Oxygenation

Royalroacho

Member
I'm having trouble keeping my res temps below 75-76. I have a pretty powerful air pump. at that temp, is it an issue of the water's O2 being at capacity, or would more aration help? I rigged a protein skimmer pump to top feed the pots, it produces tons of bubbles.
 

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J Henry

Active Member
Hey R-

A full blown “good” bacteria culture demands a lot of oxygen. A lot of air never insure a lot of oxygen. Air is mostly composed of nitrogen with a little oxygen and CO2 of course.

Ideally for optimal bacterial culture health and root ball health, sustained 100% DO saturation is excellent. Less than 100% DO is proportionally less healthy for your microbial and plant cultures.

On the other hand, fungi often fail to thrive in saturated oxygen environments. Fungi love and thrive in low oxygen (hypoxic) environments, dead and decaying organic matter is a fungi feast. And without enough oxygen many plants and animals (men, women, children, dogs, rats and bacteria) get sick, fail to thrive and often die (cell death).

Do you really have a low-oxygen problem or guessing?
Have you ever actually tested your water with a DO Meter to see if it’s great, good or really bad?
So what is the dissolved oxygen saturation of your warm aerated water?

Finding out what your DO Sat is a great diagnostic tool and an excellent place to begin, you may or you may not have a low-oxygen problem.

If you do have a low-oxygen problem and really want/need to correct it and make it right, that’s easy to do.

H2O2 has greatbactericidal, fungicidal and sporicidal properties, the more acetic the water the better the kill. But, why kill all the “good” microbes you have just purchased with H2O2?

JH
 

OldMedUser

Well-Known Member
If you got a good air pump and stones then you're getting all the O2 in there you can get from the atmosphere. I've been thinking about putting the air pump in a box and pumping in O2 from a welding tank to boost the amount of it getting into the water. Should be easy enough to calculate out a flow rate with the pump capacity to not overdo it.

Those temps are the main concern and if you can get them down then your O2 sat will go up too and you'll have much less threat of root rot. I made a DIY chiller out of a water cooler to be able to keep two 50L tubs between 65 - 68F and the plants loved it. Got the cooler for free and had lots of tubing so only had to cough up $14 for a small fountain pump.

Depending on the nutes you are using and whether you want to use beneficial bacteria sol'ns in your water or not then peroxide would be the way to keep the nasties at bay. Cheap and easy too. Buy the food grade 29 or 35% and add some to your nutes twice a week for maintenance. About 0.5ml/L, 2ml/USG always worked for me until I got the chiller. First 10 years I grew DWC I never even knew about the nute temp issue and survived by dumb luck I guess. :)

I've never used bennies and likely never will. AN nutes and a few supplements works just fine for me with the least amount of hassle. Just not having to worry about pH makes them worth the extra money and it's not that much extra unless you go buy all the bells and whistles.

Root_mass.jpg

:peace:
 

J Henry

Active Member
OldMed, now those are GREAT looking roots for sure. No doubt, you’re an expert grower and I’m sure your end product will be excellent. You have mastered the art and done it cost effectively too, no expensive frills, buzzers and alarms on your farm. Clearly your rez water quality is excellent.

When and if a farmers “grow plan” is working GREAT like OldMed’s plan, there is no reason to change the “grow plan.”

But, when a “grow plan “ is not working, not working good enough, plants dying, roots rotting, bacteria dying… there are options… change the “grow plan,” improve it or do nothing and keep repeating the failures.

A fungal infestation may not cause total crop failure, but treating an infestation is definitely disappointing, discouraging, time consuming and costly. A set-back for sure.

Most semi-pro farmers never have any problems and are successful all the time for years, they sell hundreds of lbs. of excellent buds and they are excellent farmers. Success is often measured in quality and volume of product (buds) and of course yearly profit.

Some experts and a few armature farmers claim that continuous safe oxygenation is very important. Key words are continuous safe oxygenation, 24/7. Fungi farmers would probably disagree here.

