Organic Flowering Choices; input wanted please...

NightbirdX

Well-Known Member
So I am trying out a new organic soil mix:

1 bag Ocean Forest
1 bag Happy Frog
4 Gallons of Pro-Mix
2 Gallons of Perlite
1 1/2 Gallons EWC
3 cups Kelp Meal
3 cups Dolomite Lime
2 cups Insect Frass
1 cup Azomite
1 cup Mykos
10 TBS Azos
1 bag local mint compost

I was trying to get a water only mix, but it still seems like the plants can take more, that being said I have a few options in front of me regarding how I want to flower and I plan on doing a few different ways, ultimately, I am going to try out some Super Soil soon, but I wanted to take this opportunity to try a few things to see how they work. I have a lot of things on hand and have picked up quite a few things over the years, so I am looking to put them to use.

Option #1: I use BioCanna as my base in my soilless run, so I am going to use that on some of them.

Option #2: Botanicare Organicare dry ferts. Anyone ever use this stuff? I received a couple bags, veg and bloom, and was gonna sprinkle some on and try water only. Anyone have any experience with this line?

Option #3: I have a lot of left over stuff from making super soil and some other mixes I have used. Blood Meal, Bone Meal, Budswell Yellow dry, Alfalfa Meal, Kelp Meal, Greensand, Rock Phosphate, and Epsom Salt. I was going to make a mix to top dress and water in on the day that I flipped them. I am using 5 gal nursery pots, so not a true 5 gal, more like 3 gals. Anyone have any suggestions on what measurements I should use to add? I plan on mixing it all together, enough for one pot, and then topdressing it. Does this sound about right? Anything missing or anything anyone would add?
 

Rising Moon

Well-Known Member
I am guessing that you are on the west coast, possibly Oregon, b/c you mentioned local mint compost. One thing to be aware of, is the mint compost is notorious for being loaded with pesticides and other toxic agrochemicals. They might effect the "micro herd" your trying to grow in your soil. Just my 2 cents.
 

doublejj

Well-Known Member
Yeah, other than the mint compost, it sounds good to me.
However I know nothing about mint compost, you must have some first hand knowledge to work with.
If your sure it won't be harmfull,then what the hell

Good luck
peace
doublejj
P.S. I wonder if the mint compost will give the weed a mint flavor?
 

vilify

Well-Known Member
you can take those extra ingredients and bubble up a tea to feed.
i was going to do that, before i decided to just go with a super soil.

there are a few vids online on how to do it, with measurements. maybe cut them a bit since there are nutes in the soil.

other than that the soil looks great. just some heavy feeders i suppose
 

NightbirdX

Well-Known Member
Yeah, other than the mint compost, it sounds good to me.
However I know nothing about mint compost, you must have some first hand knowledge to work with.
If your sure it won't be harmfull,then what the hell

Good luck
peace
doublejj
P.S. I wonder if the mint compost will give the weed a mint flavor?
The mint compost is the leftover mint hay from the distillation process. It really has no odor. It is just a high nutrient compost that is 100% organic, all natural everything that is good and has a "-ganic," this qualifies, lol. I don't really know if it hurts or it doesn't, but I figure it brings a little extra something to my soil that wasn't there before. It also helps support a local family farm that has been going for a long while and does a lot of good for the community.

http://www.peppermintjim.info/soil-rejuvenator/

you can take those extra ingredients and bubble up a tea to feed.
i was going to do that, before i decided to just go with a super soil.

there are a few vids online on how to do it, with measurements. maybe cut them a bit since there are nutes in the soil.

other than that the soil looks great. just some heavy feeders i suppose
I was thinking about this with guanos, doing a Peruvian Seabird Guano at week 1 of flowering, a Jamaican or Indonesian guano at week 3-4, and then maybe something else at week 6, watering in between.
 

Wetdog

Well-Known Member
Add some of that bone meal to your mix. Double bone for the amount of N, like, 1cup of N=2cups of bone.

