OFFICIAL CMH THREAD! (Post Your Ceramic Metal Halide Grows, ?'s & Experiences Here!)

[SativaMe@420]

Hello fellow growers, well its 2012 and lets face it, times they are a changing, with the advancement of LED's, High Output Florescent, Plasma Induction etc. this is a constantly evolving industry and really goes without saying that there are some very exciting times ahead. Now a lot of people think that CMH is new, on the contrary actually as it was originally developed in the late 60's, however it wasn't until fairly recently that they were recognized as great grow lights.
OK, so with the new year I thought we should have a thread to compile our CHM grows, questions, experiences etc. since all the information about them is scattered through out the fourm. I'm about to start a small 400W CMH closet grow and when I was trying to find information about them it wasn't so easy, there's hardly any reviews or videos and everything seems to be scattered around the internet.
So right now I have nothing growing, waiting on electrical work and some more equipment, so in the mean time I'll share the best place Ive found to get (Philips MasterColor Ceramic Metal Halide bulbs), why are they the best? Because they are the only company that Pre-Burns there bulbs, trust me this is important to ensure you get a 100% operational bulb as they have a high initial failure rate. Here is a spectral distribution comparison of a Philips MasterColor CMH bulb vs a standard HPS bulb:
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Not all CMH bulbs are the same, based on the reasearch Ive done the Philips MasterColor CMH is the best, here is another spectral distribution comparison of a Philips Master Color CMH vs a GE CMH:
The Philips clearly produces a fuller spectrum.

So please feel free to ask questions or share your Ceramic Metal Halide experiences here, take care and keep em GREEN!

 

[SativaMe@420]

Come on people, I know that several of you have CMH grows underway so can someone please share some pics or something, PLEASE? There are many people who are interested in CMH but there just isn't enough reviews/results available for people to make an informed decision, practically everyone who has used them swears by them so let it be known how good they work people! As I mentioned CMH is quite new to the growing scene so the more information we compile the better equipped we'll be to deal with issues, SO START COMPILING PEOPLE!!!

 

[Rcb]

i am very interested ive been talking about theses with like every grower i known but i cant find anyone using them im going to buy some soon to try regardless if i find more info soon or not just need to try for myself and also only problem i have with them so far is this..as you can see in the spectrum charts you posted these bulbs put off a lot of the green spectrum light and from what i heard green doesnt NOTHING to plants just wasted...so would i be paying for a useless light cause all the green light does it take more green from my pocket to Electricity bill...

 

[VICTORYGARDENSHYDRO]

I sell and recommend the 400 watt cmh, I have customers that veg with it, some have flowered with it. the heat is very minimal, but the plants love the spectrum.

 

[xmax]

I just ordered one over the weekend. $58. out the door, runs cool on a magnetic ballast, has both spectrums, what's not to like?

 

[LSDreamer]

Will these work in digital ballasts? I have 2 phantom 1k's and a Sun System galaxy. If they do, I will gladly run a test on them next go through.

 

[hyphae]

Will these work in digital ballasts? I have 2 phantom 1k's and a Sun System galaxy. If they do, I will gladly run a test on them next go through.

Nope, unfortunately you need a magnetic hps only ballast to operate them.

 

[Thedillestpickle]

wow thank you for this thread, this look like a very good option for veg and a much better option than using normal MH as supplement to HPS during flower. here a good link http://www.growlightexpress.com/pages/ceramic-metal-halide-pv-c0-2.html
I don't think they have a 600 available just yet, starting to feel a little better that I bought magnetic ballasts instead of digital

Of course my ballasts are 600's so I guess I just gotta wait still for the 600 CMH... come on philips, that colour spectrum look amazing!

Edit: though now that I think of it that colour spectrum definately looks too good to be true... It doesnt really add up, unless they are compairing their CMH to a 30watt incandecent or something. Still looking forward to the 600 though!
any idea's when thats coming out?(if ever)

 

[SativaMe@420]

Do a little Googleing or search through the forums for Ceramic Metal Halide grows and you'll see that almost every person who has or is using CMH has nothing but good things to say, regardless of the wasted spectrum they may produce (which I imagine would be minimal) the results speak for them selves and people are getting very impressive results, and whats one thing you simply can not argue with, RESULTS! From what I hear CMH really shines in flowering when you use it with HPS, something about those two together that plants just love.

