Looks Like Torture is here to stay

As a US citizen I find our stance on torture appalling and criminal.

Are you familiar with the whole quote from Hitler in your sig? He was actually talking about the Jews' (big surprise) use of the "Big Lie" technique. He was condemning it, not endorsing it. Not that that fact changes his deeds or anything - just thought you'd like to know.

The issue of torture is a sticky one. On one hand, there is the scenario of the ticking bomb hidden somewhere in a city, and a terrorist tied to a chair in a dark room with U.S. agents struggling to find out where the bomb is before it goes off..under these circumstances I would approve torture or whatever it takes to get the job done.

The problem is our government has become so evil we need to protect ourselves from them. I think either way torture will happen regardless of if it is officially illegal or not. The same men who would torture the innocent sure aren't going to worry about breaking an anti-torture law.

email468 said:

As a US citizen I find our stance on torture appalling and criminal.

Are you familiar with the whole quote from Hitler in your sig? He was actually talking about the Jews' (big surprise) use of the "Big Lie" technique. He was condemning it, not endorsing it. Not that that fact changes his deeds or anything - just thought you'd like to know.

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I am familiar with this quote, and my meaning in using it is more in trying to high light as a modern society how we are sucked in to believing a whole range of massive lies, be it that they maybe told for the Greater good or the Evil few, Where do I begin (911, Iraq, Oil Prices etc etc)

shamegame said:

The issue of torture is a sticky one. One one hand, there is the scenario of the ticking bomb hidden somewhere in a city, and a terrorist tied to a chair in a dark room with U.S. agents struggling to find out where the bomb is before it goes off..under these circumstances I would approve torture or whatever it takes to get the job done.

The problem is our government has become so evil we need to protect ourselves from them. I think either way torture will happen regardless of if it is officially illegal or not. The same men who would torture the innocent sure aren't going to worry about breaking an anti-torture law.

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Fair Call, I guess

ozstone said:

I am familiar with this quote, and my meaning in using it is more in trying to high light as a modern society how we are sucked in to believing a whole range of massive lies, be it that they maybe told for the Greater good or the Evil few, Where do I begin (911, Iraq, Oil Prices etc etc)

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Here are some more of Hitlers Quotes, see if you can find relevance in todays world

• All propaganda has to be popular and has to accommodate itself to the comprehension of the least intelligent of those whom it seeks to reach.

• Mankind has grown strong in eternal struggles and it will only perish through eternal peace.

• The art of leadership... consists in consolidating the attention of the people against a single adversary and taking care that nothing will split up that attention.

shamegame said:

The issue of torture is a sticky one. One one hand, there is the scenario of the ticking bomb hidden somewhere in a city, and a terrorist tied to a chair in a dark room with U.S. agents struggling to find out where the bomb is before it goes off..under these circumstances I would approve torture or whatever it takes to get the job done.

The problem is our government has become so evil we need to protect ourselves from them. I think either way torture will happen regardless of if it is officially illegal or not. The same men who would torture the innocent sure aren't going to worry about breaking an anti-torture law.

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I will be the first to admit that part of me would have no problem torturing some bastards out of plain old revenge let alone saving lives. And it does seem absurd to avoid inflicting pain on someone for a few short minutes in order to save hundreds, if not thousands of lives. And it would be foolish of me to think there aren't very strong arguments for the use of torture. If you are for capital punishment, the argument for the use of torture becomes much stronger. The argument is if you are willing to kill to prevent others from being killed then why wouldn't you be willing to hurt in order to prevent others from being killed?

The idealist part of me however reminds the other part that two wrongs do not make a right and the ends never justifies the means. If we act like the barbarians, we become the barbarians.

I'm not pretending to have the ultimate answer just scribbling down my internal arguments.

ozstone said:

Here are some more of Hitlers Quotes, see if you can find relevance in todays world

• All propaganda has to be popular and has to accommodate itself to the comprehension of the least intelligent of those whom it seeks to reach.

• Mankind has grown strong in eternal struggles and it will only perish through eternal peace.

• The art of leadership... consists in consolidating the attention of the people against a single adversary and taking care that nothing will split up that attention.

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he certainly did know human nature very, very well.

email468 said:

he certainly did know human nature very, very well.