For flowering you want more P&K=bone meal (P) and kelp meal (K). Some alfalfa just for S&G.

For bottled stuff, I have no idea.

Wet
 

blueJ

Active Member
Yes, please do elaborate....i don't know why, but all this talk of boning and double boned is gettin' me randy! :D S&G too, whats that some twisted form of S&M?
 

Wetdog

Well-Known Member
Hell, I'm even more lost! LOL I confused myself.

Are you making the soil, or are there plants in the mix you described, or ????????

When making a mix, a rough rule of thumb is 2x bone meal to blood meal. Like 1/2cup blood meal and 1 cup bone meal/cf of mix.

If you are getting ready to go into flower, but not right away, I'd suggest a top dress with the dry bloom nutes, the organicare. I'd allow a week or 2 for those to kick in. Minimum You sorta have to plan ahead with dry organic nutes.

If you're already in flower, the bottled stuff would be your best bet. But, no experience with those.

Takes a few grows to get the mix dialed in just right for a strain.

Wet

S&G=shits and giggles
 

NightbirdX

Well-Known Member
I have them in 5 gal nursery pots and am going to top dress either Botanicare (needs to happen soon,) or Bloodmeal, Bone Meal, Kelp, and some Alfalfa Meal. What dosages would you recommend starting at? Maybe like 2 TBS Blood Meal, 4 TBS Bone Meal, 2 TBS Kelp, 2 TBS Alfalfa Meal?
 

Da Almighty Jew

Well-Known Member
be careful with top dressing organic ferts. they can still burn... make sure you put epsom salts in the soil mix too for much needed mag. also i would just go ahead and put everything all at once into your soil if your going to make up new soil. not trying to undermine wet but the super soil recipe requires equal amounts of bone and blood meal so i don't see why anyone would do anything diffrent.. also i dont know how big of feeders your plants are but 1 tbls of high p bat guano per 5 gallons once a week sould do your plants good. maybe slighty more or less.
 

NightbirdX

Well-Known Member
I'll add all the amendments next time I mix, I'm pretty confident on how to add them in a cu ft mixture, but as for now with my plants in their containers, if I wanted to top dress the Blood Meal, Bone Meal, Kelp Meal, Alfalfa Meal, and Epsom salts, where should I begin? Would 1 tsp Epsom, and 2 TBS of everything else be a good place to start?
 

woodsmaneh!

Well-Known Member
You got to add 20% worm casting by volume, it's the real thing and even Subcool is using it now. Used it for 10 years and my plants never look so good, no bugs, no nothing and is good for 1 to 2 years. Here is more info.....

What are Worm Castings?
Worm Castings are Mother Nature’s soil enrichment of choice. This rich humus-like digested output of the worm includes a wide range of nutrients and microbial life that all types of vegetation require to grow. Worm Castings are one of the most natural soil enrichments available and more importantly are environmentally friendly, all natural, easy to use, and safe to handle, with a pleasant earthy aroma.

What do Worm Castings do? Worm Castings restore soil health in many ways.
· A source of organic matter with lots of nutrients a nd moisture-holding capacity. Worm
Castings hold 9 times their weight in moisture, which is beneficial in drought
conditions .
· Adds active microbial life to the soil, allowing it to slowly release and make the
valuable nutrient and trace minerals more available to tender plant roots.
· Rich in growth hormones and vitamins, and acts as a powerful biocide against
diseases and nematodes.
· A natural aerator, allowing oxygen to permeate the root zone to improve drainage and
encourage root growth.
· Restores soil without fear of burning or harming tender plant life.
Restoring the soil makes nutrients more available to crops, turf applications and desired
vegetation. This means there is less need for synthetic fertilizers and pesticides. Best of all, Worm Castings contain no toxins and are therefore safe to use without fear of ground water contamination.

