PH vs Alkalinity in soil/soiless

workinit

Well-Known Member
After having a spirited debate with another member here I did a bit of research on the effects of PH'ing your water and nutrient solution. It seems that alkalinity, or the amount of carbonates and bicarbonates of your water, is more important than the actual PH of the water. I found that if your waters total alkalinity is below 100ppm that one should not PH if growing in a buffered soil/soiless medium. My own experience not PH'ing using water that has an alkalinity less than 75ppm has gone perfectly with no signs of PH issues. Anyone more schooled in the why's and how's is welcomed to chime in.

From one article:

Water Quality: pH and Alkalinity
Recently, some growers have expressed concern about the "high pH" of their irrigation water and its potential adverse effects on plants. The purpose of this article is to allay some of these concerns by pointing out the difference between "high pH" and "high alkalinity".

Alkalinity and pH are two important factors in determining the suitability of water for irrigating plants. pH is a measure of the concentration of hydrogen ions (H+) in water or other liquids. In general, water for irrigation should have a pH b etween 5.0 and 7.0. Water with pH below 7.0 is termed "acidic" and water with pH above 7.0 is termed "basic"; pH 7.0 is "neutral". Sometimes the term "alkaline" is used instead of "basic" and often "alkaline" is confused with "alkalinity". Alkalinity is a measure of the water's ability to neutralize acidity. An alkalinity test measures the level of bicarbonates, carbonates, and hydroxides in water and test results are generally expressed as "ppm of calcium carbonate (CaCO3)". The desirable range f or irrigation water is 0 to 100 ppm calcium carbonate. Levels between 30 and 60 ppm are considered optimum for most plants.

Irrigation water tests should always include both pH and alkalinity tests. A pH test by itself is not an indication of alkalinity. Water with high alkalinity (i.e., high levels of bicarbonates or carbonates) always has a pH value ÷7 or above, but water with high pH doesn't always have high alkalinity. This is important because high alkalinity exerts the most significant effects on growing medium fertility and plant nutrition.

Acidification of High Alkalinity Water
Many greenhouse operators inject acid (e.g., phosphoric, nitric, or sulfuric acid) into water with problematic high levels of alkalinity. Acidification of water having high pH but low alkalinity is rarely necessary. The use of acid injection sh ould be considered very carefully for several reasons. First, it is an extra step in production which will require additional materials and equipment. Second, acids are dangerous to handle and may damage some injectors and piping systems. Third, phosphoric or nitric acid are sources of P and NO3, so the regular fertilizer program may need to be modified to take into account the addition of these nutrients. This would depend on how much acid must be used to neutralize the alkalinity and reduce pH. Fourth, sometimes acid injection causes the solubilization of normally precipitated (unavailable) forms of trace elements resulting in levels toxic to plants.

The amount of acid required to reach the desired pH (i.e., neutralize alkalinity) is determined by laboratory titration of a water sample with the appropriate acid or by a calculation procedure. Some "fine-tuning" may be needed later when actual inject ion is started. Acid is always injected prior to the addition of fertilizer or other chemicals.

Prepared by Douglas Cox
Plant and Soil Sciences
University of Massachusetts
Amherst
August 1995.
 
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az2000

Well-Known Member
From what I've gathered, whether to ph liquids poured into the soil is a matter of whether the liquid has a strong buffering content, either from carbonates in the water (alkalinity) or ingredients added via fertilizers and supplements. Soil has a strong tendency to resist ph changes, especially of carbonates such as dolomite is added.

I'm reluctant to encourage growers not to ph their nutrient solution because there is a tendency to overfeed (followed by flushes). Strong ppm nutrient solutions require a large amount of ph up/down to move the ph. IMO, such a strong enough to pull the soil ph. Especially if the water is alkaline (high amount of carbonates).

I use RO water, (just enough nutes to satisfy my plants (weak resistance to ph up/down) and 1-1/2 to 2 tbsp/gal dolomite. I could probably feed without ph'ing the solution. But, I ph it just to be safe. Being a relatively weak solution it doesn't require much ph up/down, so I don't spend a lot on ph up/down.

