No meduim Ebb and Flow/NFT questions...

WillieP

WillieP

Well-Known Member
Looking for directions to info about a specific grow style. Grow Journals, How to's, anything I can study up on.

I really like the idea of Ebb and Flow that uses as little grow medium as possible. That requires that the tray be covered so that the roots, as they expand, are not exposed to light. KLX does this style with 2 inch net pots and hydroton. I've also seen something similar done with setting 4 inch rockwool cubes on a NTF material.
It seems like there would be a learning curve to this type of system... How often to flood,... for how long? (What material used would seem to add questions in this area.)
Considered hydroton in fabric pots... So many possibilities and I have so many questions. But if you were able to get the specifics worked out, I think that this could be a really simple and productive system.

Do any of ya'll have any experience with this type of thing???
Can you point me in the right direction??
(I've tried the search engine every way I know how, to some success)

For full disclosure...
I am a complete Noob, who does not even have one grow under my belt.
My state will not be legal till January so I'm still in the research stage.

Cheers,
WillieP
 
ToFarGone

ToFarGone

Well-Known Member
FYI KLX doesn’t use any hydroton just straight up roots in the table but why don’t you ask him directly @klx
 
WillieP

WillieP

Well-Known Member
ToFarGone said:
FYI KLX doesn’t use any hydroton just straight up roots in the table but why don’t you ask him directly @klx
Click to expand...
ToFar
I just checked that thread, and your are correct. My Bad. 2 inch net cups with neoprene collars.
I've read so many options, that I messed that up.
I have chatted with KLX about the possible setups, and he was really helpful. Just looking for more info out there.
Thanks for straightening me out.

Cheers,
WillieP
 
SuperiorBuds

SuperiorBuds

Well-Known Member
I run ebb and flow in hydroton using the 10 gallon medical planters from The Bucket Company. The pump runs 24/7 and the E&F is controlled via an automatic siphon (no moving parts or electricity, simply physics).

Take a look at the folks running aquaponics -- my system is based around what they've been doing for years. I don't ever have to worry about over or under-watering. Nutrient and pH changes are reflected quickly in the plant so adjustments are easy. Filters catch any solids that get cycled back through. Overall it's low maintenance and just works, even if I have to go away for a week.

Ask any questions you have and I'll try and answer.
 
WillieP

WillieP

Well-Known Member
Superior,
Thanks for the pointer.
I have looked into the auto siphon, (I had to look it up, as I had never heard of it). Very cool concept. I watched some videos on the 'how to' of the aquaponics, and was impressed. I would want to do the DIY thing, as that is part of the fun for me, and it seemed like it would be a little tricky to get the timing right. But with that said, once you got it set up, it seemed like it would be very reliable.
I will be running a very small set up, and I feel that I would like to start with a short duration, high frequency flood timing. 5 minutes out of every 30, 1 minute out of every 5, 15 minutes out of every hour??? I really don't know. The aero guys run really short, like 30 sec on, 3 minutes off, and it seems like if you're running no medium, that it would be similar to the aero systems. Although I've read that timing doesn't really make that much difference, as long as the roots don't dry out, get plenty of 'air', and still stay moist.
I'm just fumbling in the dark of now. I think until I get a system set up and can play with it, that it's all just guess work. However, it never hurts to ask those that have been there before you.

Cheers,
WillieP
 
SuperiorBuds

SuperiorBuds

Well-Known Member
Keep in mind there are many different types of siphons. Most of the aquaponics guys use the bell siphon, but I found that too difficult to get balanced. I used a modified U siphon built from random PVC parts last time and it worked really well. This time around I've gone even simpler with a loop siphon and so far so good.

I ran high pressure aero for nearly a year but the timing was what caused me to move on. It's just too annoying to mess with it constantly, plus the plants needs change as they mature making it even harder to dial in. My current setup runs the pump 24/7 and it floods and drains as often as it does -- doesn't matter to me really as long as the hydroton never dries out. When it's flooded it's basically DWC, then it drains via suction which removes any dead plant material/build-up in the grow beds and flushes them back to the res where the junk gets trapped by the in-line filters. Then the cycle repeats as it top-fills again. Since the res is aerated constantly and has a waterfall back in from the beds, I never have an O2 issue at the roots.