How are Worm Castings different from Compost?
Worm Castings are significantly better than compost. They are the result of carefully selected compost that is fully digested by worm. This makes Worm Castings an entirely mature product. It contains no pathogenic agents, and is considered a biological product which is convenient to handle. Worm Castings contain a far more diverse microbial population than other composts. These micro-organisms play an important part in soil fertility. Not only do they mineralize complex substances into plant-available nutrients, but bacteria in the worm’s digestive system also synthesize a whole series of biologically active substances including plant growth hormones.

How do Worm Castings work?
Worm Castings are an all-purpose natural soil enrichment that is pure earthworm castings. It is 100% non-toxic and odourless. It is the product of aerobically composted vegetable scraps fed to earthworms, and free from weed seeds, toxins and pathogens.

WORM CASTINGS

Worm Castings improve Soil Structure in all Soil Types
Worm Castings restore soil structure. The term “soil structure” is used to describe the way soil particles are grouped into aggregates. Soil structure is affected by biological activity, organic matter, and cultivation and tillage practices. Soil fertility and structure are closely related. An ideal soil structure is often described as granular or crumb-like. It provides for good movement of air and water through a variety of different pore sizes. Plant roots extend down, and soil animals – including small earthworms – travel through the spaces between the aggregates. An ideal soil structure is also stable and resistant to erosion. The clay-humus complex, in combination with adequate calcium which helps to bind the aggregates together, forms the basis of this structure. The glutinous by-products of soil bacteria and the hair-like threads of actinomycetes and fungi mycelium add to soil stability. All tillage operations change soil structure. Excessive cultivation, especially for seedbed preparation, can harm soil structure. Working clay soil when wet leads to compaction and subsequent soil puddling. The soil is easily puddled by rain, easily eroded, and will have poor aeration. Tillage, when too dry, shatters the aggregates. Soil structure can be enhanced by careful cultivation, growing sod crops and returning crop residues. Worm Castings (organic matter) and the humification process improve structural stability, and can rebuild degraded soil structures. Therefore it is vital to return organic material to the soil and to maintain its biological activity, which helps to improve the soil structure.

How Worm Castings work with Soil pH
Worm Castings act like a buffer for plants. Where soil pH levels are too high or low, Worm Castings make soil nutrients available again to the plant. Compared to the soil itself, Worm Castings are much higher in bacteria, organic material and available nitrogen, calcium, magnesium, phosphorus and potassium.

WORM CASTINGS

Soil Biology
Soil organisms play an important role in forming and stabilizing soil structure. In a healthy soil ecosystem, fungal filaments and exudates from microbes and earthworms help bind soil particles together into stable aggregates that improve water infiltration and protect soil from erosion, crusting and compaction. Macrospores formed by earthworms and other burrowing creatures facilitate the movement of water into and through soil. Good soil structure enhances root development, which further improves the soil.
Restoring soil structure helps reduce runoff and improve the infiltration and filtering capacity of soil. In a healthy soil ecosystem, soil organisms reduce the impacts of pollution by buffering, detoxifying- and decomposing potential pollutants. Bacteria and other microbes are increasingly used for remediation of contaminated water and soil.
In a healthy soil ecosystem, soil biota regulates the flow and storage of nutrients in many ways. For example, they decompose plant and animal residue, fix atmospheric nitrogen, transform nitrogen and other nutrients among various organic and inorganic forms, release plant available forms of nutrients, mobilize phosphorus, and form mycorrhizal (fungus -root) associations for nutrient exchange. Even applied fertilizers may pass through soil organisms before being utilized by crops. A relatively small number of soil organisms cause plant disease. A healthy soil ecosystem has a diverse soil food web that keeps pest organisms in check through competition and predation. Some soil organisms release compounds that enhance plant growth or reduce disease susceptibility. Plants may exude specific substances that attract beneficial organisms
or repel harmful ones, especially when they are under stress from activities such as grazing.

