Rationalists - What Was Your Last Big False Belief You Reluctantly Gave Up?

Heisenberg

Heisenberg

Well-Known Member
They say all skeptics have that one last bit of irrationality that they hold on to even when they accept just about everything else.

For me it was vitamins and herbal supplements. I was never a fanatic about it, but I did believe I was actually improving my health by taking anti-oxidants, drinking colloidal silver, ect. Even after I became interested in skepticism it was a long time before it occurred to me to be critical about them. Of course now I know colloidal silver is bunk, and anyone who gets anything close to a complete diet doesn't need a daily vitamin. There are some exceptions, my mother had most of her stomach removed. She doesn't absorb as much from her diet. But most people just end up making expensive urine.

Herbs are different. Each one must be judged on it's own merit. Some are useful, most aren't, or at least do not do what they claim. There aren't many that would justify a healthy person taking them on a daily basis. There is no real good reason to seek out drinks infused with herbal promises. Most of the herbal info you are bombarded with when you walk into GNC is just marketing, however it wouldn't be fair to make a blanket statement that herbs are bunk, because some are quite amazing. ;)

So that was the last bit of foolishness I held onto. What was yours? What made you change your mind?
 
mindphuk

mindphuk

Well-Known Member
I'm still undecided about acupuncture. Although I don't buy the meridian principle, I do think that there is the potential for underlying mechanism wrt releases of endorphins and other neurotransmitters. This one is a difficult one to do a properly blinded study as every patient knows if they have been through acupuncture. However, sham needling seems to be able to replicate the results of an experienced practitioner. This does not say that needling is not effective, only that locations might not be as specific as the traditionalists claim.
 
mindphuk

mindphuk

Well-Known Member
Life does have a purpose. At least in the biological sense, all life is to act as a machine to support and pass along our genes. It may not be romantic or pleasing to our metaphysical beliefs but it is pretty close to reality.
 
Heisenberg

Heisenberg

Well-Known Member
mindphuk said:
I'm still undecided about acupuncture. Although I don't buy the meridian principle, I do think that there is the potential for underlying mechanism wrt releases of endorphins and other neurotransmitters. This one is a difficult one to do a properly blinded study as every patient knows if they have been through acupuncture. However, sham needling seems to be able to replicate the results of an experienced practitioner. This does not say that needling is not effective, only that locations might not be as specific as the traditionalists claim.
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I don't presume for a second that you aren't educated on this subject, but this article sums it up pretty well for me.
 
Padawanbater2

Padawanbater2

Well-Known Member
mindphuk said:
Life does have a purpose. At least in the biological sense, all life is to act as a machine to support and pass along our genes. It may not be romantic or pleasing to our metaphysical beliefs but it is pretty close to reality.
Click to expand...
How did you reach that conclusion?
 
Brazko

Brazko

Well-Known Member
Actually, Acupunture/Acupressure, is very successful and real. It is very similar to
Trigger point, however, practicioners would claim that they are completely different stating that points related between the two may overlap coincidently. They however work the same in principle when applied correctly. Whether, they are imaginary chi meridians or not, the body is wired, (lets just focus on the nervous system when picturing this). The reason people get radiating pain/ or referred pain is because certain organs and muscles are wired along the same path. So inducing any kind of stimuli along any nerve path will and does consequently affect the organs and muscles along that nerve group. Trigger point works in the same manner but addresses the actual nodule formed/ manifested in the muscle. However, the same principle of applying pressure/stimuli is used in the releasing of that muscle fiber/group and any correlating organs associated with that control nerve group will be affected as well.

Does it work? Yes...

And yes you are correct in your assessment that results may even occur with sham artists and even inexperienced professionals of the trade. You or, anyone else just playing around with it may even gain some positive results from it.

mindphuk said:
I'm still undecided about acupuncture. Although I don't buy the meridian principle, I do think that there is the potential for underlying mechanism wrt releases of endorphins and other neurotransmitters. This one is a difficult one to do a properly blinded study as every patient knows if they have been through acupuncture. However, sham needling seems to be able to replicate the results of an experienced practitioner. This does not say that needling is not effective, only that locations might not be as specific as the traditionalists claim.
Click to expand...
 