The first iteration of this system I built cost me less than $100. I used an old garage sink as the grow bed with the drain hooked to the siphon feeding back into the res below. A cheap pump sent the water up for top-feeding and we were off.

This can be "simple and cheap" or "complex and expensive" -- it's all up to you. :)
 
ToFarGone

ToFarGone

Well-Known Member
My only really suggestion is to not reinvent the wheel. Seems like your interested in the above setup and there’s someone willing to help you set it up. Learning it by trial and error with your own custom design can lead to a lot of wasted time money and plants
 
WillieP

WillieP

Well-Known Member
SuperiorBuds said:
Keep in mind there are many different types of siphons. Most of the aquaponics guys use the bell siphon, but I found that too difficult to get balanced. I used a modified U siphon built from random PVC parts last time and it worked really well. This time around I've gone even simpler with a loop siphon and so far so good.

I ran high pressure aero for nearly a year but the timing was what caused me to move on. It's just too annoying to mess with it constantly, plus the plants needs change as they mature making it even harder to dial in. My current setup runs the pump 24/7 and it floods and drains as often as it does -- doesn't matter to me really as long as the hydroton never dries out. When it's flooded it's basically DWC, then it drains via suction which removes any dead plant material/build-up in the grow beds and flushes them back to the res where the junk gets trapped by the in-line filters. Then the cycle repeats as it top-fills again. Since the res is aerated constantly and has a waterfall back in from the beds, I never have an O2 issue at the roots.

The first iteration of this system I built cost me less than $100. I used an old garage sink as the grow bed with the drain hooked to the siphon feeding back into the res below. A cheap pump sent the water up for top-feeding and we were off.

This can be "simple and cheap" or "complex and expensive" -- it's all up to you. :)
Click to expand...
Superior,
The bell siphon is the only one that I studied, I will have to look into the other styles. Thanks for the tip.
I like the simplicity of the Ebb and Flow system, and also the idea of not having to use a medium.
As I mentioned in the opening post, I really like KLX's system. However, he runs a larger tray and runs it as a SOG.
I would only be running 2 plants in flower, and running them in a SCROG. I would like to use individual 'trays', (the tubs that bus boys use to clear your dishes from the table), and I am leaning towards individual reservoirs also. Why? If I run to different strains, I can adjust nutes to each if needed, and if I get nasties in one it wouldn't infect the other. I don't know what other differences there are between running a large SOG and a small SGROG, (complete Noob) but I reckon I'm gonna find out.
I'm the tinkering type, and enjoy the 'how inexpensively can I do this' game. I will build it myself and change it if I feel the need.
I would have felt pride in smoking the first crop off of your $100 system.
Cheers,
WillieP
 
WillieP

WillieP

Well-Known Member
ToFarGone said:
My only really suggestion is to not reinvent the wheel. Seems like your interested in the above setup and there’s someone willing to help you set it up. Learning it by trial and error with your own custom design can lead to a lot of wasted time money and plants
Click to expand...
ToFar,
Definitely not reinventing the wheel.
There are however lots and lots of different types of wheels, big ones, little ones, fragile ones, really strong ones...
I've been researching what method I would use for months, and I have changed my mind on what type of system I would like to use.
The more I read and the more I learn, the more my viewpoint has changed. I'm not a leap before you look type a guy; if I was I'm use I would have wasted time, money and plants by now.
I will continue to fine tune the plan, I have till January till I can grow anyway.
Plan the work, work the plan.
Cheers,
WillieP
 
SuperiorBuds

SuperiorBuds

Well-Known Member
WillieP said:
I like the simplicity of the Ebb and Flow system, and also the idea of not having to use a medium.
Click to expand...
I'm not sure we're on the same page here when you say no medium. Ebb and flow still relies on grow media -- whether that be coco, soil, or in my case hydroton. This ensures that the plant still has access to water during the drain cycle, while the incoming flow will bring in fresh, highly oxygenated water.

