PeKacid is NOT a Drip Clean alternative

Just wanted to clear up some confusion about Drip clean and the "DIY Drip Clean". These products are not the same. PeKacid is a commercial PK fertilizer that is supposed to be used as an alternative PK nutrient source when farmers have alkaline source water or soil. It is used to replace the need for Phosphoric or Sulfuric acid additions in order to lower the PH, as the fertilizer itself is acidic. The lower PH of the water is what dissolves nutrient precipitates (mainly Ca reacting with Sulfates and Phosphates), which makes it sound like its doing the same thing that House and Garden Drip Clean is.

Many people have posted that adding 400g Pekacid and distilled water in a 1L bottle will get you the same thing as Drip Clean. This is bad advice, as you will be adding a lot of P and K to your nutrient reservoir if you do this and screw up your nutrient ratios.

People add 1ml per gal Drip clean with great results. That means a 1L bottle at 1ml/gal will make 1000 gals. 400g PeKacid in a 1L bottle at the same 1ml/gal ratio equates to .4g PeKacid per gal (.4 x 1000 = 400). If you go on Hydrobuddy and add PeKacid to the substance selection section using its 0-60-20 N-P205-K20 ratio and then add .4g in 1 gal water you get 27.67ppm P and 17.54ppm K. Thats a lot of P, over half of what I normally use. I added 8ml of genuine Drip Clean to 1 gal RO water and it didn't even register on my EC meter. 8ml of the DIY PeKacid drip clean registered 0.7 EC.

The confusion comes from an old European MSDS of House and Garden Drip Clean that claims 24% P205 and 8% K20 with a density of 1.3g/ml. Below is a link to it.

https://secure.megawatthydro.com/img/product/.../MSDS-DripClean.pdf

The actual bottle of Drip Clean I bought off the store shelf has a much different Guaranteed Analysis (You can also find it on the Washington State Fertilizer Database). It states an N-P205-K20 ratio of 0-0.18-0.6 and a density of 1.1g/ml. Adding 1ml per gal Drip clean raises your P by 0.2ppm and K by 1.3ppm. Drip Clean is not supposed to be a PK booster. It contains Phosphoric acid and Potassium Oxide in small amounts, hence the reason it doesn't change the PH or EC of your nutrient reservoir. Its is a polyphosphate solution and is different then orthophosphate acid found in PeKacid.

If you read the info carefully at the link below on PeKacid, you will understand it is only beneficial if you have highly alkaline irrigation water or soil.

http://www.iclfertilizers.com/Fertilizers/Knowledge Center/Pekacid_-_water_and_irrigation.pdf

Most of us, especially the hydro growers don't have that problem as our water is filtered and our growing medium is buffered. If you grow in calcareous soil and have high bicarbonate in your water, then maybe using a little PeKacid would be beneficial, but probably not the 400g/L concentrate. If you used 0.014g per gal, it would equal the same 1.5ppm nutrient addition as adding 1ml/gal Drip Clean (although a higher amount of P then K).

Anyways, sorry for the ramble, but I just wanted to save someone the time, money, and hassle of buying PeKacid as a substitute for H&G Drip Clean. I'm not sure if Drip Clean actually works, I have used it @.4ml/gal and not noticed a difference in plant growth. Never had a clogged dripper in my DTW set up with or without Drip Clean. But if you use it, and are happy with it, then just keep buying it, as there doesn't seem to be a similar product on the market for any cheaper. $.02-.05 per gal for piece of mind isn't too bad.

Peace

Thanks for explanation. Very clarifying.

Can you tell me where you learned that this product is derived from polyphosphates as opposed to being a solution derived from MKP and phos acid?

Neither the MSDS, the product label, or H&G website say anything about polyphosphates.

Sorry, but I'm calling bullshit here. And not just on your claims, but on the claims of this product as well.

A high phosphate fertilizer, like PeKacid, is more likely to bond to calcium and magnesium and precipitate out calcium phosphate and magnesium phosphate. Calcium and magnesium are the two elements that make a water source alkaline. So, yeah, it would help you, just as you said yourself, in cases where water is hard or alkaline. H&G website says it's especially beneficial for use with tap water, which generally means they are trying to sell on the premise that tap water is alkaline. There are no other reasons to talk about tap water in the context of hydroponics, other than the calcium and magnesium content.