What is optimal, ideal dissolved oxygen saturation for 10 mature DWC plants and ½ gallon (4.0 lbs.) of good micro-organisms?
 

whitey78

Well-Known Member
Are u running that fountain pump 24/7? If so u might wanna start there installing a timer somehow to give it some off time... most hydro systems don't need to be ran/watering/feeding 100% of the time as that looks like a lot of pump for a 3 or 5 gallon bucket as well as a lot of pump for 2 plants, or am I misjudging those 2 holes in the bucket top being for your net pots? Also your gonna either wanna keep that bucket somewhere dark if that's not the bucket your growing in or light proof/replace it somehow cuz algae is gonna be a problem... as well as the clear hose being a no go in lit areas... any place light can get into your nutrient res; will at some point create an algae issue... which honestly in itself isn't that big of a problem to deal with but it will weaken your plants and open the door to other pathogens... it's best to nip that shit in the bud; and light proof anything, everything, and anywhere your nutrients could possibly be exposed to any light source... black buckets are shitty in the aspect of heat absorption but it's better to prevent light from getting in... the Depot sells black buckets for a $1 more than their orange ones now...

So exactly how many plants are you growing? You may not need all that air and all that much water pump for what your doing... I use a 70lpm air pump for 5 dwc buckets, a 20 gallon res with a 440gph water pump and a 50 gallon flood and drain res with the same size water pump... the last 2 using the least of the air due to the flooding and draining of the tables creating oxygen... but I still have room to add more air lines off of that pump if need be... so lay out your system so we can see if u really need all that pump...
 

J Henry

Active Member
whitey - Ideally, I like space for 9-10 mature RDWC plants, 60 gallons water/nutrient recirculating, room temp and water constant 80F – 86F (keep plant and microbial metabolism on the high side), DO Sat 100% continuously, water pump 30 minutes on/off per hour, 12 V DC battery and DC water pump… the solution contains approximately ½ gallon (4.0 lbs.) of healthy, thriving micro-organisms?

I know that a 40 YO study says the celery plants do fine with 2 PPM DO which is often superimpose on RDWC pot plants somehow. I don't really buy that assumption at all.

I find that high oxygen is most import for collective plant and microbial aerobic respiration and preventing fungal infestation (I am pro fungal prevention vs. crisis intervention with fungal treatments post infection), 18F air and water temp insures and maintain higher metabolism for plants and good microorganism than 68F air and water temperatures, always satisfying oxygen demand with continuous oxygen supply and availability are critical factors that greatly influence plant and microbial health and mortality. Don’t forget that air is mostly nitrogen, not oxygen.

DO air charts are common, but I never try to insure minimal safe oxygenation with these charts and chillers… I insure oxygenation with an oxygen generator and test effluent DO Saturation often, always maintain 100% DO saturation (optimal oxygenation) 24/7 throughout the growing and budding period. No air pumps and bubble rocks, no mechanical aeration, no fountains and no water chilling. Maintain room air temp continuously @ 80 F with good ventilation flow and cyclic lighting…. And absolutely NO H2O2 that always kills the good microorganisms that I bought.

Plants and microbes do not need nor use nitrogen in respiration. When oxygen supply is short the fungi present and then thrive, fungi are opportunist and attack dead and dying plant material and microbes sick from insufficient low oxygen environments. Fungi are ubiquitous, they are opportunist like vultures that clean up/eat the dead. They will eat you too someday when you’re dead, cold, in the box, underground in the dark. The have an important place in the natures’ life cycles. They dispose of the mess after death.

No fountain pump. I’m not really concerned with the volume of air pumps deliver, but I am most concerned about insuring and maintaining the dissolved oxygen saturation continuously within a safe range for the combined plant and microbial eco-systems. Air and oxygen are different gases.

Want to learn something shocking? Contact any microbiologist (not the salesman) that works for any company that produces and sells beneficial microbes for pot plants. Ask that staff microbiologist, “what is the optimal dissolved oxygen saturation needed to maintain 1 gallon (8 lbs.) of their top-of-the-line microbes in 80F water in a thriving RDWC grow continuously for 4 months? I think the answer will be 100% DO Saturation continuous.

Most people have total faith in a DO Chart, “The DO chart says da-da-da…” Most growers have never actually tested the DO Sat, have no DO Meter and have no idea what their DO sat really is in their grow. All their oxygenation hopes and expectation are based only on that little DO chart, air and water temperature. Many assuming that as long as the water temp is in the 60’s F the oxygenation will be safe using air.

But, what if the fungus presents proving their dissolved oxygen is way too low and crisis alarm goes off… yikes, big problems, high stress, might lose the whole crop now! There’s a fungal infection in the root ball, a serious setback that requires crisis intervention and chemical treatments. Prevention in no longer an option now and intervention is activated because of a full blown fungal outbreak. It’s simply way too late for prevention then.

