Organic soil and PH. In terms of citric vs phosphoric acid?

GemuGrows · Jun 23, 2015

Hey everybody i'm sure this topic has been brought up a million times in this forum, but i've been doing copious amounts of research and I still can't find an answer i'm comfortable with.

I recently swapped to organics for a grow to see how it goes. So far my plants are healthy and happy as hell. Despite that I have been using:

General Hydroponics PH down, which is composed of:
Phosphoric acid 10 - 30%
Ammonium dihydrogenorthophosphate 5 - 10%
Citric acid 5 - 10%
(Source: http://generalhydroponics.com/site/gh/docs/prod_msds/pHDownLiquid_MSDS.pdf)

My main concerns are: I've read up and down that PH in organics doesnt "matter," but I havent ran across anything to 100% convince me of that. I water with well water with slight organic nutrient solutions and I don't trust that plain un PH'd well water is the best water I could give my plants. RO water isnt currently avalible to me and it cannot be, and i'm not going to go to the store for distilled every watering...I'm going to use my well water one way or another.

I want somebody to convince me that PHing my water solution for my organic garden does not matter; but if it does I want somebody to tell me whether Phosphoric acid or Citric acid primarily will harm my soil life, and why (or why not).

I've been searching up and down, typing every possible form of key words into search engines and i'm still not satisfied with any answers.

I am looking for a very intelligent discussion on this topic; I promise I am no noob even if this sounds like a noob question.

green_machine_two9er · Jun 23, 2015

Try it and you'll convince yourself. No need to ph as it should be "buffered" with soil ammenents. Oyster shell. Dolo lime ec. Dumping that ph up and down is 20x worse for you micro organism than non treated well water. Don't know how to convince you. Except that I was too a ph everything and adjust grower for many years. In true organic soil environments there is no need! And hurts more than helps. Someone else may have the science as to why it doesn't matter. I just know it doesn't. Organic growing is no growing as much as soil building as taking good care of your soil food web.

Also I should have asked first. So you mean organics as in a bottles orgsnic nutrient line? Or ammended living soil? It does make a difference.

DonPetro · Jun 24, 2015

I would test the water for total dissolved solids(tds) and if your ppms are below 100 you should be good to go without ph'ing. pH and organics doesnt really come into play unless your tds is way high ime.

green_machine_two9er · Jun 24, 2015

DonPetro said:
I would test the water for total dissolved solids(tds) and if your ppms are below 100 you should be good to go without ph'ing. pH and organics doesnt really come into play unless your tds is way high ime.

That makes since.one thing I noticed. Even if my water comes out at 7.5 150ppm. When making Ewc tea. It always adjust itself after brewing 48h. I don't even test anymore cause without any doubt would alway be perfect. Even if I add meals.

st0wandgrow · Jun 24, 2015

GemuGrows said:
Hey everybody i'm sure this topic has been brought up a million times in this forum, but i've been doing copious amounts of research and I still can't find an answer i'm comfortable with.

I recently swapped to organics for a grow to see how it goes. So far my plants are healthy and happy as hell. Despite that I have been using:

General Hydroponics PH down, which is composed of:
Phosphoric acid 10 - 30%
Ammonium dihydrogenorthophosphate 5 - 10%
Citric acid 5 - 10%
(Source: http://generalhydroponics.com/site/gh/docs/prod_msds/pHDownLiquid_MSDS.pdf)

My main concerns are: I've read up and down that PH in organics doesnt "matter," but I havent ran across anything to 100% convince me of that. I water with well water with slight organic nutrient solutions and I don't trust that plain un PH'd well water is the best water I could give my plants. RO water isnt currently avalible to me and it cannot be, and i'm not going to go to the store for distilled every watering...I'm going to use my well water one way or another.

I want somebody to convince me that PHing my water solution for my organic garden does not matter; but if it does I want somebody to tell me whether Phosphoric acid or Citric acid primarily will harm my soil life, and why (or why not).

I've been searching up and down, typing every possible form of key words into search engines and i'm still not satisfied with any answers.

I am looking for a very intelligent discussion on this topic; I promise I am no noob even if this sounds like a noob question.

PH absolutely *does* matter in organics. You're looking at this the wrong way though. The PH of your medium is what matters, not the PH of your water/tea. The microbes in your soil work best in a certain PH range, and the water that you are dumping on them will not alter the PH of the medium. Mineralization happens most efficiently in a soil with a PH around 6.0. If you're using peat it is quite acidic, so you will need a source of calcium carbonate to raise the PH of the soil. Adding some type of liming agent is great, but it takes time to break down and effect the soil. Having access to a soil testing facility would be ideal to button down exactly how much calcium carbonate needs to be added. Otherwise, you're left with trial and error using the eyeball test.

GemuGrows · Jun 25, 2015

st0wandgrow said:
PH absolutely *does* matter in organics. You're looking at this the wrong way though. The PH of your medium is what matters, not the PH of your water/tea. The microbes in your soil work best in a certain PH range, and the water that you are dumping on them will not alter the PH of the medium. Mineralization happens most efficiently in a soil with a PH around 6.0. If you're using peat it is quite acidic, so you will need a source of calcium carbonate to raise the PH of the soil. Adding some type of liming agent is great, but it takes time to break down and effect the soil. Having access to a soil testing facility would be ideal to button down exactly how much calcium carbonate needs to be added. Otherwise, you're left with trial and error using the eyeball test.

Good post buddy i appreciate your conecepts.

I guess its one of those things that I just gotta get used to.

I'm probably going to swap to hydroponic synthetic after a grow or two, but my ultimate goal is to grow with the most full of life soil that is "resonably possible." Worms and all; of course that is probably several years out (maybe not though depending on my ambition) but as far as the community goes, i'm quite young and I have a lot of time.

green_machine_two9er · Jun 26, 2015

GemuGrows said:
Good post buddy i appreciate your conecepts.

I guess its one of those things that I just gotta get used to.

I'm probably going to swap to hydroponic synthetic after a grow or two, but my ultimate goal is to grow with the most full of life soil that is "resonably possible." Worms and all; of course that is probably several years out (maybe not though depending on my ambition) but as far as the community goes, i'm quite young and I have a lot of time.

Noooo! Switch to hydro synthetic. ? Stick ms round organic forum enough and you won't ever want to switch to nasty chemicals.

GemuGrows · Jun 26, 2015

green_machine_two9er said:
Noooo! Switch to hydro synthetic. ? Stick ms round organic forum enough and you won't ever want to switch to nasty chemicals.

Mostly for yield reasons honestly... I don't smoke much myself anymore (3g a month at most, and i use a 1000w eye hortilux) but I love growing more than anything.
Unless you can convince me otherwise for a run or two XD

Organic soil and PH. In terms of citric vs phosphoric acid?

GemuGrows

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green_machine_two9er

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DonPetro

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green_machine_two9er

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st0wandgrow

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GemuGrows

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green_machine_two9er

Well-Known Member

GemuGrows

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