iHearAll
Well-Known Member
You mean the only logical method of agriculture? hohohohoho
Organic vs. hydro... another rant.
- Thread starter Johnny-mariseed
- Start date
southernguy99
Well-Known Member
yes without question , red and purple I heard of blue but question it , I don't believe this to be a question of hydro or soil , I think its more genetics but brought out by other factors like PH temp etc.
Heil Tweetler
Well-Known Member
2 things
1-the ham fisted carpenter analogy isnt analogous. It fell out of your ass.
2- A response of "i'd rather not" is not "practically the definition of ignorance".
On a site where folks are involved in advanced plant nutrition strategies, mineral balancing, building highly biologically active media etc, your knowing pronouncements about miracle gro are misplaced.
2.5- your bloated, know-it-all tone is cringe inducing.
DonTesla
Well-Known Member
I haven't seen blue yet either. i would love master or shall i say be a student to the hydro way as well, joking aside, so I could better my organics to the max.
You might be right about it being genetic though. Or perhaps further, the genetics were supposed to be "expressed/unlocked" this way, and it got expressed properly by the environment, in this case, the organic living soil, the bacteria fungi and biolife as well, perhaps the foliar regime and light spectrums helped- but what normally triggers these in non organic environments or any environments for that matter, since the two are related? In reading about anthocyanin (the pigmented antioxidant that makes the colour pop, also found in many vegetables) they're more commonly in the stalk cells of a trichome but this is in the gland cells..
I've seen the long skinny parts change colour, but never just the bulbs of the trichomes, or in this case, the "jewel cells" aka gland cells inside the tip of the trichome
Would love to hear anyone's experiences
@southernguy99
You might be right about it being genetic though. Or perhaps further, the genetics were supposed to be "expressed/unlocked" this way, and it got expressed properly by the environment, in this case, the organic living soil, the bacteria fungi and biolife as well, perhaps the foliar regime and light spectrums helped- but what normally triggers these in non organic environments or any environments for that matter, since the two are related? In reading about anthocyanin (the pigmented antioxidant that makes the colour pop, also found in many vegetables) they're more commonly in the stalk cells of a trichome but this is in the gland cells..
I've seen the long skinny parts change colour, but never just the bulbs of the trichomes, or in this case, the "jewel cells" aka gland cells inside the tip of the trichome
Would love to hear anyone's experiences
@southernguy99
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DonTesla
Well-Known Member
So the hypodermal cells I refered to as stalk cells, are capped by a basal cell that has stopped my anthocyanin in its tracks before.. I think vapour pressure, minerals, and light and genetics played a major role in maximizing. Whereas the jewel cells as i call them or gland cells I refer to the two groups known as secretory and stipe cells.. These I think are affected more by the air and moisture, ph as well to a degree but from what I'm reading Pink purple red blue just all represent different ph's.. But what causes that common expression to begin, predictably, and how can i capture it .. In the two areas it may be different things..
I have S1'd this pheno and reveged it but would be great to hear from anyone more experienced
Capt. Stickyfingers
Well-Known Member
I lol hard at these kinds of threads. I've been challenged by organic soil growers to their taste competition more than a few times, and the outcome has been the same every time. They get mad that mine tastes better, then proceed to blame my strains for why mine is better, then try to convince me to give them my strains (lol) so they can challenge me again later down the road. I've been at it since 1999 and in that period i've grown in live organic soil, i've grown in bubble buckets, pure perlite, and now coco. They've all been good and I've never noticed any drastic change in flavor when switching. I have noticed small changes in veg speed, amount of stretch in flower, and structure. My weed is good enough that people have traded me elites like 91 Chem skva (which came from an organic grower) for cuts of stuff I've found from seed because it tastes so good. That's my story, and I don't care if any of you fuckers believe me. Since I just posted this on RIU, I wouldn't believe me either because well, its RIU, 
southernguy99
Well-Known Member
Hey Don I think you hit the nail right on the head with what I was saying about genetics, the plant has to be capable of it whether its a blackberry , blueberry plant , vegetables etc. I'm sure you know more about this then I do as its not something I ever really perused, here are my thoughts organic living soil, the bacteria fungi and biolife as well, perhaps the foliar regime play a very small roll in this couple reasons , I think you can achieve red without any of this ( growing method) also most growers strive to achieve the optimal growing environment which is great but plants could do this long before people brought them inside , and plants growing in the wild are not in optimal environments, there in environments that we consider as stressed . anthocyanin change color with ph , I think red requires a lower ph , ultraviolet light plays a part in this perhaps overexposure, extreme heat or cold, A high mineral , sugar or protein etc I think some types of plants do this naturally like flower , trees, veg. and fruits. I think other plants may do this due to stress heat/cold,light ,ph etc..my thinking is you would have to start with a known control ( a plant that can do it ) and start stressing it to its original environment ie. high heat/cold maybe high elevation , high mineral etc .to find its trigger for this . and I expect different plants from different regions to have different triggers . hope that makes sense.I haven't seen blue yet either. i would love master or shall i say be a student to the hydro way as well, joking aside, so I could better my organics to the max.