However, to precipitate out monocalcium phosphate, you need to have over 3000 ppm Ca in the water with twice as much phosphate present to do anything. Magnesium phosphate requires far less, however, you'll see problems related to nutrient toxicities related to magnesium or phosphorus before it truly becomes a problem. Adding a solution of phosphate and potassium to your nutrient solution is not going to keep your lines clean. If you really need to clean your drip lines, you need to do it at a time when plants aren't in the room or something like that and use a higher concentration of just phos acid.

Ingredients: Potassium pentahydrogen
bis(phosphate), PeKacid
http://cms.icl-sf.com/uploads/UK/MSDS/Select/2856 SELECT_PEKACID_0-59-20_MTR_EGHS_EN.pdf

I wanted to bump this thread.. Curious about alkaline tap water w bicarbonates and pekacid came up.

You are absolutely right, it's an ortho not a polyphosphate.
Boys, thanks for the info. I just want to point out that the actual molecules used in drip clean are listed in this safety sheet

Won't let me post link. Google it's safety sheet.


It says

Phosphoric Acid* (CAS Number: 7664-38-2)

This type of phosphoric acid is an ORTHO as well as seen here:

it won't let me post link. but Google it.

And also contains

Potassium Oxide* (CAS Number: 12136-45-7)



Aka potassium monoxide, which turns into KOH in water

jsquared89 said:

Can you tell me where you learned that this product is derived from polyphosphates as opposed to being a solution derived from MKP and phos acid?

Neither the MSDS, the product label, or H&G website say anything about polyphosphates.

Sorry, but I'm calling bullshit here. And not just on your claims, but on the claims of this product as well.

A high phosphate fertilizer, like PeKacid, is more likely to bond to calcium and magnesium and precipitate out calcium phosphate and magnesium phosphate. Calcium and magnesium are the two elements that make a water source alkaline. So, yeah, it would help you, just as you said yourself, in cases where water is hard or alkaline. H&G website says it's especially beneficial for use with tap water, which generally means they are trying to sell on the premise that tap water is alkaline. There are no other reasons to talk about tap water in the context of hydroponics, other than the calcium and magnesium content.

However, to precipitate out monocalcium phosphate, you need to have over 3000 ppm Ca in the water with twice as much phosphate present to do anything. Magnesium phosphate requires far less, however, you'll see problems related to nutrient toxicities related to magnesium or phosphorus before it truly becomes a problem. Adding a solution of phosphate and potassium to your nutrient solution is not going to keep your lines clean. If you really need to clean your drip lines, you need to do it at a time when plants aren't in the room or something like that and use a higher concentration of just phos acid.

Click to expand...

e

Wrong

Drip Clean
Derived from phosphoric acid, potassium oxide.


Pekacid
Guaranteed analysis 59% PHOSPHORUS PENTOXIDE (P2O5) water soluble 25,7% Phosphorus 20% POTASSIUM OXIDE (K2O) water soluble

Phosphorus pentoxide is a chemical compound with molecular formula P4O10 (with its common name derived from its empirical formula, P2O5). This white crystalline solid is the anhydride of phosphoric acid.

P2O5 is the anhydride of phosphoric acid (H3PO4). When phosphorus pentoxide (P2O5) is dissolved in water, phosphoric acid (H3PO4) is formed.


Looks like it's pretty close to the same thing. Pekacid is just in crystalline form and not liquid.

Pekacid $13 a pound. Can make gallons and gallons of Drip Clean.
Drip Clean $41 a liter

Drip Clean is just another overpriced product from a nutrient company specifically targeting cannabis growers.

xtsho said:

Wrong

Drip Clean
Derived from phosphoric acid, potassium oxide.


Pekacid
Guaranteed analysis 59% PHOSPHORUS PENTOXIDE (P2O5) water soluble 25,7% Phosphorus 20% POTASSIUM OXIDE (K2O) water soluble

Phosphorus pentoxide is a chemical compound with molecular formula P4O10 (with its common name derived from its empirical formula, P2O5). This white crystalline solid is the anhydride of phosphoric acid.

P2O5 is the anhydride of phosphoric acid (H3PO4). When phosphorus pentoxide (P2O5) is dissolved in water, phosphoric acid (H3PO4) is formed.


Looks like it's pretty close to the same thing. Pekacid is just in crystalline form and not liquid.

Pekacid $13 a pound. Can make gallons and gallons of Drip Clean.
Drip Clean $41 a liter

Drip Clean is just another overpriced product from a nutrient company specifically targeting cannabis growers.

Click to expand...

Have you personally ran this in your setup?

Putting together a Blumat system and figuring out how to keep the res clean and the drippers clog-free, as I won't be around all the time.