 

[Brick Top]

I sell and recommend the 400 watt cmh, I have customers that veg with it, some have flowered with it. the heat is very minimal, but the plants love the spectrum.

Since you seem to know CMH bulbs, can you tell me what value the various wavelength/spectrum that plants hardly use or don't use at all that the bulbs put out are worth? Every bulb has a max output and since CMH bulbs put out a lot of wavelength/spectrum that plants hardly use or do not use at all, doesn't that cut down on the amount of wavelength/spectrum that the plants need and use the most at different stages of growth?

Wouldn't it make more sense to flood plants with the most amount of light in the wavelength/spectrum they need during the vegetative stage of growth and then during flower rather than give them all the rest that is of little to no use to them and in doing so give them less of what they do need and use?

 

[SCARHOLE]

I use both in flower &veg, wider spectrum cant hurt I figure.

 

[Brick Top]

I use both in flower &veg, wider spectrum cant hurt I figure.

My question is whatever wattage a bulb may be it will put out a max amount of light .. call it 'X' .... and if part of what makes up 'X' is wavelength/spectrum that plants either hardly use at all, or do not use at all, of what value is it and doesn't that mean that there will be less of the wavelength/spectrum plants do need and use than if someone used bulbs that only, or mainly just put out that wavelength/spectrum (as in each type of bulb, MH & HPS) because part of the bulbs total ability or capacity to create light, 'X' is partially used to create the wavelength/spectrum that plants hardly use or do not use at all?

 

[Brick Top]

BLAH>BLAH>BLAH, 100% of the people that use these bulbs ABSOLUTELY LOVE THEM, they flat out work , have low heat,low purchase price,low use price. You can get all technical if you like, but you can't argue with facts. People come back and buy them over and over and over for a reason. And one more thing, I asked in another thread, Didn't you take your ball and go home? Wasn't there a thread you posted saying you were out of here?WTF?

"You can get technical if you like, but you can't argue with facts." Well, that is what I am asking for, the technical part, the facts about what use all the extra light spectrum is since much of it is hardly, if at all, used by plants.

I am simply asking what benefit the broader spectrum that is talked up or bragged about actually is?

Nice try at a sales pitch though with the; "100% of the people that use these bulbs ABSOLUTELY LOVE THEM, they flat out work" .. but what about my question? I can't be the only grower in the world who would like to know what I asked?

Your answer might make me a believer, so give me the straight facts, go all technical on me, OK?


My question is whatever wattage a bulb may be it will put out a max amount of light .. call it 'X' .... and if part of what makes up 'X' is wavelength/spectrum that plants either hardly use at all, or do not use at all, of what value is it and doesn't that mean that there will be less of the wavelength/spectrum plants do need and use than if someone used bulbs that only, or mainly just put out that wavelength/spectrum (as in each type of bulb, MH & HPS) because part of the bulbs total ability or capacity to create light, 'X' is partially used to create the wavelength/spectrum that plants hardly use or do not use at all?


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[Phaeton]

That absorption spectrum for chlorophyll posted above is from chlorophyll homogenized and put in a stirred solution, the spectrum read by what comes out the other side. Plants with the chlorophyll inside and alive used all wavelengths between 380 and 780 within 12% of each other.
Logic would indicate that the bulb with the smoothest output (no spectral spikes) would put more energy into the plant.

This seems born out in the reports from growers. I did change to 50% LED in my new room, but clone and veg is 90% CMH and I can't see it changing without some major scientific breakthrough. My HPS ballasts have retro white CMH's in them.

 

[Brick Top]

That absorption spectrum for chlorophyll posted above is from chlorophyll homogenized and put in a stirred solution, the spectrum read by what comes out the other side. Plants with the chlorophyll inside and alive used all wavelengths between 380 and 780 within 12% of each other.