Most growers never have fungal outbreaks, but some do have this problem and all growers worry for months about possibly having fungal outbreaks.

Real time DO is demonstrated with a DO Meter and serial testing throughout the growing period, but you must have a DO Meter or another accurate chemical testing device. A DO chart does not measure real time DO and never will… the DO meter tells the tale accurately.

Plants and microbes always grow best when their metabolism is high and continuous high metabolism always requires a lot of oxygen… a lot of air is not the same as lot of oxygen, contrary to popular belief.

You all have a Rocky Mountain High Christmas sitting by a warm fire with a big J burning and homemade eggnog.
 

OldMedUser

Well-Known Member
Are u running that fountain pump 24/7? If so u might wanna start there installing a timer somehow to give it some off time... most hydro systems don't need to be ran/watering/feeding 100% of the time as that looks like a lot of pump for a 3 or 5 gallon bucket as well as a lot of pump for 2 plants, or am I misjudging those 2 holes in the bucket top being for your net pots? Also your gonna either wanna keep that bucket somewhere dark if that's not the bucket your growing in or light proof/replace it somehow cuz algae is gonna be a problem... as well as the clear hose being a no go in lit areas... any place light can get into your nutrient res; will at some point create an algae issue... which honestly in itself isn't that big of a problem to deal with but it will weaken your plants and open the door to other pathogens... it's best to nip that shit in the bud; and light proof anything, everything, and anywhere your nutrients could possibly be exposed to any light source... black buckets are shitty in the aspect of heat absorption but it's better to prevent light from getting in... the Depot sells black buckets for a $1 more than their orange ones now...

So exactly how many plants are you growing? You may not need all that air and all that much water pump for what your doing... I use a 70lpm air pump for 5 dwc buckets, a 20 gallon res with a 440gph water pump and a 50 gallon flood and drain res with the same size water pump... the last 2 using the least of the air due to the flooding and draining of the tables creating oxygen... but I still have room to add more air lines off of that pump if need be... so lay out your system so we can see if u really need all that pump...
Was this post directed at me? I'd like to know before I get into a detailed reply but the fountain pump I refer to just circulates my nutes thru the chiller continuously. I have a timer on the cooler to keep the temps in the tub where I want them or they'd get below 60F. Tried the timer on the nute pump but the line froze up in the cooler tank when it was off. I use a dual outlet air pump and 2 - 12" air stones in each tub for oxygenation.

:peace:
 

J Henry

Active Member
Old Med - I'm sure you have tested you DO Saturation... what is yor actual DO Saturation using bubblers and what is your actual water temp when the DO is tested? Just wondering.
 

OldMedUser

Well-Known Member
I have never tested for DO. Don't have the equipment for that. I keep the nute temps down around 65F and with two 12" stones running at 2.5psi there should be the maximum amount of O2 that it can hold. The plants always seem happy and I've had up to 20 plants at once in one tub. Years ago I only ran one stone on a single outlet pump without nute chilling and the plants were happy with that.

The only times I've ever had root rot was when I used real dirt to root clones that went into a tub for DWC so I make a point of using the old ProMix that doesn't have Myco to root cuttings that are destined for hydro. Tried rockwool but had poor rooting with it so use the ProMix after screening it thru 1mm mesh to filter out any lumps.

:peace:
 

J Henry

Active Member
No root rot = no fungal outbreak problems and your pic of your roots tells the tale. There are many, many growers that can only wish they could prevent root rot as well as you have all your life, but many just can't keep the "rot" away for some reason. They just can't do it and that's sad and very disappointing as usual. But that's reality. Most growers can only hope they don't catch it, think about it often and prepare for the root rot treatment when they do catch it.

You do a really great job with your crop.

If you ever want to check your DO, here's a cheap, quick DO Test:

Salifert Dissolved oxygen test strips - $19.99. 40 DO Test (range 2 ppm – 14 pm), at $0.50 per test… they’re cheap, efficient and accurate enough for farm work. http://www.marinedepot.com/Salifert_Dissolved_Oxygen_Test_Kit_Specialty_Test_Kits_for_Saltwater_Aquariums-Salifert-SF1131-FITKSI-vi.html?utm_source=mdcsegooglebase2&utm_medium=cse&utm_campaign=mdcsegooglebase2&utm_content=SF1131&gclid=CL6J-omwntECFdgIgQod6oYBeA

I don’t think many growers ever test their culture water DO.
You have a great productive New Year Old Med in 2017.
 
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