Microbial Activity

Worm Castings stimulate microbial activity. Although earthworms derive their nutrition from microorganisms, many more microorganisms (such as bacteria, fungi and actinomycetes) are present in their feces or casts than in the organic matter that they consume. As organic matter passes through their intestines, it is fragmented and inoculated with microorganisms. Increased microbial activity facilitates the cycling of nutrients from organic matter and their conversion into forms readily taken up by plants.
Compared to synthetic fertilize r formulations, Worm Castings contain relatively low
concentrations of actual nutrients, but they perform important functions, which the synthetic formulations do not. They increase the organic content and consequently the water-holding capacity of the soil. They improve the physical structure of the soil, which allows more air to get to plant roots. Where organic sources are used for fertilizer, bacterial and fungal activity increases in the soil. Mycorrhizal fungi, which make other nutrients more available to plants, thrive in soil where the organic matter content is high.

Water Availability
Worm Castings contain a high percentage of humus. Humus helps soil particles form into clusters, which create channels for the passage of air and improve its capacity to hold water. The castings are in the form of tiny pellets which are coated with a gel. This crumb-like structure helps improve drainage and aeration.

Balancing Soil Nutrient
The ability of the microbiologically active Worm Castings to regenerate the nutrients from the atmosphere, organic matter and water allows them to replace those lost from chemical fertilizers by leaching, plant uptake and chemical reactions. In relation to moisture holding capacity and improvement of soil structure, chemical fertilizers have negligible effect, as they primarily consist of water-soluble salts. On the other hand, the aggregate nature of the Worm Castings has appreciable water holding capacity, and its use leads to restored soil structure and increases nutrient reserves in soil. The presence of nitrogen fixing bacteria in Worm Castings means that nitrogen can be fixed
from the atmosphere and converted to plant soluble nitrates. Worm Castings are rich in humus, which contains essential plant nutrients and micronutrients. Moreover, these castings are also rich in vitamins, beneficial microorganisms, antibiotics and enzymes.
Worm Castings restore soil, will not wash out with watering, and will not burn even delicate plants. Worm castings have a very soil-like texture and all the necessary nutrients that plants, crops and all types of vegetation require. The castings slowly release nutrients when required by the plants. Castings are high in soluble nitrogen, potash, potassium, calcium, magnesium and many other trace elements. Worm Castings allow plants to quickly and easily absorb all essential nutrients and trace elements. Because the earthworm grinds and uniformly mixes the nutrients and trace elements into simple forms (1 to 2 microns), plants need only minimal effort to absorb these nutrients.
SUGGESTED APPLICATION RATES
Potted Plants, Seeds, Seed Flats · Use 1 part Worm Castings to 3 parts potting soil mix
Potted Plans, Window Boxes, Hanging Baskets (established)
· Add 1 to 2 inches of Worm Castings to top of soil
· Mix in, taking care not to damage shallow roots
· Water well
· Repeat every 2 to 3 months
Lawns
(established)
· Use Worm Castings as a top dress at 10 lbs. per 1000 sq. ft.
· Apply twice a year – in spring and once again in late fall
Lawns
(new)
· Apply 10 lbs. of Worm Castings to 1000 sq. ft.
· Work lightly into topsoil
· Mix in grass seed
· Cover with shredded straw and keep watered
Roses, Trees, Bushes, Berries
(new or freshly transplanted)
· Mix 1 part Worm Castings to 3 parts soil
· Surround newly dug hole with mixture
· In the hole, spread root over a mound of the mix, and cover
Bushes · Use 5 lbs. of Worm Castings per 10 Bushes
Perennials · Work ½ cup of Worm Castings into the soil above root zone,
taking care not to damage the shallow roots
· Apply in spring, early summer, and fall
Tables and Annual Flowers · Line bottom and sides of plant holes/seed furrows with
1 to 2 inches of Worm Castings
· Set plants/seeds in place and cover with soil
During the growing season, side dress once every 2 months at a
rate of ½ cup per plant or 1 cup per linear foot of row
Gardens · Apply 5 lbs. of Worm Castings per square foot
Note: The release time for nutrients is around 4 months for continual release of nutrients.
Repeat application is recommended at 4 month intervals.
Application rates may vary depending on soil test results.

