Reason for ‘2-part' ‘a’ and ‘b’ mix

fatman7574

fatman7574

New Member
REASON FOR ‘2-PART' ‘A’ AND ‘B’ MIX.

To In order to combine all the elements commonly needed for plant growth into a concentrated form, the salts need to be mixed into 2 separate solutions. The reason for this is that, while in dilute solution all ions become soluble, in concentrated solution certain ions react together to form insoluble salts. If an ion is in an insoluble salt, it is no longer available for plant growth. Once ‘precipitated’ it can only very slowly dissolve back into solution when diluted again. Precipitation is simply the result of two ions combining in solution to form a salt which is insoluble, eg when calcium nitrate and magnesium sulfate are added to water in strong solutions the salts dissociate producing magnesium nitrate along with calcium and sulfate ions which then combine to form calcium sulfate or gypsum which ‘precipitates’. This occurs because compounds such as calcium sulfate have very low ‘saturation’ values and can not exist as concentrated solutions. Generally it is necessary to keep the calcium separate from the sulfate and phosphate salts. Therefore the calcium nitrate and calcium chloride is kept separate from the magnesium sulfate, potassium sulfate, sulfates of trace elements, and monopotassium phosphate, all other salts can be mixed in either A or B. There are certain brands of nutrient which seem to combine all elements into a single mix, but the manufacture of these
products is beyond the reach of most growers.
 
Essex

Essex

Active Member
I have been lookin for days for this! trust it to be you, lol

thanks again man, your an inspiration. I owe ya ------>:joint:
 
Black Thumb

Black Thumb

Well-Known Member
So if have to keep the formula's seperate would the ultimate feed schedule consist of two seperate waterings ?

For instance if you had two drippers per plant A dripper and B dripper both dripping at different times of the day ?
 
whiteflour

whiteflour

Well-Known Member
Black Thumb said:
So if have to keep the formula's seperate would the ultimate feed schedule consist of two seperate waterings ?

For instance if you had two drippers per plant A dripper and B dripper both dripping at different times of the day ?
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No. It says not to mix them as concentrates but that they can be mixed as a dillute. Meaning you should premix each solution in say a gallon of water before adding to the reservoir.
 
fatman7574

fatman7574

New Member
NO you just need to keep them sepeartewhen they are in their concentartedform. they arrive typically as liquids say in one gallon jugs. Yoycan not mix sya 1 cup of o pART A into a tow cup measuringcup with 1 cup of part B as that would cause a precpitaion ud sually of some calcium, nitrogen and iron. You can dilutethem and then add then together. Say 10 ml of Part A into a gallon jug nearly full of water, shake it up then add 10 ml of the Part B and shake it up. When you add nutrients to a reservoir with plant roots in it such as a DWC, then remove about a quart of tow of ater add the fertilizer Part A to it mix it and slowly pourr it in the reservoir then do the same ith the Part B.
 
fatman7574

fatman7574

New Member
tea tree said:
what is your take on flora nova then.
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Flora Nova is not simply mixed like a common fertilizer. It is actually heated under pressure (almost autoclaved) and it has humus and fulvic acids in it instead of all the trace nutrients except iron. It is not a simple poured and stirred formulations like most hydropinic nutrient formulas. It also by ratio has low nitrogen helping to prevent precipitation.
 
Boston's Best

Boston's Best

Member
Some minerals must be chelated or bonded with an amino acid so they will not bond with other minerals in the bottle and form compounds plants can not absorb. When certain minerals in raw forms interact, reactions and bonds form rendering absorption impossible for plants and causing lockout/deficiency. If they could put it all in one bottle, they would.
 
fatman7574

fatman7574

New Member
Boston's Best said:
Some minerals must be chelated or bonded with an amino acid so they will not bond with other minerals in the bottle and form compounds plants can not absorb. When certain minerals in raw forms interact, reactions and bonds form rendering absorption impossible for plants and causing lockout/deficiency. If they could put it all in one bottle, they would.
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Not true. MJ manfacturers do a lot of gimmicky things to increase sells. Flora Nova is just another gimmicy thing. None of the major nutrients are being chelated or bonded with amino acids. At normal to high pH, iron, zinc, manganese, and copper react with hydroxl ions in solution to form insoluble hydrous oxides. The reaction can be prevented by protecting the metal ion inside a chelating agent or ligand. A tyical ligand will have chemial groups that can share electrons with the metal ion to form a complex, which is then resistant to reaction in solution. The most widely used chelating agent used with hydroponic is EDTA. Other chelating agents of organic origin include humates and fulvic acids. Ie they could have easily added the manganese, zinc and copper as the iron is chelated plus the humic and fulvic acid compleses are also chelaters. This simply means they must consider that the coal based humic and fulvic acids contain adequate concentrations of trace nutrients other than iron. More quack science.
 