OTOH: I'm not precise about it either. If my nutrient solution is 5.8, I'll increase it to +/- 0.3 of the recommended 6.5 for soil. In veg I'll target the low side more. In flower the high side more.
 

vitamin_green_inc

Well-Known Member
I have the high alkalinity 450 ppm, high pH ~7 out of the tap...after I leave it for 24 hours it goes to like 8 pH....this means that I need to use more pH down, roughly 8 drops, but since I am in soilless I am able to use less Nutes...

I also think that as growers, mist of us have a container mindset. I can water plants outside in the ground with the tap water and plants do just fine, but indoors in containers its a little hot for young plants...
 

DemonTrich

Well-Known Member
103ppm and 8.1 out the tap here. 1ml +5 drops (in a 3ml pipette) of ph down per gallon of water makes it a perfect 6.5ph. 3 solid years of this, I don't ph my tap any longer. nothing ever changes. I do bubble my h2o 24/7. water temp is 72* +/-
 

workinit

Well-Known Member
If I understand correctly, so long as your alkalinity is below 100 there is no real need to PH ones water or solution in a buffered medium. I started thinking after my dumb ass realized I was poisoning my soil with phosphorus by PH'ing everything. It's my understanding that phosphorus doesn't leach from the soil like N and K. If this is true ALL the P based acids you're using remain in your medium until it is consumed. Just seems as though it could cause a plethora of issues. Trying to keep it simple.
 

az2000

Well-Known Member
How much ph-up/down do you use for a gallon of nutrient solution? I find if I'm not overfeeding (lower ppms from the nutrients), it requires very little to adjust from ph 6.0 to 6.5. Less than 2ml.

If you use powdered dolomite in the soil that should stop any drift caused by the un-ph'ed nutrient solution over time. Someday I intend to try no ph. But, I use so little now, it seems like small insurance to get it closer to 6.5.
 

workinit

Well-Known Member
It takes about 60ppm of PH down to put me at 6.5 with tapwater, much more when using nutrients. Considering that 10ml per gallon of Blue Planet nutrients(2 part) only adds 38ppm I would say it definately effects the big picture over time. Botanicare actually shows the NPK of their PH down. 0 15 0. That's A LOT of P! I guess one could limit the effect by using a very high NK nutrient. Back in the day when I ran hydro I used something called AB Nutrients. It was a two part which has next to no P in either the veg or bloom formulas, I believe total P was .1. I suppose I was getting P from the PH down and those were by the best grows I have ever done. Lush green from start to finish.
 
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az2000

Well-Known Member
That's A LOT of P! I guess one could limit the effect by using a very high NK nutrient. Back in the day when I ran hydro I used something called AB Nutrients. It was a two part which has next to no P in either the veg or bloom formulas, I believe total P was .1. I suppose I was getting P from the PH down and those were by the best grows I have ever done. Lush green from start to finish.
You might be interested in this spreadsheet I made (<link). I created it to see the effect of mixing 4-5 products. For example, I use RO water and wanted to see how CalMag's N content affected the NPK ratio. Also wanted to be able to predict PPMs, a starting point when using something new.

I've never considered the nutrient contribution of ph-up/down. I use so little of it now that it probably doesn't matter. But, if you use more it might guide you in mixing things differently to get the desired NPK ratio. (You can also unravel the PK ratio from the previous A-B product you used. Then target that ratio.).
 

workinit

Well-Known Member
You might be interested in this spreadsheet I made (<link). I created it to see the effect of mixing 4-5 products. For example, I use RO water and wanted to see how CalMag's N content affected the NPK ratio. Also wanted to be able to predict PPMs, a starting point when using something new.

I've never considered the nutrient contribution of ph-up/down. I use so little of it now that it probably doesn't matter. But, if you use more it might guide you in mixing things differently to get the desired NPK ratio. (You can also unravel the PK ratio from the previous A-B product you used. Then target that ratio.).
link not working
 

workinit

Well-Known Member
I really think that people screw a lot of grows up by not taking into account the NPK value of their PH adjustments. I can only imagine how much PH down it would take to move a nutrient solution mixed at say 1200pm one point on the PH meter. At least 5ml per gallon, maybe more. Thats gonna be at least 100ppm of pure Phosphorus. Then take into account all the folks blowing up their girls with heavy P flowering fertilizers. I think if one used the correct ratios of NK using the PH down as your sole source of P you could get the benefits of PH'ing your solution/water without the P overload.