Heisenberg

Heisenberg

Well-Known Member
The better designed and controlled the study, the less acupuncture shows any benefit. It's been demonstrated that you don't have to even use needles at all, as long as the patient thinks you are using them. The visit and experience itself triggers patients to feel that some good has been done. That's about it.

From The New England Journal of Medicine
As noted above, the most recent wellpowered clinical trials of acupuncture for chronic low back pain showed that sham acupuncture was as effective as real acupuncture. The simplest explanation of such findings is that the specific therapeutic effects of acupuncture, if present, are small, whereas its clinically relevant benefits are mostly attributable to contextual and psychosocial factors, such as patients’ beliefs and expectations, attention from the acupuncturist, and highly focused, spatially directed attention on the part of the patient.
Click to expand...
In addition there is this archive of evidence showing that when the strictest of scientific controls are applied, acupuncture fails to produce positive results. There is enough there to keep you reading for days. Acupuncture is one of the most exhaustively researched alternative treatments there is, and for all that effort not one bit of evidence shows that it's effective. If there is a working mechanism for acupuncture, then why does it disappear when we control for outside factors?

Some proponents of symptomatic acupuncture have divorced their claims from the original philosophy of acupuncture, claiming that the needling works through more prosaic mechanisms, such as the release of pain-relieving endorphins or through nerve stimulation. While these explanations are plausible, they are post-hoc speculations and have not been demonstrated to occur to a clinically relevant degree.

But before we speculate about possible mechanism, we need to establish that acupuncture has an effect – that it works for some specific indication. This has not been established, despite rather robust clinical research efforts. If there were not a cultural inertia to the notion of acupuncture the existing research would have been sufficient to abandon this modality as a dead end.
Click to expand...
 
darkdestruction420

darkdestruction420

Well-Known Member
Heisenberg said:
They say all skeptics have that one last bit of irrationality that they hold on to even when they accept just about everything else.

For me it was vitamins and herbal supplements. I was never a fanatic about it, but I did believe I was actually improving my health by taking anti-oxidants, drinking colloidal silver, ect. Even after I became interested in skepticism it was a long time before it occurred to me to be critical about them. Of course now I know colloidal silver is bunk, and anyone who gets anything close to a complete diet doesn't need a daily vitamin. There are some exceptions, my mother had most of her stomach removed. She doesn't absorb as much from her diet. But most people just end up making expensive urine.

Herbs are different. Each one must be judged on it's own merit. Some are useful, most aren't, or at least do not do what they claim. There aren't many that would justify a healthy person taking them on a daily basis. There is no real good reason to seek out drinks infused with herbal promises. Most of the herbal info you are bombarded with when you walk into GNC is just marketing, however it wouldn't be fair to make a blanket statement that herbs are bunk, because some are quite amazing. ;)

So that was the last bit of foolishness I held onto. What was yours? What made you change your mind?
Click to expand...
It's sad, but i refused to believe pro wrestling wasnt real for the longest time, lol, up till like 13-14 when i actually met some guys around here who were trying to become pros who invited me over and said they could teach me it as well since it was my dream....anyway, they had this tape set of like 3 tapes that went through moves and how to fall and all that stuff and it dawned on me while watching the 2nd tape that everything people had been telling me WAS true and it was staged. Sad
sad day.
 
Heisenberg

Heisenberg

Well-Known Member
darkdestruction420 said:
It's sad, but i refused to believe pro wrestling wasnt real for the longest time, lol, up till like 13-14 when i actually met some guys around here who were trying to become pros who invited me over and said they could teach me it as well since it was my dream....anyway, they had this tape set of like 3 tapes that went through moves and how to fall and all that stuff and it dawned on me while watching the 2nd tape that everything people had been telling me WAS true and it was staged. Sad
sad day.
Click to expand...

Haha, good story, thanks for sharing. It seem wrestling, like Santa Clause, may do some good by stimulating critical thinking.
 