Essex

Essex

Active Member
I was thinking EDDS would make a "better" chalating agent than EDTA as its biodegradable? seems more organic, lol
 
Black Thumb

Black Thumb

Well-Known Member
fatman7574 said:
NO you just need to keep them sepeartewhen they are in their concentartedform. they arrive typically as liquids say in one gallon jugs. Yoycan not mix sya 1 cup of o pART A into a tow cup measuringcup with 1 cup of part B as that would cause a precpitaion ud sually of some calcium, nitrogen and iron. You can dilutethem and then add then together. Say 10 ml of Part A into a gallon jug nearly full of water, shake it up then add 10 ml of the Part B and shake it up. When you add nutrients to a reservoir with plant roots in it such as a DWC, then remove about a quart of tow of ater add the fertilizer Part A to it mix it and slowly pourr it in the reservoir then do the same ith the Part B.
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Ahhh, so is this why i get this chalky like solids when i mix some of my nutrients?
For instance i just recently added the dyna gro products , grow bloom and protekt.
When i opened the bottles they shocked me with a little volt of electricity the first time, anyways
I Started adding GH Micro , bloom, and dyna grow and bloom , but when i added the protekt ( silicon) to the measuring glass, it made all the left over liquid kind of solidify and now my glasses have this chalky film like calcium build up on the glasses afterwards.
 
tea tree

tea tree

Well-Known Member
I got a question. Since this thread has got your attention fatman. This is off topic. But I am experimenting with using tapwater and gh three part and the lucas formula. Diferent mixes for difrent buckets. However my calcium in my tapwater is 61 I think. Brainfart. Wait the average is 53. So hardwater micro is recomended for calcium over 70. So would I be more correct to use regular micro? I know about buffers for tapwater hardwater micro. My ph with three part is fine in flower but needs more ph down in veg. I have gone to lucas for some veg buckets for this reason to see what happens. Also I am concerned my mag level is to low without lucas. Anway. Hardwater or regular micro. Sorry to hijack, hey, why let a good thread pittle out. :)
 
fatman7574

fatman7574

New Member
I would not bother with hard water micro unless your ppm is much higher. Floramicro is the same as Hradwater micro except hardwater micro ahs 100 ppm of calcium and regular Floramicro has 500 ppm. So unless your Tap water is say 200 ppm or higher just use FloraMicro as your entire tap water TDS will not be all calcium and calcium can be used at some pretty hich concentrations without problems. Example: My tap water has a TDS of 450-500 ppm, but my calcium is only 37 ppm. For reasons such as that a water analysis is the only real way to tell what inpact your tap water will have on your nutrients.

Lucas uses a 2 to 1 ratio of Bloom amd Micro. So let say it is mixed at a dilution ratio of 100x. That means 1 part micro and two parts Bloom. That means approx 166.7 ppm of calcium and 166.7 of Nitrogen using regular micro. Using hard water that would mean 33 ppm calcium and 143 ppm nitrogen plus what ever yuor tap water added in the way of calcium. For a recirculating reservoir, calcium at a level of 70% to 300% of nitrogen is acceptable. Typically higher levels of calcium typically just means that at a given EC the mix with more calcium will have a lower amount of all other nutrients than a mix with lower calcium. There can be problems with too much calcium but problems with too little calcium are much more frequent.
 
mr.smileyface

mr.smileyface

Well-Known Member
fatman7574 said:
REASON FOR ‘2-PART' ‘A’ AND ‘B’ MIX.

To In order to combine all the elements commonly needed for plant growth into a concentrated form, the salts need to be mixed into 2 separate solutions. The reason for this is that, while in dilute solution all ions become soluble, in concentrated solution certain ions react together to form insoluble salts. If an ion is in an insoluble salt, it is no longer available for plant growth. Once ‘precipitated’ it can only very slowly dissolve back into solution when diluted again. Precipitation is simply the result of two ions combining in solution to form a salt which is insoluble, eg when calcium nitrate and magnesium sulfate are added to water in strong solutions the salts dissociate producing magnesium nitrate along with calcium and sulfate ions which then combine to form calcium sulfate or gypsum which ‘precipitates’. This occurs because compounds such as calcium sulfate have very low ‘saturation’ values and can not exist as concentrated solutions. Generally it is necessary to keep the calcium separate from the sulfate and phosphate salts. Therefore the calcium nitrate and calcium chloride is kept separate from the magnesium sulfate, potassium sulfate, sulfates of trace elements, and monopotassium phosphate, all other salts can be mixed in either A or B. There are certain brands of nutrient which seem to combine all elements into a single mix, but the manufacture of these
products is beyond the reach of most growers.
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I agree. They tell you to mix in the Product with the most N first. I knew that bloom ussually contains P M S and K And when mixed with Micro in an undiluted form they will form gypsum.
What do u think about the N first?
 