I guess you could run E&F like you would a DWC with the roots entirely exposed but at that point I think you'd be better off with a straight DWC setup and eliminate the added complexity.
 
myke

myke

Well-Known Member
A 2 tote dwc was my first system,2 plants in 1 tote the other was the rez.As simple as it gets,Here years later fiddling with other systems I find myself wondering why I dont just go back.
 
Keesje

Keesje

Well-Known Member
SuperiorBuds said:
Ebb and flow still relies on grow media -- whether that be coco, soil, or in my case hydroton.
Click to expand...
You can run ebb&flow without a medium. KLX on this forum for example shows how he does it.
The stem is put in a neoprene collar and that's it.
 
SuperiorBuds

SuperiorBuds

Well-Known Member
Keesje said:
You can run ebb&flow without a medium. KLX on this forum for example shows how he does it.
The stem is put in a neoprene collar and that's it.
Click to expand...
Eh, you could -- but you're losing most of the benefits. The medium provides access to water between cycles, as well as provides stability for the large plants that can be produced using this method. Not to mention you have to move a lot more water since there's no medium offsetting the volume. My 8 plant, 10 gallon setup would require 80 gallons per cycle vs the 15 gallons I move now.

Now I'm not saying he can't be successful, I've seen plants grown in stranger ways. But at that point I'd prob just go RDWC since it's basically the same system, just less water.
 
WillieP

WillieP

Well-Known Member
Hi All,
So unless something changes, I'm looking at a system very similar to KLX's.
See Here: https://www.rollitup.org/t/the-klx-way.960314/

Only mine will be much smaller with only one plant per 'tray', and individual reservoirs per tray.
Trays will be the totes that a bus boy uses, and will only take approximately 4-5 gal to flood. I will use 15 gal cylinder containers as reservoirs filled to approximately 12 gal. I figured a 2.5-3 to 1 ratio for res to tray was a decent volume ratio. Also planning to use bennies, and only changing out 70% of the reservoir volume at a time, similar to aquarium water changes, to preserve the living positive bacteria instead of killing it off each reservoir change.
If things go to hell on me, it doesn't seem that it would be a huge leap to add a fabric pot with hydroton. But I like the idea of this system, and feel it's worth a go.
I will be SCROGing so not concerned about supporting the plant.
Seeds came in. Tent is on order. DIY LED light nearly complete.
Moving forward, still can't grow till January.

Cheers,
WillieP
 
R

RocketBoy

Well-Known Member
Flood and drain with out a medium is definitely a waste of nutrients and very inefficient. A better and efficient system would be to use some low pressure sprayers on a timer with the flood tables and covers.
 
ToFarGone

ToFarGone

Well-Known Member
My biggest suggestion is if your running the KLX way best learn to aero clone. His system works because none of the plant is In contact with medium. If you try and clone in rockwool or into peat and then put it into a system similar to his you will kill your plants. I sat this as any medium you root your seeds into will hold substantially more moisture then roots in air. You will end up rotting your stem inside any medium just trying to keep the roots below moist. Ask me how I know this.
 
ToFarGone

ToFarGone

Well-Known Member
RocketBoy said:
Flood and drain with out a medium is definitely a waste of nutrients and very inefficient. A better and efficient system would be to use some low pressure sprayers on a timer with the flood tables and covers.
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That’s fully debatable. Flood and drain with no medium just means you flood more often. The drain is all reused. No different then any ebb and flow setup. He’s not talking about DTW
 
R

RocketBoy

Well-Known Member
ToFarGone said:
That’s fully debatable. Flood and drain with no medium just means you flood more often. The drain is all reused. No different then any ebb and flow setup. He’s not talking about DTW
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I'm also not talking about DTW. I'll make it simple, Clay pebbles take up space, less space = less nutrient solution to fill the table.
 
ToFarGone

ToFarGone

Well-Known Member
RocketBoy said:
I'm also not talking about DTW. I'll make it simple, Clay pebbles take up space, less space = less nutrient solution to fill the table.
Click to expand...

Or he has the benefit of a larger reserve and therefore less ph swings? And if he feels so inclined can use his nutrient solution longer as it will take longer for the plants to drink till there is a good elemental inbalance?

He’s talking about having x2 12gal res, 24 gallons or solution is a lot less then most RDWC guys run?
 
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