questions about different color leds

duckee1

Member
I am new to the led world and so far it looks very promising. From what I have read, led lights target an exact nanometer and/or target specific kelvins (white light). Cannabis has a need for full spectrum light, tho this need may be small in comparison to reds and blues but it still needs it. So clearly a full spectrum led or one that has a tunable (intensity controll for targeted k or nm) would be the best choice.

[h=3]From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia:
An action spectrum is the rate of a physiological activity plotted against wavelength of light. It shows which wavelength of light is most effectively used in a specific chemical reaction. Some reactants are able to use specific wavelengths of light more effectively to complete their reactions. For example, chlorophyll is much more efficient at using the red and blue spectrums of light to carry out photosynthesis. Therefore, the action spectrum graph would show spikes above the wavelengths representing the colors red and blue.
[/h]The following action spectrum graph for chlorophyll production is overlaid upon the color wavelength spectrum, the corresponding spectrums generated by standard 80% Red/ 20% Blue LED Grow Lights and standard HID (Metal Halide) Grow Lights are also overlaid.
One can observe that the standard HID Light produces light spectrums that are insufficient in the blue and red spectrum and excessive in the yellow-orange spectrum as well as in the yellow and green spectrum, where very little is absorbed. Halide lights compensate for this by producing bulk amounts in all spectrums they produce.
LED Grow Lights, used for this example, more closely parallel the exact wavelength requirements for chlorophyll producing plants, although most produce an excess of Red and are somewhat deficient in Blue light. By generating a light spectrum that most closely matches the Action Spectrum yields the greatest results with the least amount of energy expended.

The Standard Spectrum light include 10% 3500K White to fill in the requirements in the trough in the yellow and green zones.
Understanding General Spectrum Information:
200 - 280 nm UVC ultraviolet range which is generally harmful to plants. LEDs in this spectrum are non-existent or very expensive.
280 - 315 nm Includes harmful UVB ultraviolet light which causes plants colors to fade. This range is useful for Trichrome production, believed to be due to positive stress.

315 - 380 nm UVA ultraviolet light which is neither harmful nor beneficial to most plants.

380 - 400 nm Start of visible light spectrum. Process of chlorophyll absorption begins. UV protected plastics ideally block out any light below this range.
400 - 520 nm The violet, blue, and green bands. Peak absorption by chlorophyll occurs, and a strong influence on photosynthesis. (promotes vegetative growth)
520 - 610 nm The green, yellow, and orange bands and has less absorption by pigments.
610 - 720 nm The red band. Large amount of absorption by chlorophyll occurs, and most significant influence on photosynthesis. (promotes flowering and budding)
In Sunlight the ratio of red (660nm) to far red (730nm) is about 1.2:1
Interestingly Phytochrome Pfr is activated by 660nm and Pr is activated by 730nm.

720 - 1000 nm Little absorption by Chlorophyll here, Phytochrome responds in the 720range. Flowering and germination is influenced. Near this range and higher end of the band is the Infrared spectrum, which is mostly heat and promotes elongation or negatively affect water absorption/transpiration.

Many plant pigments have dual wavelength peaks that can be activated with LED light combinations:

Beta-carotene 450nm 480-485nm dual peak
chlorophyll a 430nm 662nm dual peak
chlorophyll b 453nm 642nm dual peak
phycoerythrin 590nm single peak
phycocyanin 625nm single peak
670nm and 700nm for the Emerson effect.

It is my understanding that cannabis has several "trigger banks" that innitate flowering.
Bank 2- is 630nm this is what triggers the plant to flower.
Bank 1- is 610nm and this is what triggers flowering after Bank 2
Bank 3- is 660nm and this is the one that gives you huge buds.
There are more banks for flowering that I am not totally clear on, but basically if you can provide all of them, a bumper crop is sure to reward you.


My question is:since plants have various peak requirments for specific wavelengths at different stages of growth. If you were to supply full spectrum (350-740) lets say each wavelength is at the same intensity- 100%. Theoretically the plants will only use what they need and disregard the rest past its peak of production, so could you veg and flower under the same constant intense light, without lessening your blues or going with a 7-1-1 ratio to flower.

Someone please with led experence chime in and correct me.