fatman7574

fatman7574

New Member
It really does not matter which one is mixed in first as long as the two parts are not added at the same time in the same palce in the reservoir. I use EC controllers foryears with recirculation reservoir to add 100 X concentrates of both part a and Part B at the same time but at opposite ends of the resrvoir and at slow rates. The reservoir all had circulating pumps that was equivalent to something like stirring. Calcium at high concentratios has to be kept a way from metal sulfates at high concentrations to prevent Gypsum formation. However, in preparations such as Floranova the pressure "cooking" and high levels of chelation would prevent this from occuring.
 
fatman7574

fatman7574

New Member
If you can find it try out some Matrix Blue (VEG) or Matrix Red (Bloom) for SunTec in New Zealand. It is supposedly being sold in the US by American Agritech. They are complete one part liquid 100X concentrates, containing Nitrogen, Phosphorusm, Potassium, Magnesium, Calcium, Sulfur, Boron, Copper, Iron, Zinc, Manganese, Molybdenum, Chromium, Iodine and Selinium. Yes, all in one bottle. There bloom is a bit low for mj bloom, but a littlecalcium nitrate would fix that easily enough.

Yes Suntech is the Firm that states in all there adds and web sites they will provide no answers, consulting or assistance for the growing of illegal crops. Not true but it looks good to authorities.
 
tea tree

tea tree

Well-Known Member
+ rep fatman. I am looking around for more info about advanced and their three part today for fun too. Making your formulation sounds fun but I want a pretty bottle. Anyone using their three part like a lucas. They boast their buffers are better than others. I have been watching the videos. For now I have just bought some regular micro. Like what the astronauts use.
 
S

sdkid

Active Member
fatman,

shot you a pm. Ill state in here incase you didnt get, i am going to start using the GH line. Should i mess with any of the additives?
 
fatman7574

fatman7574

New Member
tea tree said:
+ rep fatman. I am looking around for more info about advanced and their three part today for fun too. Making your formulation sounds fun but I want a pretty bottle. Anyone using their three part like a lucas. They boast their buffers are better than others. I have been watching the videos. For now I have just bought some regular micro. Like what the astronauts use.
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The buffering is done by calcium, magnesium and phosphorus. I am not aware their being any such thing as better calcium, magnesium or phosphorus. The ratios really do not even vary that much between the major manufacturers such as AN, GH, Dutch Master, Canna or even the new Matrix (1 part) when it comes to their standard two part (three part series). A series in three bottles such as GH Floramicro, Floragro and Florabloom is called a two part, as they were originally formulated so that Veg was 1 Part Grow and 1 part Micro, IE two parts. Bloom used to be 1 part Bloom and 1 part Micro. So really a 3 bottle series is made up of 2 two part formulations. Myself I formulate not a micro that is used for both but a separate two part for grow and for bloom. With GH and AN etc if grow is Part A then Micro is part B. The same micro is used for both grow and Bloom. It is not the best way to do it but it is easier to convince someone to buy 3 bottles than 4 bottles.

It is all so insane any way as the main reason we have so many different fertilizers and supplements is due to the common usage of recirculating reservoirs. This is generally considered necessary mj because nutrients are so expensive. That is sad as nutrients for mj are only so expensive because so many unknowing people will pay the ridiculous prices. Consider this: two gallons of 100x concentrate equal to using 1 part of GH grow and 1 part GH micro requires about 2.5 pounds of fertilizers. That cost GH about 50 cents per pound. So those two gallons are sold at such a huge mark up that people run recirculating reservoirs and do very infrequent change outs of nutrients.

Nearly all commercial green house growers use drain to waste nutrient systems as they do not pay high prices for fertilizers. They buy their fertilizers for less than GH or AN. They simply mix there own. They are growing vegetables that sell for 25 to 50 cents a pound tops but they can still profitably grow drain to waste. The ones that do not grow drain to waste test their nutrients once or twice weekly and adjust each fertilizer, they do not just dump in all nutrients as a concentrate to restore the EC and then run an unbalanced nutrient reservoir and then do that over and over weeks. I guarantee you that you would be sickened by a reservoir nutrient analysis if you used the typical Lucas method of top offs that are entirely based merely upon maintaining the EC reading. It is not unusual to see a reservoir topped off repeatedly for a full bloom cycle to have a calcium ppm at 600, a magnesium at 150 and a phosphorus at 500. IE you will have a reservoir that is filled with almost all buffers. IE locked out nutrients. IE all the other fertilizers combined will likely be less than 100 ppm.

This is a great buffer. I know that AN is not using it and very likely no other MJ nutrient manufacturer due to is else cost.
MES (morpholinoethanesulfonic acid, a buffer) $26 for 100 grams or $200 for 2 kilos (2000 grams). It takes 25 grams for 1 gallon of per 100 gallon of dilute nutrient made from 100X fertilizer. Nice stuff though as it is not taken up by the plants and it has no effect on enzymes. It buffers against high pH so phosphate is not needed in high amounts. It does not cause nutrient lock-out.
 
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