IRON deficiency? MAJOR INFO experts only!! +REP

I will add pictures tomorrow my camera died

I am at my wits end with this NIGHTMARE!! This problem has plagued me for last 2 grows. My first hydro grow in same NFT system with same nutrients was fine, it wasnt until second grow that i got this problem. I am now on my fourth grow and it happens everytime. I have detailed journals covering every supplement, water change, temps, nutrients, lights, PH, etc....... I will try to give as much info as possible but feel free to ask me whatever you need to know because i definitely have it written down. Please read all info before commenting and PLEASE DO NOT POST unless you absolutely know what your talking about.
Problem: What i truly believe is going on is an iron deficiency. My reasoning is the plant is yellowing outwards from the petiole(leaf stem) to the tips of the leafs. First symptoms begin and appear almost instantly after moving from veg to flowering cycle and are full blown after 2.5weeks. Symptoms start with the base of leaf turning a lighter green. As days go by the green becomes more yellow along with the veins as it progressively moves outward. During flowering the buds appear to dry out and rosette(stem does not elongate and internodes become compact). The pistols turn dark brown, shrivel and die. Any leaf growth from within buds are distorted, very small and yellow-green. They are oval shaped without the normal sharp tips of the margins. The leaf petiole are VERY brittle, bending them slightly will snap leaves off the plant instantly. Overall growth slows down. Older growth is totally normal. Eventually the entire leaves become yellow as well as the veins. I do not have any burning of the tips or anywhere on the leaves.

VEG: Plants are initially grown in an 18-6 light cycle in 5 gallon DWC buckets with same nutrient line.(house and garden)@ 700ppm. PH 5.7 During veg cycle they do show symptoms of turning lighter green but never become yellow. Water temps in buckets do reach to 80 degrees which is much to high but i haven't had a problem with roots(they are very healthy white) so i have left alone. Air temps are again high at 80 with good circulation or air. Plants are under 6 bulb T5 fluro 2 feet above canopy. 3 strains are being grown. Trainwreck, barneys farm amnesia lemon, blue widow and diesel.

FLOWER: After 2 weeks of veg the 6-8" plants are moved to NFT hydro setup. (square fence post with holes for net cups) Again House garden nutrients @1000-1200PPM. My supplements are superthrive and bud candy. I have 1-1000watt and 1-600 watt HPS agrosun lamps 3 feet above. Air is a high 83 and water is 75. No airstone. 800 GPH pump.


The only luck that APPEARS to be a solution to the yellowing is foliar feeding with 250ml RO water, 10ml of maxicrop WITH iron (2.0%), 6 drops of coco wet, ph down 2 drops. I have to spray almost daily to keep up with deficiency. Obviously there is a serious problem going on somewhere because this is definitly not normal along with the fact that i have one of the same strains(trainwreck) in soil in same room using same nutes and do not have any yellowing at all. My first grow using H&G nutes with same strain and same lights in same room in the same system was fine, the only difference was that i used a different REZ and no water chiller. I also used hydroton instead of sunleaves rocks. I have seen many people using the same rubbermaid Bin that i am using now for a rez without and issue.

Potential Causes and things I have tried:
#1 I stopped using my water chiller which is a do it yourself setup. Its an old water fountain that they use at public places that you lean over and press the little button and the water squirts into your mouth.....like at school ya know. It has a compressor and a coil like a fridge. Well the water is pumped through a long copper coil that is chilled and back into rez. I have pondered the idea that i could be getting a copper toxicity but that would basically mean that all water from tap would cause a copper toxicity since all water pipes are copper but whatever. Also the lower temps make iron harder to absorb.
#2 I dropped my PH to 5.2 to help iron become more available and then raised it to 6.0 just in case it was something else
#3 I tried lowering EC to 1.1 and I switched 3 nutrient lines, General hydroponics, House and Garden and Advanced Nutrients
#4 Tried CAL-MAG
#5 Questioned if it could be the pump causing iron to precipitate out but i used this same pump during first grow with no problem.
#6 i foliar fed with liquid light, i foliar fed with Magic Green, i foliar fed with a light mixture of GH micro formula with NO LUCK
#7 I tried physan 20 because i thought algae was eating nutes.
#8 I tried H2o2
#9 Is it actually NOT an iron deficiency?