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I in no way advocate the great suffering that his rule had on the countless lives of his time, He was a visionary I will give him that.

ozstone said:

I in no way advocate the great suffering that his rule had on the countless lives of his time, He was a visionary I will give him that.

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Studying Hitler is fascinating. When I went to school, the standard argument for explaining Hitler was there is no explanation. He was just plain evil. In fact, trying to explain Hitler was kind of frowned upon.

I'm so glad that is finally changing because in order to prevent things like that in the future, you really have to understand why it happened in the past. And saying Hitler is "evil incarnate" does nothing to prevent if from happening again - in fact it creates a mystique around Hitler that can actually create admirers!

anyway - sorry for the off-topic.

email468 said:

Studying Hitler is fascinating. When I went to school, the standard argument for explaining Hitler was there is no explanation. He was just plain evil. In fact, trying to explain Hitler was kind of frowned upon.

I'm so glad that is finally changing because in order to prevent things like that in the future, you really have to understand why it happened in the past. And saying Hitler is "evil incarnate" does nothing to prevent if from happening again - in fact it creates a mystique around Hitler that can actually create admirers!

anyway - sorry for the off-topic.

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Nah fuck the topic, I agree whole heartedly not that I am an admirer, I also just try and strive to understand the circumstances, thats where religion gets clouded, Hitler believed he was acting in Christian faith, and would not be the first time great Injustices happened to a population based on Christian faith, just take the Crusades for example

someone far smarter than me once said: "It takes nothing for an evil man to commit evil acts but in order for a good man to commit evil acts it takes religion."

wow!thats good shit.

purplehaze2 said:

wow!thats good shit.

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what is good shit?

On waterboarding ...

How many captives in U.S. hands have been waterboarded? Anyone know? What were their names? When these people succumbed to the waterboarding and revealed the information they were asked to give, how long did the waterboarding last? How many lives were saved as a result? What were the evils committed by these men that the waterboarding "forced" them to reveal?

Vi

email468 said:

someone far smarter than me once said: "It takes nothing for an evil man to commit evil acts but in order for a good man to commit evil acts it takes religion."

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I've heard Dawkins say that, but he was quoting someone else.

Very true as well; if a man thinks he's doing something righteously, in the name of a belief which he believes to be certain, that can lead a man to do unprecedented evil acts.

" The world will only be free when the last King is hanged with the entrails of the last priest."

Quote from Some French philosopher, who's name I can't remember.

ViRedd said:

On waterboarding ...

How many captives in U.S. hands have been waterboarded? Anyone know? What were their names? When these people succumbed to the waterboarding and revealed the information they were asked to give, how long did the waterboarding last? How many lives were saved as a result? What were the evils committed by these men that the waterboarding "forced" them to reveal?

Vi

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Apart from being disgustingly inhumane, torture is notoriously unreliable.
I've heard of many cases of people tortured abroad, who have 'revealed' whatever it was the authorities torturing them wanted to hear.
How many lives saved you asked? I can only imagine that with the information they got, say to do with a terrorist hideout, the U.S then napalmed some residential area killing innocent people, as they have done countless times throughout the 20th and 21st century. Breaking a nutshell with a sledge hammer would be a good way of describing it.

email468 said:

Studying Hitler is fascinating. When I went to school, the standard argument for explaining Hitler was there is no explanation. He was just plain evil. In fact, trying to explain Hitler was kind of frowned upon.

I'm so glad that is finally changing because in order to prevent things like that in the future, you really have to understand why it happened in the past. And saying Hitler is "evil incarnate" does nothing to prevent if from happening again - in fact it creates a mystique around Hitler that can actually create admirers!

anyway - sorry for the off-topic.

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completely agree, it's this mystique which gives neo Nazi's such leeway on there beliefs. I'm sure the majority don't know, and wouldn't agree with his view on anti vivisection, and vegetarianism.

Again ...

How many enemy combatants have been waterboarded, who were they and what information was extracted from them?

Vi

ViRedd said:

Again ...

How many enemy combatants have been waterboarded, who were they and what information was extracted from them?

Vi

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We don't know because the government, and all of its agencies won't tell us.
It's like asking the DEA where its next big drugs bust is going to be.