So, you are saying that where one chart says; "Light beyond 700 nm has insufficient energy to drive photosynthesis" and "Light beyond 700 nm has insufficient quantum yield to drive photosynthesis" are inaccurate? And what about between roughly 550 nm and 625 nm where is shows extremely little absorption rate, that's incorrect too?



The charts, other than the CMH and HPS comparison charts, all came from a botanical site that explained the process of photosynthesis. Are you saying the information is inaccurate or misleading or what?

 

[Brick Top]

I don't have a lighting degree, What I have is facts from real world use. You can call it a sells pitch, but it is the truth. I sell more of these things then most bulbs and people come back for more.
They call and tell me how well it works for them, I read online that people use and like them. Sorry,but that's all i got for you.

So you do not know how Chlorophyll A and Chlorophyll B absorb light at different rates when it's in different wavelengths/spectrum or how the various pigments absorb light at different rates in different wavelengths/spectrum, but you somehow still know a CMH bulb is best? How?

I would think that since you sell the product you would have all that information down cold. Don't customers ask you questions like this? I know I sure would if I was contemplating a purchase of this type.

I spent my life in sales and I not only knew every single thing about the products I sold, I knew more about our competitors products than their people knew. That was how I took my business from selling 20 to 25 boats a year to selling 250 boats a year myself and turned the business into the second largest dealer in the U.S. and for three years running I was the number one salesperson in the nation for Crest.

I really think you need to bone up on plants and on your products.

 

[Phaeton]

No, the charts are correct for what the chlorophyll itself uses to break water molecules and attach the hydrogen to a carbon. The plant does so much more than just make sugar, these processes also take energy, and being such a smart plant it uses frequencies that do not interfere with eating.
Part of this communcation problem is caused by the plant being such a multipart system, literally thousands of chemicals interacting.
The simple Y - X = Z, the amount of waste light does not exist. The cross section of its working at any exact moment is not representative, cannot be representative of the entire life cycle of the plant.

The chlorophyll chart is a snapshot of a very specific system within the plant, like our intestines.
This does not represent the whole.

PS: I am a fan of Bricktop, cool movie.

 

[roachclip420]

Day 28 of 12/12 in a 4x4 tent with 400w of horz cmh. People can say whatever they want...but I will never go back to using only hps. Only reason why I would use hps again is to mix the spectrum some more.

 

[SativaMe@420]

Hey Brick Top, I'm sure you are right that the Philips MasterColor CMH dose produce some (how much I don't know) wasted light in spectrum's the plant doesn't use, I believe this is because the bulb is manufactured for interior/exterior & security lighting and not for growing, if Philips was producing a CMH specifically for growing I'm sure the spectrum would be different, it would be interesting to see what they would come up with that's for sure.

Hey Roach Clip, looking really good so far, are you running just the 400W CMH or are you supplementing HPS? From what Ive heard/read making the scrog screen a little smaller works better, ideally you want each bud to have its own square, at least that's what Ive been told.

 

[roachclip420]

Hey Brick Top, I'm sure you are right that the Philips MasterColor CMH dose produce some (how much I don't know) wasted light in spectrum's the plant doesn't use, I believe this is because the bulb is manufactured for interior/exterior & security lighting and not for growing, if Philips was producing a CMH specifically for growing I'm sure the spectrum would be different, it would be interesting to see what they would come up with that's for sure.

Hey Roach Clip, looking really good so far, are you running just the 400W CMH or are you supplementing HPS? From what Ive heard/read making the scrog screen a little smaller works better, ideally you want each bud to have its own square, at least that's what Ive been told.

The philips mastercolor is for warehouse lighting. Philips knows people are using them for growing...but in order to produce them in mass they would have to rebuild many of their factories and until cmh hits the horticulture world hard and proves for a good investment they will not remodel. Which is a good thing...keeps bulbs nice and cheap for people like me

Im supplementing with just a 90w chinese ufo, it was more of a test grow to try out cmh. And I wouldnt call that an official scrog its just more to support the heavy nugs up top. All those colas are just from defoliation/topping. Thanks though