Regarding alkalinity, mine runs between 60 and 70. The optimum is normally between 30 and 60. I think I'm gonna cut my water with 1/3 RO(37 cents a gallon at wallyworld) to move that number to the mid 40's. Like you, I never considered the NPK value of PH acids added to my water until just recently. I really believe alkalinity and the downside of using acids to control PH are two factors that more people should take into consideration.

Keep in mind most of what I'm talking about applies to a buffered medium not hydro. It is possible that many hydro growers do not take into accout the added PPM's, and effect on NPK ratios of the acids used to control PH.
 

az2000

Well-Known Member
I can only imagine how much PH down it would take to move a nutrient solution mixed at say 1200pm one point on the PH meter.
Doesn't it typically go the other way? When I was feeding around 1100ppm I had to use huge amounts of ph up. 15-20ml. But, that was potassium, not phosphorus. (I was overfeeding. Now that I feed a more appropriate 500ppm for the fertilizer I use, it's just 1-2ml. But, you have a good point. I never thought about how my overfeeding was amplified by giving additional K to reduce the ph of the strong nutrient solution. A vicious circle.).

I only use ph down is in veg when the nutes are week (first 1-2 weeks) and/or I use a silica product which acts like ph up.

For me, additional K isn't a problem because I use two fertilizer products with 1-1-1 and 1-6.5-6.5 NPK ratios. I always want to get the K higher. For example, 3-1-2 in veg and 1-3-2 in flower (or PK 1-2, which is reported to be AN's ratio.). It seems like all recommended ratios have higher K (except for the guys who advocate 1-1-1 throughout the grow.).

But, I agree. If someone uses a fertilizer product that's already high in K, they might be getting more K than they expect.

FWIW: I really like the spreadsheet linked above. I used to add things because that's what everyone does. "Just gimme a schedule to follow!" I had no idea what NPK ratio I was using, especially when using GH Flora 3-part. Dissecting the mix was informative. Now I do things like use a normal Calmag product (with N) in veg, and GO CaMg+ in flower (because it has no N). I get my flower NPK ratio down to 1-1-2 or 1-3-2. That's easier to do by eliminating the source of N from calmag.

Now I have to factor in the effect of ph up/down (even though I use a tiny amount).
 

MyLittleGrundle

Well-Known Member
Great thread. So funny how things work out. I was just having this conversation with a friend the other day about this. I'm using Scientific Soils by Reed Spears and things started off great and rapidly went south. I was told that using R/O water would create a CalMag problem and not to PH the water at all. I compensated for the CalMag and things have just gone haywire. Plants are locked out even after multiple flushing and deficiency's abound. I went with this soil due the reviews i have read and the store that I have been going to sells it exclusively big regrets. Today I am getting Happy Frog and FFOF with some perilite, blending them and re-potting. Keeping my fingers crossed. Again thanks for the great thread

Grundle
 

workinit

Well-Known Member
You are correct, it could go up or down. Your water only takes a couple drops to move the PH, but let's say someone has a high alkalinity which is the waters ability to buffer acids they would have to use more to move the ph down. i would say that for some like yourself it's a non issue because of their water quality. But for some it could be a main reason they struggle with plant health.
 

workinit

Well-Known Member
Great thread. So funny how things work out. I was just having this conversation with a friend the other day about this. I'm using Scientific Soils by Reed Spears and things started off great and rapidly went south. I was told that using R/O water would create a CalMag problem and not to PH the water at all. I compensated for the CalMag and things have just gone haywire. Plants are locked out even after multiple flushing and deficiency's abound. I went with this soil due the reviews i have read and the store that I have been going to sells it exclusively big regrets. Today I am getting Happy Frog and FFOF with some perilite, blending them and re-potting. Keeping my fingers crossed. Again thanks for the great thread

Grundle
I've heard both sides of the RO debate. The makers of promix state somewhere on their website that RO water can cause problems in their mix. They explained the science of it but I don't recall the specifics. I think if your using a city water supply it would be wise to find out the alkalinity. Then use RO to cut the tap and get to a better number. If the science is correct you should never have to worry about PH so long as your in a buffered medium. Using a nutrient free medium like promix one could be in complete control of the grow NPK with feeding just water and nutrients never having to ever worry about PH. Very simple and very hard to screw up.
 
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