Heisenberg

Heisenberg

Well-Known Member
Perfextionist420 said:
that the government had my best interests in mind when it made cannabis illegal
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Hehe, good one. Definitely a subject I wish more people would get educated about. It's also a pretty interesting topic from a skeptical point of view. It's has characteristics of conspiracy, big pharma, alternative medicine, deceitful government, ect. Most of these are usually red flags for bullshit. Conspiracy theories, by definition, never have supporting evidence. Big pharma isn't hiding the cure for AIDS. Alternative medicine, if it worked, would be part of the mainstream and not an alternative. But with the cannabis debate we find truth in all these things. It is a viable alternative that isn't part of the mainstream due to deceit and conspiracy from the govt and big pharma.

At first glance it is really easy to believe that the govt knows what's best and the stoners are just coming up with half-baked reasons why they shouldn't get in trouble. When you examine the history and facts though it becomes clear which side is making mistakes, lying, and downright oppressing the other.

Thankfully evidence usually wins out in the end. We were prevented from having solid evidence for so long because of the laws, but now we are seeing better controlled studies showing positive results for cannabis treatments. It may take a while, but I believe reason will eventually prevail.
 
mindphuk

mindphuk

Well-Known Member
Heisenberg said:
Hehe, good one. Definitely a subject I wish more people would get educated about. It's also a pretty interesting topic from a skeptical point of view. It's has characteristics of conspiracy, big pharma, alternative medicine, deceitful government, ect. Most of these are usually red flags for bullshit. Conspiracy theories, by definition, never have supporting evidence. Big pharma isn't hiding the cure for AIDS. Alternative medicine, if it worked, would be part of the mainstream and not an alternative. But with the cannabis debate we find truth in all these things. It is a viable alternative that isn't part of the mainstream due to deceit and conspiracy from the govt and big pharma.

At first glance it is really easy to believe that the govt knows what's best and the stoners are just coming up with half-baked reasons why they shouldn't get in trouble. When you examine the history and facts though it becomes clear which side is making mistakes, lying, and downright oppressing the other.

Thankfully evidence usually wins out in the end. We were prevented from having solid evidence for so long because of the laws, but now we are seeing better controlled studies showing positive results for cannabis treatments. It may take a while, but I believe reason will eventually prevail.
Click to expand...
Well this isn't a conspiracy in the massive government coverup variety. These groups conspire publicly at election time, however they are in it for their own self-interest and are not part of some major cabal, trying to keep weed illegal. Of course the Anslinger/Hearst/Dupont connection was a conspiracy in the true sense of the word but again, solid evidence to support those claims and not beyond the realm of common sense either, something that isn't shared by most conspiracy theories where the depth and breadth of a secret coverup defies reality.
 
Brazko

Brazko

Well-Known Member
Brazko said:
So inducing any kind of stimuli along any nerve path will and does consequently affect the organs and muscles along that nerve group.
Click to expand...

The study was flawed from the beginning so the results they were looking for should be flawed as well. What do better designed and controlled mean? What accounted for the acupuncturist being experienced? It takes more than just years to be considered experienced and skilled. What kind of chronic back pain? Was it functional or, structural. Acupuncture will not magically cure a herniated disc, but it can facilitate the healing and repair of it, and not to mention all the other underlying problems that may have been in place causing the lower back pain included.

It should be simple for you to look at this and see that their entire approach to solving the mystery was wrong. And even though the placement of everything from A-z placed everywhere on the body showed a precentage of positive results, they conclude it must be no such thing so it doesn't work or, exist. That's their/your critical analysis of acupuncture?

When you choose a doctor do you only look for how many years they've been practicing? Or, do you look at the results he's had in the past with patients? So, the same should be said for choosing a more reliable, skilled, and knowledgeable acupuncturist. Then under this conditional method of selecting your acupuncturist, choose random people to undergo the study. Note their condition before and after.

I'm really too high to be typing right now and there are too many flaws to point out with both studies it's redundant to speak on. Both approaches were designed to reach the conclusion they had already decided on. Don't call that a study, call it a work of art.