PEACE-DUCKEE

 

FranJan

Well-Known Member
If I'm understanding your question correctly then I think it comes down to it's probably just too expensive to build and research such a light when you can either build a greenhouse or get a plasma. Go to mouser.com armed with the above information and price out a panel with all those spectrums. You'll find it costs in the area of $2000.00 for the diodes alone. Remember you've got to pick out LEDs that can work together so you're going to pay a premium here. I'm sure others can get that price down but panels like that cost a ton.

In a perfect world you could adjust the lights accordingly to whatever stage you are in, what I call golf club growing, and benefit from not having to run all your lights at 100%. Running every spectrum at 100% kind of defeats the purpose of LED growing IMO, unless you're trying to mimic the sun, which to me means grow outdoors or get a plasma or even an induction.

You should look into Procyon. Their newest light will allow you to experiment with what you are talking about, though you may have to buy a couple of them which is $$$$$$ to say the least. Good Luck!
 

duckee1

Member
I was indirectly refering to a grow light made by Sunshine Systems. Its call Grow Panel Pro Ultra Blend and is tunable focusing in the 460-470 2700k & 6500K white 610-630-660.
If all my research has served me correct, I am safe in predicting these tunable/adjustable led lights are the future and will become a industry standard. Yes you are right, I am trying to immitate the sun. The best results are seen outdoor, but also alot can go south real quick. I prefer Indoor as It gives me complete controll.

So am I correct in my statement/question?

My question is:since plants have various peak requirments for specific wavelengths at different stages of growth. If you were to supply full spectrum (350-740) lets say each wavelength is at the same intensity- 100%. Theoretically the plants will only use what they need and disregard the rest past its peak of production, so could you veg and flower under the same constant intense light, without lessening your blues or going with a 7-1-1 ratio to flower.

I see HPS brands like digilux. They have a bulb(HPS) that has 25% more blue. Why stop at 25%? Why not go for 100%? And Im only talking about the usable wavelengths for cannabis or any plant for that matter. AND of course not the max for specific wavelengths like UV or IR. Also adding night treatments of 15min on/2hrs off durring dark (12/12) to innitiate very fast floral response.
 

duckee1

Member
I was indirectly refering to a grow light made by Sunshine Systems. Its call Grow Panel Pro Ultra Blend and is tunable focusing in the 460-470 2700k & 6500K white 610-630-660.
If all my research has served me correct, I am safe in predicting these tunable/adjustable led lights are the future and will become a industry standard. Yes you are right, I am trying to immitate the sun. The best results are seen outdoor, but also alot can go south real quick. I prefer Indoor as It gives me complete controll.

So am I correct in my statement/question?

My question is:since plants have various peak requirments for specific wavelengths at different stages of growth. If you were to supply full spectrum (350-740) lets say each wavelength is at the same intensity- 100%. Theoretically the plants will only use what they need and disregard the rest past its peak of production, so could you veg and flower under the same constant intense light, without lessening your blues or going with a 7-1-1 ratio to flower.

I see HPS brands like digilux. They have a bulb(HPS) that has 25% more blue. Why stop at 25%? Why not go for 100%? And Im only talking about all the usable wavelengths for cannabis or any plant for that matter. Why not just have them all at max. AND of course not the max for specific wavelengths like UV or IR. Also adding night treatments of 15min on/2hrs off durring dark (12/12) to innitiate very fast floral response.

Even if the plant has 10x's what it needs to peak a/b, it will only use what it needs. I believe the same goes for the white light. Even tho the plants use little of it, they do need it to aid in the other peak productions. So lets say the 2700-3000k white and 5500-6500k white were at the same intensity as the other important wavelengths, I feel the white light would futher increase the rate at which Chloro A,B,C,D,E,F and carotins, ect.. develope at the peak of their respective wavelength.


I think I just nailed this shit on the head.... What do you think? Am I crazy dreamer? lol
 

FranJan

Well-Known Member
LOL Crazy dreamer? Naaah, I think your just stoned again. LOL

[video=youtube;EbVKWCpNFhY]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EbVKWCpNFhY[/video]

Go check out stardustsailor's Astir thread. You should talk to him. He's got a very good grasp of LED tech and plants. Seriously. He'll get ya up to speed. If it suits his fancy. LOL Good Luck!
 

stardustsailor

Well-Known Member
Running every spectrum at 100%....Where's that "100%" exactly for each band,in Watt terms ?
'Cause that kinda matters a lot ..........
.

kind of defeats the purpose of LED growing IMO
...Why does ?
I'm guessing that Heliospectra's designers probably have way different opinion about that ....
:-P

unless you're trying to mimic the sun.
...What's really wrong with that ?
Depends which "sun " one tries to mimic ...


which to me means grow outdoors...
If only I could move to those exotic places ,of which I'm trying to mimic the sun ..... ;-)

or get a plasma or even an induction.
..Neither of them mimics any sun .....They just emmit a " full " white light ...
In most cases "unbalanced " for plant cultivation ...
Otherwise they would've been already in use , at some/certain of those huge greenhouses...



