbreeding. male and female from same strain and same bag/probably same plant polinating eachother is inbreeding.

ahhh...i thought u meant one plants seeds....

captainidiot420 said:

well its more along the lines of i do not want to spend 150+ on seeds every damn time i need them. cloning is not an option as i am doing autos. would i be able to order a regular pack of auto hindu kush and polinate the shit out of one plant for seeds? or would those seeds come out possibly not being autos? i understand that i probably could not do this indefinately but would it be okay to do it once, use those seeds then when they run out buy another pack and do it again? or get another male of the same strain and polinate one of the seeds ive made?

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As you already mentioned there is a probabilty that the first genertion of your inbread autos might not actually be autos, along with that they might even decrease in potency and yield

well, does anyone know how these seed companies do it?

inbreeding for a single seed run is not going to create useless seeds. go for it! you wont run into problems unless you do it for several generations. I have seeds that I inbred for 3 generations(auto NYC diesel) -about 1 in 8 grow tiny,like never more than 6 inches. the rest are fine.
its kinda like inbreeding people, marry a cousin and your odds of genetic problems are slightly higher than average but if inbreeding continues for several generations like it did in european royality, the odds of genetic problems increases.
at the price of seeds,isn't it worth it to cull 5-10 % of your seeds due to genetic problems?
if you really want to avoid this, you could order the same stain from 2 different seedbanks several months apart and match a male from 1 batch w/ a female from the other. the odds of both being from the same parent would be slim.
or cross 2 different strains. the children will have a varity of characteristics coming from each parent. some will favor the mother while others will favor the dad & others will get the best of both (& a few might get the worst of both). they wont be stable but do you want to smoke the same strain all the time?

Just buy a 10 pack of seeds grow a mother then run her out taking clones when you need them, then pop another seed when that mother time is up. Sounds like a lot of work for someone who really don't know what they are doing when this method will keep you going for long time.

inbreeding just means restricting the breeding to a given plant population/strain
there is inbreeding, then there is excessive inbreeding where undesirable traits begin to show
if your initial population of genetics(i.e. plants) is large enough, you won't see bad traits, at least not a lot
inbreeding has the good feature of producing predictable, similar plants
excessive inbreeding produces freaks and mutants, complicated topic on where the line is

To start... I want to say I hit the like button for the post above me. I think that was an intelligent, factual post. Second, I'd also like to say that I too would be curious to see what the breeding veterans have to say (from their experiences) because unless you have a PHD I'm not going to believe you word for word anyways. Even if you do I still probably won't, unless everything you say I agree with. Remember even published science gets debated everday.

Now on to my thoughts when I first read the original post.

You've got to remember that as humans, what we refer to as inbreeding is 1/2 a phycological stigma. That phenomenom has been occuring since living organisms first developed and without it we probably wouldn't be here today. (It's the same thing for mutations, and anything else folks consider may "not normal". Diversity has been the key to the Earths biological success since day 1.)

But we're talking about inbreeding and now I mentioned diversity... sounds like I'm going off on a tangent. (But I'm really not.)

You have to remember that inbreeding preserves specific genes and the purpose of it in todays world is to retain deseriable features. Think of cats and dogs. I don't want to confuse the inbreeding of mammals and plants, because without a large knowledge on the subject - I'd wager that the undeseriable "consequences" of excessive inbreeding of plants are far less noticeable (or quickly noticeable) than mammals.

With that said however, consider breeding a random set of cats. Some will look like the mother, some will look like the father, some will look like a mix. (Usually) All however will have some traits of each parent, slightly noticeable - however for the most part you usually get the above. Now if you bred one of the kittens (one that looks like the mother) back with the mother (to try to perserve the deserable traits of the mother and the kitten that looks like her) you will yield more cats that look like each parent, however at least one will still look like the previous father on the surface. Not only that, but the previous fathers genes are still in the new kittens as well. Continue this process though and you will be able to breed out the father (at least superfically) and have mostly kittens with the mothers original traits... usually with nifity things brought out (as each generation gives the potential to unlock more hidden recessive traits that were always dominated out). Sometimes those traits are neat (like blue eyes on a human), sometimes theres reasons why genes were dominted out.

Like I said though, plants and mammals probably shouldn't be confused in the world of genetics. But I can't say that for sure.

If you did want to compare them - plants do produce a butt-load of pollen, which if it were like sperm, each piece would be carrying different genes.. and a lot more potential offspring at once than any mammal can. That's a lot of diversity. Remember even stable strains have phenotypes.

Bud


(Ps folks please correct me on anything. I'm not a cat breeder or scientist. )

okay great, so a single inbred seed run should be fine then. i would like to experiment with different auto crosses but for the time being ive found one i really like and would just like to have a nice stock of those seeds and have a good bit to do outdoors next year when the weather permits. i was also thinking about possibly just forcing one female to hermie and collecting that pollen to polinate with so i just make feminized seeds.

captainidiot420 said:

... i was also thinking about possibly just forcing one female to hermie and collecting that pollen to polinate with so i just make feminized seeds.

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problem w/ that is your seeds will have a greater chance of creating more hermies

here is a thought....... cant you grow your plant and make it a homafadite, (i dont know how to spell it) and then if you pollenate it with its self then you will get just fem seeds right, tho the traits would be exactly the same as its the same plant....... any ideas on that?