It is definitely a problem with a non-mobile element since the only growth affected is new growth. Either IRON, COPPER, MANGANESE, SULFUR or CALCIUM. The older leaves are perfectly fine so please dont tell me its a nitrogen deficiency which get thrown around in here like its going out of style.

How long has this problem been going on? 2.5 weeks in flower
Are you growing in a PVC grow tent? (example: Hydrohut or any other non brand tents) NO
What system are you running? (DWC? Ebb flow? Aero? Water Farm? Flood Tables? and so on...) NFT
What STRAIN are you growing? Trainwreck. Amnesia Lemon. Blue widow. Diesel
What was the establishing technique? (Were the seed or clone?) clone
What is the age of your plants? 1 month
How long have they been in there mixture they are in now?(coco,soiless etc..)2.5 weeks
How tall are the plants? 8-17inches
What PHASE are the plants in? (seedling, vegetative or flower) are the plants in? Flower
What Technique are you using?
What substrate/medium are you using?(Hydroton, RockWool etc.) Sunleaves Rocks
What is the Water temperature? 78
What color are your roots? White? Brown? Are your roots slimy? White and some are stained tan brown from Algen Extract but new tips are white, no slime
What Nutrient's are you using?(If growing soiless) I tried Advanced Nutrients, House and Garden, and General Hydroponics
How much of each nutrient are you using with how much water? *Knowing the brand is very helpful* H&G 14ml/gallon, Advanved 2ml/gallon and general hydro 15ml/gallon
What is the TDS/EC/PPM you are using EC 1.5
What is the pH of the "Tank"? 5.3
How often are you testing your pH/PPM/EC/TDS? every day
Are you sure your calibration is correct on your equipment? calibrate every 3 daYS. I use Hanna HI-98129
What is your water temps? 78-80
When was your last feeding change? (ie. grow-bloom-micro-additional) 4 days ago. I added 5ml/gallon of micro today
How often do you clean your system: example: Flush out water replace with clean water and nutrients? once a week easily
What size bulb are you using? 1-1000w hps 1-600w hps
How old is the bulbs you are using? 5 months
What is the distance to the canopy? 3 feet
What is your RH Factor(Relative Humidity)? 50-60%
What is the canopy temperature? 85
What is the Day/Night Temp? (Include flucutaion range) day 85 night 70
What is the current Air Flow? (cfm etc.) 400cfm
Tell us about your ventilation, intake exhaust and when its running and not running ? fan runs all day extracting heat from bulbs which are sealed off from room. A 20 inch box fan circulates the canopy
Is the fan blowing directly at plants? NO
Is your water HARD or SOFT? 70-100PPM
What water are you using? Reverse Osmosis (RO)? Tap? Bottled? Well water? Distilled? Mineral Water? tap
Are you using water from a water softener? Hell NO
Has plant been recently pruned, cloned off of or pinched NO
Have any pest chemicals been used? If so, What and When? no
Are plant's infected with pest's no

Pretty demanding and critical for a first post. Nice synopsis of your grow though. PH is a bit low at 53, try to get it too around 5.8 53 could very well be locking out some nutrients. And welcome to RIU.