I see HPS brands like digilux. They have a bulb(HPS) that has 25% more blue. Why stop at 25%? Why not go for 100%?

Please do that and see what happens then ....
And one thing more ....
"25 % more blue " ...When average _
of a HPS bulb _ is 4% of overall power in blue ,just means that digilux has 5% of overall flux at blue ....
" 25% more blue " is ~1% increasement in blue , overall power -wise ...

 

Bumping Spheda

Well-Known Member
LEP, despite drops in spectral output at 425 and 475, is almost identical to natural daylight. If it wasn't a grand for a couple hundred Watts I'd probably be growing under one of those.
 

Bumping Spheda

Well-Known Member
Precisely. The picture links are borken, but you can easily Google what he's talking about; everything 100% all of the time. I mean, are you telling me if there was an LED with that spectral distribution WITH​ high efficiency you wouldn't use it? You'd be crazy.
 

duckee1

Member
If I'm understanding your question correctly then I think it comes down to it's probably just too expensive to build and research such a light when you can either build a greenhouse or get a plasma. Go to mouser.com armed with the above information and price out a panel with all those spectrums. You'll find it costs in the area of $2000.00 for the diodes alone. Remember you've got to pick out LEDs that can work together so you're going to pay a premium here. I'm sure others can get that price down but panels like that cost a ton.

In a perfect world you could adjust the lights accordingly to whatever stage you are in, what I call golf club growing, and benefit from not having to run all your lights at 100%. Running every spectrum at 100% kind of defeats the purpose of LED growing IMO, unless you're trying to mimic the sun, which to me means grow outdoors or get a plasma or even an induction.

You should look into Procyon. Their newest light will allow you to experiment with what you are talking about, though you may have to buy a couple of them which is $$$$$$ to say the least. Good Luck!

I wish I had that light. The software is the most valuable... i think thats what makes the light stand out from the rest. Lumigrow has a similar PAR software optinal with there comercial series lights.
 

duckee1

Member
Running every spectrum at 100%....Where's that "100%" exactly for each band,in Watt terms ?
'Cause that kinda matters a lot ..........
.

kind of defeats the purpose of LED growing IMO
...Why does ?
I'm guessing that Heliospectra's designers probably have way different opinion about that ....
:-P

unless you're trying to mimic the sun.
...What's really wrong with that ?
Depends which "sun " one tries to mimic ...


which to me means grow outdoors...
If only I could move to those exotic places ,of which I'm trying to mimic the sun ..... ;-)

or get a plasma or even an induction.
..Neither of them mimics any sun .....They just emmit a " full " white light ...
In most cases "unbalanced " for plant cultivation ...
Otherwise they would've been already in use , at some/certain of those huge greenhouses...



I see HPS brands like digilux. They have a bulb(HPS) that has 25% more blue. Why stop at 25%? Why not go for 100%?

Please do that and see what happens then ....
And one thing more ....
"25 % more blue " ...When average _
of a HPS bulb _ is 4% of overall power in blue ,just means that digilux has 5% of overall flux at blue ....
" 25% more blue " is ~1% increasement in blue , overall power -wise ...

ok so here is what I am working with:
Well I have 2 grow panel pro ultra blend 300w. I did the math on the wattage and they do use a power draw of 388w each. 88w each is for the 6 axial fans on each unit. 300w is the actual power draw for the all 5w leds. There are 3 dials for each unit. 610, 630, 660/2700k & 6500k white/460-470. The dials can be tuned independantly all the way off or all the way up. I know I am missing some other wavelength and I have plans on ordering 3 240w (actual draw) panels. These panels will have all the other wavelengths I dont have in the 300w. the 240's would be a full spectrum(11 band) with uv and ir So they would hang like this-240---300---240---300---240. and the 300w tunable ones will be mainly for flowering
 
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