Worm castings vs. Chemical fertilizers in Soil1
Criteria for Comparison Chemical Fertilizers Worm Castings
Macro Nutrient Contents
Mostly contains only one (N in urea) or at the most two (N & P in DAP)
nutrients in any one type of chemical fertilizer
Contains all nutrients in sufficient
quantities, i.e., nitrogen (N),
phosphorus (P) and potassium (K)
Secondary Nutrient Contents
Not Available
Calcium (Ca), manganese (Mn) and sulphur (S) are available in required quantities
Micro Nutrients Contents
Not Available
Zinc (Zn), boron (B), manganese, (Mn), iron (Fe), copper (Cu), molybdenum (Mo) and chorine (Cl)
are also present
pH balancing
Distorts soil pH, which creates saline and alkaline conditions
Helps control soil pH and corrects the salinity and alkalinity in soil
EC Correction
Creates imbalance in soil EC, affecting nutrients assimilation
Helps balance the EC to improve plant nutrient adsorption
Organic Carbon
Not Available
Very high organic carbon and humus contents improve soil characteristics
Moisture Retention Capacity
Reduces moisture retention capacity of the soil
Increases moistures retention capacity of the soil
Soil Texture
Damages soil texture to reduce aeration
Improves soil texture for better aeration
Beneficial Bacteria and Fungi
Reduces biological activities and thus the fertility is impaired
Very high biological life improves the soil fertility and productivity on sustainable basis
Plant Growth Hormones
Not Available
Sufficient quantity helps in better growth and production
1
 

SupraSPL

Well-Known Member
Nice mix you got there. That is the first time I have heard of insect frass and from a quick google search it looks very good. That is a lot more dolomite than I use but I don't think it will hurt anything.

I am swithching from Epsoma 5-3-3 to Organicare 6-5-5 and so far so good!

I am wary of Epsom salts because they are completely water soluble and really send your ppm sky high. In my water only mix I skip epsom and rely on the mag in the dolomite, well water and molasses. Lots of veggies in your EWC can contribute mag also.
 

NightbirdX

Well-Known Member
Thanks for the info guys. I always thought that ewc made the soil heavier, so I cut back and added some perliite. i'll have to start adding more. 6 gals ewc per 30 gal base? whats the lbs/cu.ft?

And supra, tell me more about the Botanicare. how much do you use, when do you apply, and how often? whAt all do you use with it?
 

lk2grow

Active Member
Here is what your Base mix percentages are. I assumed a small 5 gallon bag of compost

Gallons
Ocean Forest11.2232.11%
Happy Frog
11.22
32.11%
Pro-Mix411.45%
Perlite25.72%
EWC1.54.29%
Compost514.31%
34.94
 

Wetdog

Well-Known Member
I'll add all the amendments next time I mix, I'm pretty confident on how to add them in a cu ft mixture, but as for now with my plants in their containers, if I wanted to top dress the Blood Meal, Bone Meal, Kelp Meal, Alfalfa Meal, and Epsom salts, where should I begin? Would 1 tsp Epsom, and 2 TBS of everything else be a good place to start?
Yes ^^^^^^

Wet
 

Wetdog

Well-Known Member
Thanks for the info guys. I always thought that ewc made the soil heavier, so I cut back and added some perliite. i'll have to start adding more. 6 gals ewc per 30 gal base? whats the lbs/cu.ft?

And supra, tell me more about the Botanicare. how much do you use, when do you apply, and how often? whAt all do you use with it?
Have no idea of the lbs/CF of EWC. Would depend on the moisture content, but the 6 gals ewc/30gal base sounds good.

I do ~2cf of mix at the time, a wheelbarrow full and I'm not super precise on measurements, more of an eyeball thing.

But roughly, for 2cf of base:
1 1/2 buckets spag peat moss
1/2 bucket EWC
1 bucket perlite

Then all the other amendments. I DO NOT use Sub's recipe. Just not big on super hot SS type mixes. How hard is it to top dress every month or so?

Wet
 
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