Well what you are calling inbreeding to a breeder is called backcrossing, which is done to reinforce the favorable traits you are looking for in a plant. To stablize a strain there has to be back breeding or you are just continuing to pollinate a strain and making a new hybrid. There are many things to consider when breeding and picking where to backcross, where to cross within the strain (bother/sister). Most people buying from seed banks today are all jumping on f1 strains which will take a longtime of crossing and growing seeds in order to "stabilze" a strain. Why you may ask, very simple you are taking two opposing strains and crossing them and obtaining a new "hybrid" or cross. Now you want to make more of this plant but how? if you think that breeding back to or within a strain is in breeding.
Growone points out correctly it will take many, many many generations of breeding back between brother and sister to inbreed. You have a huge gene pool in an f1 cross waiting to be expressed in future generations, each pheno has an unique set of genes being expressed and crossing within a strain will create a new set until all combos have been expressed.
Just take a look at some IBL such as herijuana which has been around for 20 plus years and is a very healthy plant and has been bred within itself many generations but still retains its vigor and health. It achieves this by crossing phenos which appear within the genepool and backcrossing within the general gene pool. this is a very simple explaination but without going into great detail and lots of time to give you a proper understanding.
Your other question of how breeders make so many seeds of the same strain? That is an easy question, they keep the same mother and fathers in clone and repollinate making identical seeds time after time and year after year. Once you switch a mother or father even from the same strain it will have a different genetic makeup and you won't know what that cross will produce. Exception is when you have IBL, and this isn't always true.
Breeding autos I don't have a clue, worked with one for 2 generations and lost patience with it because I don't really care for autos. But you are going to take awhile and many generations to reproduce a stable strain if ever with the autos. I know many will discount that opinion but I don't see the short cuts available in autos that you can get from regular strains, keeping mothers and fathers.
Here are a couple of links for you to read which will help you understand what I have been attempting to say.
Happy Growing

https://www.rollitup.org/breeders-paradise/395655-creating-true-breeding-strains-vic.html
http://www.mellowgold.com/grow/mjbotany-removed/
https://www.rollitup.org/breeders-paradise/395659-mr-soul-brothers-grimm-cubing.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Punnett_square

Making a F1 then back corssing isn't bad all your doing is pretty much making a " perfect strain " for your needs.

Say you have these kinds of traits in 1 strain that you got ie BC Ice but each of them offer a different thing.

1 - High THC production but not bery bushy and the node spacing isn't close together
2 - Doesn't produce alot of THC but the node spacing is very close
3 - The 3rd one has colour that you'd love to have but the others don't you can use this to make your own strain have a nice colour
4 - Smell. Say you have a strain that doesn't give off a strong smell when in veg or flowering but when you smoke it its really strong. Low order is very good when you don't want alot of smell.

If you took all 4 of those plants that offer what you wanted but none had all of those in 1 make a batch of seeds with 1 and 2 or what ever then backcross it 3 or 4 times with each of them and you get a stable 50/50 of both the strains in 1. Take the 3rd one and cross it into your stable strain that you made then back cross it 3 or 4 times and you have the 3rd one in 1 strain. Take the 4th one breed it into the newest strain then back cross it 3 or 4 times and you have the perfect strain that you want. Choosing the perfect male every time will also help give you the perfect breeding male plant. Also if you have strains that is resistance to mites and such then back cross those into your perfect strain and you can almost make the true perfect strain.

With your perfect strain that you get a male from if you come across a feminized strain for example Green Crack that you can only get as a clone you can take your perfect male plant corss it with the GC strain make F1s then back cross the F1s with the mother GC plant and make regular seeds from it. You could take the Back crossed GC plants get the perfect male and cross it with your perfect BC ICe and you could make a 50/50 strain or w/e with BC Ice and GC.

All in all. Crossing then back crossing to make your own perfect strain will open up new strains that you can make with the perfect DNA and not have to chose between 1 or 2 or w/e different plants on the 1 strain.

Inbreeding with plants is done all the time, no big deal. It's done in nature constantly.

Whole different ballgame than mammals and such.

Wet

mrmadcow said:

problem w/ that is your seeds will have a greater chance of creating more hermies

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i believe your mistaken, if a plant hermies naturally and you use that pollen to pollinate you will have a great chance of having hermie seeds, or if you force it to hermie and it polinates itself and you use those seeds i believe it will also have a great chance of the seeds becoming hermies. on the other hand if you force a true female to hermie then use that pollen to pollinate another true female you get 99.9% feminized seeds that will only have a hermie trait if the original plants had hermie traits. this is how all the seed companies make feminized seeds. i may not know too much about the specifics of breeding but i have done my research on making feminized seeds.

thanks canefan for the link on breeding, if anyone else has any more information on that i would love a link. i cant seem to find too much information on breeding.

i do know about mothers and cloning but i do not have the space or equipment to keep mothers and start clones, small stealth box is all i have right now but in the future i would like to set up something for motherplants and clones. for the time being though i grow all my regular strains outdoors when the weather permits. the autos are just to get me through the months when i cant grow outdoors. no matter how great the outdoor harvest is it never lasts untill the next one, not when you have a houseful of smokers.