I would check into possible diseases, it's not always deficiencies that can be the cause, check your stems at the base of the plant, and also there is such thing as pests that can cause all kinds of problems...sometimes if you can't treat the deficiency it might not be a deficiency... I use advanced also and I use pro mix...I know yours is hydro but mine is somewhat like that due to the fact that it is soiless.... my problem started with yellow leaves, lookied like banana peels with brown spots once they were totally yellow, thought it was mag, treated... nope... thought it was root bound, transplanted...helped my plant was good for a min, then it went worse, it was spotting, twisting, curling, tips were stringy and looked burnt, new growth yellow or burnt looking, fan leaves were curling under and brown eventually... I researched and researched... looked at every element about my room, checked the leaves under a microscope... no pests... well... I came to the conclusion that my plants had a boron deficiency...only because I researched insanely... my total symptoms included... leaves yellowing, spots on fan leaves, petioles dying, premature leaf drop, new growth dying, looked burnt and/or yellowing, new shoots looked burnt...plants overall growth was slowing... leaves eventually turned brown, brittle and curled...top growth and middle was twisted and deformed... strange symptoms... but I looked into my soil... roots happy, soil ph good...water ph good... around 6.0... room has had high humidity and higher temps... soil is pretty much free from nutrients and most all in one nutrients don't carry things like mag, boron....stuff like that... and boron deficiencies aren't common but when they do happen its in area w/out soil....areas w/ soil that lacks nutrients, areas of high heat and high humidity... BINGO! I still wasn't sure so I well did what you can do and thought well if most of my points aim to boron then I'll try it.. so I treated them with boric acid 1tsp to a gallon and made sure my ph was balanced good in my water.... boric acid (eye wash).... and they are progressing... no more new growth burnt or dying... no more leaves yellowing or brown, we'll see! You never did mention your humidity levels did you? Now I'm no expert and everyone has their own opinion and own way of going about things... but if you look deeper into iron deficiencies they tend to occur when the ph levels are too high... yours seem rather low... so I would steer away from the iron deficiency... check into it, I found that Iron is unavailable when ph is too high... fustrating I know...trust me... it's like you need a bud doctor to come in and say this is what it is take this and do this and you'll be good....LOL don't I wish!!!!!

thats it? no one else has any input? What about over fert? What i dont understand is that if your supposed to keep your plant in the 700-1500ppm range depending on strain, stress, growth period etc. then why do nutes seem to run so hot. Advanced recommends 4ml per liter. I run half that and my PPM is at 800 and thats just base nute. If i were to follow the directions than after aupplements my PPM would be over 2000.

tightbush said:

thats it? no one else has any input? What about over fert? What i dont understand is that if your supposed to keep your plant in the 700-1500ppm range depending on strain, stress, growth period etc. then why do nutes seem to run so hot. Advanced recommends 4ml per liter. I run half that and my PPM is at 800 and thats just base nute. If i were to follow the directions than after aupplements my PPM would be over 2000.

Click to expand...

1.i think you possibly answered your own question.
2.also, i noticed you use tap. have it tested.
3.grow in soil. organically. you will experience true medicine.

Why do you think? The more you use the more they sell. Also thought you were going to post a pic.

Going to take pics now. Yesterday I pulled the plastic tote that I bought at home depot which I had been using for a Rez. My reason is because that is one of the only differences between my first successful grow and now. I highly doubt that this is the problem but i know that some plastics release toxins over time under UV light so i said what the hell ill try. Its polypropylene. I replaced with (2) 5 gallon buckets linked together and filled with R.O. I added 3 capfuls of maxicrop with iron 2%. Before I went to bed the plants looked slightly better.
If I were over fertilizing wouldn't I be experiencing some sort of burn on my leafs? At least the tips at the very least?

I'm sorry if you mentioned this already but what kind of water are you using?

Edit: I see you are using tapwater. What is the ppm? What is the pH? City or well?

How many ppm's of N are you giving at this point? I know you don't think it's a Nitrogen deficiency because it's only on new growth, but perhaps this plant presents differently. Nitrogen is very mobile but if something else is out of whack it may cause problems to look different. You also said the only difference was a different REZ and no water chiller. Take the water chiller out of the equation and see if that doesn't fix things. I don't remember where I read it but I seem to remember seeing something in a grow book that said plants can sometimes have yellowing on new growth if the roots are too cold. I don't know, just throwing some ideas out there.

tightbush said:

Going to take pics now. Yesterday I pulled the plastic tote that I bought at home depot which I had been using for a Rez. My reason is because that is one of the only differences between my first successful grow and now. I highly doubt that this is the problem but i know that some plastics release toxins over time under UV light so i said what the hell ill try. Its polypropylene. I replaced with (2) 5 gallon buckets linked together and filled with R.O. I added 3 capfuls of maxicrop with iron 2%. Before I went to bed the plants looked slightly better.
If I were over fertilizing wouldn't I be experiencing some sort of burn on my leafs? At least the tips at the very least?