You might be right about it being genetic though. Or perhaps further, the genetics were supposed to be "expressed/unlocked" this way, and it got expressed properly by the environment, in this case, the organic living soil, the bacteria fungi and biolife as well, perhaps the foliar regime and light spectrums helped- but what normally triggers these in non organic environments or any environments for that matter, since the two are related? In reading about anthocyanin (the pigmented antioxidant that makes the colour pop, also found in many vegetables) they're more commonly in the stalk cells of a trichome but this is in the gland cells..
I've seen the long skinny parts change colour, but never just the bulbs of the trichomes, or in this case, the "jewel cells" aka gland cells inside the tip of the trichome
Would love to hear anyone's experiences
SSGrower
Well-Known Member
I lean towards light being contributing to the coloration. Is it uv or color or combo tho? i had pink early on one but no clone and didnt see it others, one difference being there was some 4k and 5k Kelvin light. I also am noticing a purple in my fermenter (yeast, water sugar) under those lights but not in the one that is under a warmer light.
PH can affect (effect?) color in perennials i thought.
PH can affect (effect?) color in perennials i thought.
DonTesla
Well-Known Member
Thanks for the input @southernguy99 and @SSGrower
Luckily I took one clone, its small and flowering but at least I can test the temps and soil and see if triggers it, if it doesn't, I can try adding the foliar regime trick. Ill just take a macro shot every two days and keep it watched. I also have the re veg happening, so eventually we are gonna have a lot more clones. Then we also have a bit of seed, literally one so far, I took a Tight Dojo male and collected pollen, it was really stinky and hollow stemmed, squat, green, healthy, and had a leaf mutation (shooting out sets of 10, with a random single leaf going towards the petiole and main trunk. That was crossed with Tight Dojo special Pink Jewel pheno in a lower branch site to bring about this lone f2 .. I'm gonna pop that seed and veg for 100 days and I'm gonna try figure this out.. I'm even buying a professional camera, thats it, this is on! Appreciate any tips, guys, right on!
Luckily I took one clone, its small and flowering but at least I can test the temps and soil and see if triggers it, if it doesn't, I can try adding the foliar regime trick. Ill just take a macro shot every two days and keep it watched. I also have the re veg happening, so eventually we are gonna have a lot more clones. Then we also have a bit of seed, literally one so far, I took a Tight Dojo male and collected pollen, it was really stinky and hollow stemmed, squat, green, healthy, and had a leaf mutation (shooting out sets of 10, with a random single leaf going towards the petiole and main trunk. That was crossed with Tight Dojo special Pink Jewel pheno in a lower branch site to bring about this lone f2 .. I'm gonna pop that seed and veg for 100 days and I'm gonna try figure this out.. I'm even buying a professional camera, thats it, this is on! Appreciate any tips, guys, right on!