Found the recipe for the homemade Clear Rez and was thinking about using it with the homemade Drip Clean recipe or just buy some. Still not sure though, this is a whole can of worms I never anticipated opening, just trying to save a few bucks.

You're forgetting something besides the pekacid.... The potassium oxide. You need to purchase that separately. It's pretty cheap for a 50lb bag

Midnight Warrior said:

Have you personally ran this in your setup?

Putting together a Blumat system and figuring out how to keep the res clean and the drippers clog-free, as I won't be around all the time.

Found the recipe for the homemade Clear Rez and was thinking about using it with the homemade Drip Clean recipe or just buy some. Still not sure though, this is a whole can of worms I never anticipated opening, just trying to save a few bucks.

Click to expand...

I have ran it but no longer use it and I don't get any buildup in the lines and my reservoir stays clean. Much of it has to do with the nutrients you are using. I use VitaGrow which is a very clean running nutrient because it's three parts are just calcium nitrate, monopotassium phosphate, and a micronutrient blend. It stays clear and has nothing in it that creates any sludge or anything that might clog the lines. Now I just mix my nutrients and fill the reservoir. I've had five or six grows without using any drip clean, pekacid, etc... I haven't done anything to clean the lines and they are still clean. So it all goes back to what you are using for nutrients. And as far as that goes the inexpensive nutrients I use work great. No deficiencies ever all the way through veg and flower. I even grow in coco and never use CalMag despite so many people saying you need it when growing in coco. Maybe you need drip clean and CalMag with some of those expensive cannabis specific nutes but I don't. All I need is VitaGrow, coco, and light to grow cannabis.

The plan is to switch over to Mega Crop this next grow and by all preliminary research shows that it should run fine in a drip system. Think I will just run straight nutes with RO water and just a regular flush of the system and cleaning of the res. Thanks for the reply.

xtsho said:

Wrong

Drip Clean
Derived from phosphoric acid, potassium oxide.


Pekacid
Guaranteed analysis 59% PHOSPHORUS PENTOXIDE (P2O5) water soluble 25,7% Phosphorus 20% POTASSIUM OXIDE (K2O) water soluble

Phosphorus pentoxide is a chemical compound with molecular formula P4O10 (with its common name derived from its empirical formula, P2O5). This white crystalline solid is the anhydride of phosphoric acid.

P2O5 is the anhydride of phosphoric acid (H3PO4). When phosphorus pentoxide (P2O5) is dissolved in water, phosphoric acid (H3PO4) is formed.


Looks like it's pretty close to the same thing. Pekacid is just in crystalline form and not liquid.

Pekacid $13 a pound. Can make gallons and gallons of Drip Clean.
Drip Clean $41 a liter

Drip Clean is just another overpriced product from a nutrient company specifically targeting cannabis growers.

Click to expand...

xtsho said:

I have ran it but no longer use it and I don't get any buildup in the lines and my reservoir stays clean. Much of it has to do with the nutrients you are using. I use VitaGrow which is a very clean running nutrient because it's three parts are just calcium nitrate, monopotassium phosphate, and a micronutrient blend. It stays clear and has nothing in it that creates any sludge or anything that might clog the lines. Now I just mix my nutrients and fill the reservoir. I've had five or six grows without using any drip clean, pekacid, etc... I haven't done anything to clean the lines and they are still clean. So it all goes back to what you are using for nutrients. And as far as that goes the inexpensive nutrients I use work great. No deficiencies ever all the way through veg and flower. I even grow in coco and never use CalMag despite so many people saying you need it when growing in coco. Maybe you need drip clean and CalMag with some of those expensive cannabis specific nutes but I don't. All I need is VitaGrow, coco, and light to grow cannabis.

Click to expand...

Hey. Are you sure about this?
I'm seeing lots(!) of crusty salt buildup on the drain holes of solos and 1 gals at the moment. It works its way around the entire drain holes. I've been looking into best ways to clean it off (without much physical effort) and found some solutions. Have a couple testing now.
But planning to do a proper drip setup now and would like to figure out if I can stop it from occurring or at least limit how much of it there is.
Using jacks 5-12-26 at the moment.

It's been years but from memory I used it briefly. I still have a pound of it.

I think I had some nutrient issues when I Used it that I hadn't had before so stopped. I ran Blumats for years without PecAcid or any other product without issues using chemical nutrients. I never had a problem with buildup with the 3 mm lines. I do get deposits on the drain holes and sometimes the exterior of fabric pots but it's nothing I worry too much about if the plants are healthy.