Anyhow, I've explained to you how it works. I wanted to edit a warning on the last post for no one to stick needles in them without seeking a highly skilled professional, that could be dangerous. I however was speaking about acupressure/ trigger point, but even with this some knowledge on the subject should be attained before practicing.

:eyesmoke:




Heisenberg said:
The better designed and controlled the study, the less acupuncture shows any benefit. It's been demonstrated that you don't have to even use needles at all, as long as the patient thinks you are using them. The visit and experience itself triggers patients to feel that some good has been done. That's about it.

From The New England Journal of Medicine
In addition there is this archive of evidence showing that when the strictest of scientific controls are applied, acupuncture fails to produce positive results. There is enough there to keep you reading for days. Acupuncture is one of the most exhaustively researched alternative treatments there is, and for all that effort not one bit of evidence shows that it's effective. If there is a working mechanism for acupuncture, then why does it disappear when we control for outside factors?
Click to expand...
 
Heisenberg

Heisenberg

Well-Known Member
Brazko said:
The study was flawed from the beginning so the results they were looking for should be flawed as well. What do better designed and controlled mean? What accounted for the acupuncturist being experienced? It takes more than just years to be considered experienced and skilled. What kind of chronic back pain? Was it functional or, structural. Acupuncture will not magically cure a herniated disc, but it can facilitate the healing and repair of it, and not to mention all the other underlying problems that may have been in place causing the lower back pain included.
Click to expand...
You've explained nothing other than speculation of what you believe is going on. I don't know which of the studies you are referring to but you seem pretty sure that it was flawed without even knowing obvious details. You managed to determine it to be invalid without managing to find out if the pain was chronic, structural or functional... You also seem to be asking what it means to have controls in studies. I Apologize, but I don't completely grasp your words. The level of experience of the practitioner is not something I brought up at all. As for your other questions, follow the links.
 
Brazko

Brazko

Well-Known Member
You didn't bring up experience, I initally read both articles on how they conducted the study. It's easy to determine / speculate what went on. It's called deciphering information on what was said as well as what was not said. So that's why I raised those questions because as stated before the study was conducted on a false premise. The study said subjects who had CHRONIC back pain, so I can speculate the different underlying diseases associated with CHRONIC back pain, both structural and functional. Either way it has nothing to do with their approach to seeing if acupuncture works because that is not how acupuncture works. Acupuncture does not treat disease.

A knowledgeable and skilled practicioner would never have a person coming to them for an entire year to stick needles in them in hopes of being magically cured. They would treat the cause which would more than likely require an approach of not only just needling them. It would include their diet, posture, excercise, and overall health. It's for a lacking of better understanding of what acupuncture is which causes the study to be flawed. No skilled practioner would approach a patient in the manner of how the study was performed.

I would suggest you stop following the link as an gateway to understanding if acupuncture really works or not. Also, I stated what you said earlier in your post about better designed and controlled. I know what controls are in a study, I wasn't asking that, but more like what was the specifics of the controls. Oh I remember CHRONIC back pain,,:roll:

Heisenberg said:
You've explained nothing other than speculation of what you believe is going on. I don't know which of the studies you are referring to but you seem pretty sure that it was flawed without even knowing obvious details. You managed to determine it to be invalid without managing to find out if the pain was chronic, structural or functional... You also seem to be asking what it means to have controls in studies. I Apologize, but I don't completely grasp your words. The level of experience of the practitioner is not something I brought up at all. As for your other questions, follow the links.
Click to expand...
 
Brazko

Brazko

Well-Known Member
I hope this give you a better understanding of acupuncture. I already paraphrased for you "The Western Scientific explanation" in my earlier post.



http://www.howdoesacupuncturework.com/

How does acupuncture work?
Many people who have experienced the therapeutic effects of Acupuncture will vow that it truly does work. The common yet difficult question that follows on from this is, “How does Acupuncture Work?”
It is important to note there are two important explanations to this question, which must be considered. These are the Traditional Chinese Medicine Explanation and the Western Scientific Explanation.
 
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