Click to expand...

post pics if u want an accurate answer
anybody can guess at ur words

ok here are some pics. Trust me they do not do the original problem any justice. Ever since switching the rez to straight maxicrop plus 2% iron and foliar feeding with maxicrop plus 2%iron the plants leaves made a comeback. You can still see they are not 100% and look how distorted the leaves coming from the buds are

Looks like they are getting a bit to much nutrients, a few of your pics the plants look dark dark green and waxy, and also almost every seed breeder that I have talked to when ordering seeds, they all tell me they never go above 800ppm with nutes, unless its a aeroponic set up.

That's def a possibility since ppm at one point was 1300. Why wouldn't my tips burn though? I always thought first sign of to much nutes was tip burn. Leaves are most def dark dark green on the trainwrecks, almost black ahah. The waxy look could also be from magic green as that's what the product is supposed to do to protect leaves from fungus. Anyone else wanna chime in? Where is Uncle Ben when you need him, the guy knows Everything

well? anyone else care to comment on this

looks like too much water to me.

I have a couple suggestions, esp since you think you are limiting it to non-mobile micro nutrients ...

ADD a Carbohydrate solution to your res ... Whether Bud Candy, SWEET, Floranecter, W8, Mollasses, whatever you choose is best for your setup. The great thing about these is that they will be derived from Magnesium Sulphate and whatnot, and have traces of Calcium and others, too. Check the label, of course. But this would be a great addition for plant health that will also add some of these micros you feel you could be defecient in. The Molasses is actually the more complete out of all of them, as I've found my 'Wholesome Sweeteners Organic Molasses' contains Potassium, Iron, Cal-Mag, & Vitamin B-6 on top of raw sugars that are great for my soil microbial growth, as well as for sugars to be absorbed by the roots. I can tell ever time I use they really appreciate the extra micros & carbs.

I would also consider grabbing a micronutrient complex with ALL the essential micros, and it should also contain AMINO ACIDS as a bonus, maybe some carbs, and look for one that also includes the Vitamin B Complex, (B-1, B-2, B-6, B-12, ...) and start using that in your feeding regimine.

My PERSONAL thought, would be that it's not Iron, Cal, Mag, or Sulpher, esp since you sound aware of this possability and it sounds like you've attempted to solve these in the past. Instead, I would check your labels and see if you are ignoring ZINC!!! If you have Zinc defeciencies, then this would make a lot of sense as to why you aren't solving this problem, as it could be non-existant in your feeding schedule, and will never get solved if you diagnose it as other micronute probs. And this is coming from a nute guru. Check my previous posts & current grow if you want to see my credentials.

I hope this helps homes, sounds like you take your craft seriously and are very scientific in your process, so get that all tuned up and best of luck in the future in keeping this prob at bay!

Cheers

I just hit submit and saw you posted pics on the next page ... Wow, that's def not micronutrient defeciency

You are in the flower phase, yet your plants have WAY TOO MUCH NITROGEN. Look at how green those leaves are. That is not a healthy green. That is dark green. Too much Nitrogen will even give you deformed one points that curl downward from the buds like you have going on in some of your close-ups that you posted.

Stop feeding so much N to your plants, maybe even do a WATER ONLY flush. Actually, not maybe. DO A WATER ONLY FLUSH! You have some toxicity going on right now that you need to solve before adding anything else to your plants. It's too easy for people to look at their plants and say, ya I wanna get 4 oz out of your, or whatever, and think the only way to achieve that is to keep feeding it more n more, when it hasn't even caught up on it's first feed, it's been fed more. This all builds up over time and at times the roots will even give up it gets so harsh, and won't absorb anything else due to NUTRIENT LOCKOUT until it's flushed out and all is well. And yes, the spotting you are seeing is a nutrient burn. Only because you already had too high of levels, and added another micro to try and fix, that is a micronutrient burn you are seeing rather than the typical NPK burn that shows in the tips of the fans more often.

Test the PPM of the runoff when you flush your plants and tell me what the reading is

looks like your plants are trying to reveg. thats all the funny leafy growth over the buds.

OK i did a water only flush a few days ago and the plants did get better however the first second my PH goes above 6 the yellowing starts. I cant believe how little nutrients the plants use. If I start my PPM at 400 they are at 430 the next day! That still means i am over feeding correct? They must be so stressed they dont wanna eat. As far as the weird growth on the buds are you sure thats from the plants trying to reveg?

get an air stone... your roots cannot breath