DonTesla
Well-Known Member
I've had non organic growers trade me their best for my bag seed too, lol.. Here's my SourDiesel Bagseed weed.. I'll load a pic in a sec, diff device. So any who, you guys or "fuckers" as you say, lol, compare same strains or different.. what's your advise on the wicked flavour, then, big man, is it the special slow cure or the special high brix feeding regime or special tasty genetics or both, or all 3, you think, or do you extrapolate the extra flavour with a different trick altogether. If we don't provide quality info then RIU will fall into shambles.. please advise the misguided masses!I lol hard at these kinds of threads. I've been challenged by organic soil growers to their taste competition more than a few times, and the outcome has been the same every time. They get mad that mine tastes better, then proceed to blame my strains for why mine is better, then try to convince me to give them my strains (lol) so they can challenge me again later down the road. I've been at it since 1999 and in that period i've grown in live organic soil, i've grown in bubble buckets, pure perlite, and now coco. They've all been good and I've never noticed any drastic change in flavor when switching. I have noticed small changes in veg speed, amount of stretch in flower, and structure. My weed is good enough that people have traded me elites like 91 Chem skva (which came from an organic grower) for cuts of stuff I've found from seed because it tastes so good. That's my story, and I don't care if any of you fuckers believe me. Since I just posted this on RIU, I wouldn't believe me either because well, its RIU,
greasemonkeymann
Well-Known Member
if you haven't ever noticed any drastic flavor changes when switching nutrients i'd say that your 18 yrs of growing is to be questioned.I lol hard at these kinds of threads. I've been challenged by organic soil growers to their taste competition more than a few times, and the outcome has been the same every time. They get mad that mine tastes better, then proceed to blame my strains for why mine is better, then try to convince me to give them my strains (lol) so they can challenge me again later down the road. I've been at it since 1999 and in that period i've grown in live organic soil, i've grown in bubble buckets, pure perlite, and now coco. They've all been good and I've never noticed any drastic change in flavor when switching. I have noticed small changes in veg speed, amount of stretch in flower, and structure. My weed is good enough that people have traded me elites like 91 Chem skva (which came from an organic grower) for cuts of stuff I've found from seed because it tastes so good. That's my story, and I don't care if any of you fuckers believe me. Since I just posted this on RIU, I wouldn't believe me either because well, its RIU,
it's safe to say that there are LOTS of flavor changes induced by different nutrients, absolutely without a doubt.
this"fucker" doesn't believe you.
even the most rudimentary inexperienced grower acknowledges that nutrients and technique vastly impact the flavor.
Chunky Stool
Well-Known Member
Quality is all about grower skill and genetics. Effective use of nutrients is a skill many growers have not mastered.
Hell I'm still learning...
greasemonkeymann
Well-Known Member
oh hell ya, and me too, even after this long, you still run into new stuff, and hone the existing knowledge you already have.Quality is all about grower skill and genetics. Effective use of nutrients is a skill many growers have not mastered.
Hell I'm still learning...
My point was more that many, many different things can dramatically effect the taste and smells of cannabis, organic or otherwise
neem meal in particular
guanos also, amongst many others
terpine development can vary fairly significantly
REALSTYLES
Well-Known Member
Organics is the way to grow better tasting buds and of course it also depends of plant genetics
Chunky Stool
Well-Known Member
Neem meal changes the taste and smell of cannabis? Hopefully in a good way because I was planning to use neem instead of feather meal as a source of N in my mixes.
Bat and seabird guano both kick ass -- and provide a healthy dose of calcium.
greasemonkeymann
Well-Known Member
ohhh yes it does, in fact you can bring out completely different tastes, the bluefrost that I have almost completely lost it's blueberry flavor when I used neem meal, made it a bit more skunky and sorta, hmm, like a weird creamy taste sorta?
hard to describe..
I can't say anything I've grown wasn't pleasant to smell though, I've heard of some getting like the "cheese" and 'feet" smelling strains but I haven't got any of those that i'd actually NOT want to stuff my nose in the jar to whiff..
but neem meal is probably the most flavor "changing/influencing" nutrient that I have used
there is SO much stuff in neem meal, when you look at all the different compounds in the neem seed itself it's impressive for sure
you'll notice a difference man, it's not subtle, some of my strains don't even smell the same
it seems to enhance specific terpines, the more pungent smells and sorta reduce the fruitier ones, if that makes sense
but neem meal is a must have in my opinion
now... if only it didn't stink like cheap beef-flavored top ramen...
I want to try karanja meal, just haven't found a source less than the bigass bags
i'm sure I could order some online though
anyways, you mentioned a replacement for the feather meal?
doghair or hoof and horn meal are great for that, I prefer to start those in the compost pile though, in a soil mix it takes a good probably two runs before its available? maybe less it's hard to say for sure. I use different sources of nitrogen to cover the slow, medium/faster release nutrients, so it's virtually impossible for me to tell when it does become available
paired along with fish and/or neem and crab meal and it'll cover the bases nicely
nitrogen is used so much I've found it's hard to overdue it (within reason of course) but in a soil conducive to growth a healthy cannabis plant will use quite a bit of it, almost all the problems that I've encountered with humus-heavy mixes have been more because of lack of aeration/too dense a mix rather than too much nutrients
that's another advantage of not using water-soluble nutrients
Chunky Stool
Well-Known Member
Thanks for the info!
I've got three big plants in 10 gallon cloth pots w/hot soil but nitrogen is either not releasing quickly enough or there isn't enough of it. Today I hit em with some Jacks citrus (EC 1.4) and hopefully they'll perk up. It pisses me off that I had to feed while the soil is still wet, but the N deficiency is starting to get out of hand. It also pisses me off that I have to use synthetic nutes w/organic soil that should be hot enough.
Oh well... plants definitely love the Jacks citrus. It is as good or better than DG Foliage pro -- which I also like, but it has less Mg.
greasemonkeymann
Well-Known Member
it may be controversial to some (albeit illogically) but my favorite thing to use for short term nitrogen issues is urine
not sure how or why organic growers are happy to use seabird or bat guano but sterile urine is somehow "gross"
but I like it for more than just that, sometimes certain situations can lead a grower to think the issue is a nitrogen def, and in reality it often isn't and if you used urine erroneously as an attempt to rectify that problem it's easily rinsed from the soil media.
whereas often growers will use topdresses of nitrogen inputs in an attempt to fix it and those aren't easy at all to remove from the soil if in fact the problem was NOT a nitrogen def too begin with
but sometimes magnesium issues can fool you, as well as poor drainage/wet media, those can yellow up a plant verrry similar to a nitrogen def
HydroLynx
Well-Known Member
DYK @Johnny-mariseed, that "OrganicTM" is unfortunately just a marketing tool, a mere marketing cliche used by industry to bait good people. Organics draws more from emotion than reason--logical fallacies everywhere. People have strong emotions and opinions towards organics, which really only is great for industry profits, but ultimately we need rationality and reason if we really want to work with nature.
Organics has weak scientific benefit compared to well maintained hydroponics. For instance, I have major drought issues, my city is running out of water, and soil gardens use much more water than hydroponics, thus soil really is not better for nature in this regard.
Nutrients and taste and smells: plants really don't give a shit if they get their iron from monsanto or maharajah-blessed moon-blood (plants are nihilists), genetics and energy intake naturally determines most of the taste and smell. Plants only need mineral nutrients to perform best, though chelates and other organic compounds and beneficial microorganisms can help. I have seen peer-reviewed publications dismissing organics and soil being better than hydroponics in terms of aesthetic qualities (taste, smell, colour etc) and ecology. And to think of it, it seems far-fetched that shit can improve the smell and taste of anything.
Practically: yes a lot can go wrong with hydro, and it is intimidating, but that's generally how plants are in the first place. Hydroponics is a science and an art.
So it's myopic to say an absolute hydroponic or organic paradigm is ultimately the best, though personally I lean towards the efficiency of hydroponics being better for cash cropping, mother nature, and modern urbanised society. Nature can benefit from chemicals and artificial things too, the world isn't so black and white.
Organics has weak scientific benefit compared to well maintained hydroponics. For instance, I have major drought issues, my city is running out of water, and soil gardens use much more water than hydroponics, thus soil really is not better for nature in this regard.
Nutrients and taste and smells: plants really don't give a shit if they get their iron from monsanto or maharajah-blessed moon-blood (plants are nihilists), genetics and energy intake naturally determines most of the taste and smell. Plants only need mineral nutrients to perform best, though chelates and other organic compounds and beneficial microorganisms can help. I have seen peer-reviewed publications dismissing organics and soil being better than hydroponics in terms of aesthetic qualities (taste, smell, colour etc) and ecology. And to think of it, it seems far-fetched that shit can improve the smell and taste of anything.
Practically: yes a lot can go wrong with hydro, and it is intimidating, but that's generally how plants are in the first place. Hydroponics is a science and an art.
So it's myopic to say an absolute hydroponic or organic paradigm is ultimately the best, though personally I lean towards the efficiency of hydroponics being better for cash cropping, mother nature, and modern urbanised society. Nature can benefit from chemicals and artificial things too, the world isn't so black and white.