Running oscillating lights, or less lights?

fn217

fn217

Active Member
Hello everyone. Bit of a predicament here.

I totally undersized my cooling. My mini split can't keep up with my DE room. I am running 12 open 1000w DE's. The room is fully sealed and I run a CO2 burner at 1200ppm. Room is 30x15, I'm running 3 custom built trays with plants filling them up completely. My room is basically packed full of plantage.

My issue is that the AC simply can't keep up. I made the mistake of running one large air handler rather than a couple to split up my cooling capacity, but I also undersized my compressor as well.

Shit sucks, but here I am.

My question is, if you were in this position, would you rather run the lights in an oscillating fashion with 6 lights on per cycle. Switching the lights that are on every 2 hours. I would imagine this might operate similar to a light mover.


Here is what the room currently looks like.
The side closest to the lights is already on HPS, which is why they look so yellow. Everything else is MH, today is day 8 of flower.


And yes, yes, before you ask, I am currently planning a full on LED build for the room for the next run. Fuck heat and photon producing energy inefficiency.
 
fn217

fn217

Active Member
Daveindiego said:
You have this much invested this far, why not add 3 or 4 14,000 btu portable AC’s.

That’s about 1500-1800 worth of ACs at Bestbuy.
Click to expand...
I suppose it's not a bad idea seeing as, as you say, I've already invested this much.

I suppose if I later want to go all LED's (I do) it may prove to be a cost ineffective option.

I've thought about stepping up the cooling. I'm basically unable to just cool 4 lights, so perhaps I would only need to add 2?
 
Last edited:
Daveindiego

Daveindiego

Well-Known Member
fn217 said:
I suppose it's not a bad idea seeing as, as you say, I've already invested this much.

I suppose if I later want to go all LED's (I do) it may prove to be a cost ineffective option.

I've thought about stepping up the cooling. I'm basically unable to just cool 4 lights, so perhaps I would only need to add 2?
Click to expand...
Yeah, you can always step up from 2.

Plants need the lights. You’re better off improving the environment.
 
Odin*

Odin*

Well-Known Member
Is there a step, or two, to enter the room? Just gauging from the pic (door). If there is, your ceiling is 9’-10’. If not, we’re looking at roughly 7.5’. With DE’s, you want at least 12’, and that would be with short(ish) plants.

Plants don’t care about your “lumens per watt”, you don’t want LED’s. I’ve refrained from delving deep into the “Why” because I do not want to aid, in any way, the d-bag LED fanatics (not that all LED users are d-bags, just the “blind lunatics”). If you want a detailed “why”, I might just drop it here due to “low traffic”. Fuck that, I’ll pm you.

If you were to ask for my humble opinion, your ceilings are too low for DE’s. Drop down to single ended 1ks. Digistars are great, Galaxy Pro Amps work well also, but they require a fan for cooling, which could fail. Their “plus” is the lowest RF (w/ ferrite cord) and FCC compliance. Couple that with Ushio bulbs, and you’re not “Golden”, you’ve gone “Platinum”.

With SE 1k’s you should add an additional 36k btu split, or drop the current split, and go 5 ton. Adding another air handler to your current system (if it can handle “dual zone”) will not double cooling capability. If it’s a 3 ton condensor, you would have 18k btu’s at each handler (split), not 36k at each.
 
ttystikk

ttystikk

Well-Known Member
The checkerboard approach is a good plan.

Instead of alternating your lights every 2 hours- which will prematurely age them- run half for 6 hours and then the other half for 6 hours. Be careful to keep an overlap so there isn't any dark time in the middle of the day cycle.

You'll lose less yield than you think, you'll keep your temps in check and your options open. Next run you can make whatever changes you need.

FWIW, I think the height of your lights is fine and switching to SE HPS is just a dumb idea.

Keep a journal here and post pics every few days so we can follow along with you.
 
fn217

fn217

Active Member
Odin* said:
Is there a step, or two, to enter the room? Just gauging from the pic (door). If there is, your ceiling is 9’-10’. If not, we’re looking at roughly 7.5’. With DE’s, you want at least 12’, and that would be with short(ish) plants.

Plants don’t care about your “lumens per watt”, you don’t want LED’s. I’ve refrained from delving deep into the “Why” because I do not want to aid, in any way, the d-bag LED fanatics (not that all LED users are d-bags, just the “blind lunatics”). If you want a detailed “why”, I might just drop it here due to “low traffic”. Fuck that, I’ll pm you.

If you were to ask for my humble opinion, your ceilings are too low for DE’s. Drop down to single ended 1ks. Digistars are great, Galaxy Pro Amps work well also, but they require a fan for cooling, which could fail. Their “plus” is the lowest RF (w/ ferrite cord) and FCC compliance. Couple that with Ushio bulbs, and you’re not “Golden”, you’ve gone “Platinum”.

With SE 1k’s you should add an additional 36k btu split, or drop the current split, and go 5 ton. Adding another air handler to your current system (if it can handle “dual zone”) will not double cooling capability. If it’s a 3 ton condensor, you would have 18k btu’s at each handler (split), not 36k at each.
Click to expand...
The ceilings are 9'. With all due respect, I disagree with your opinions on the DE's and the LED's. Not that I am any expert by any means, but I wholeheartedly disagree with your statement about moving to SE's. I think DE 600w would be a better idea than to run single ended bulbs honestly. Much better coverage, penetration, and efficiency. Also disagree with you strongly on the LED's, but I know that that is a heated topic so I'm not going to bring that up here, as I'm sure that we could go on and on. As far as equipment, I think my Solis-tek's and Phillips Green Power bulbs are about as good as equipment gets in the DE HPS.

But seriously, thank you for the response and feedback. I do genuinely appreciate it. Feel free to PM me about the LED's, I'd love to discuss it.



ttystikk said:
The checkerboard approach is a good plan.

Instead of alternating your lights every 2 hours- which will prematurely age them- run half for 6 hours and then the other half for 6 hours. Be careful to keep an overlap so there isn't any dark time in the middle of the day cycle.

You'll lose less yield than you think, you'll keep your temps in check and your options open. Next run you can make whatever changes you need.

FWIW, I think the height of your lights is fine and switching to SE HPS is just a dumb idea.

Keep a journal here and post pics every few days so we can follow along with you.
Click to expand...
Thanks for your input. Alternating lights every two hours causing premature aging... to what? Bulbs, ballasts, light controllers, or all? I really don't care about the bulbs. Like I said, I intend to change things up quite a bit next run so I just want to make sure I can pull through this time around. As far as overlap, it is so stupidly bright in that room, certainly nothing is getting dark time. Maybe significantly less PAR, but the walls are painted semi-gloss white so the light is very intense.

It's good to hear you agree with the oscillation. I didn't come here just to hear the things that agree with my point of view, but it's good to hear that others think it's not the dumbest idea in the world. The light is so intense that I simply don't see how it would result in massive yield loss.

Great idea on the journal, I most definitely will be making one.
 
ttystikk

ttystikk

Well-Known Member
fn217 said:
The ceilings are 9'. With all due respect, I disagree with your opinions on the DE's and the LED's. Not that I am any expert by any means, but I wholeheartedly disagree with your statement about moving to SE's. I think DE 600w would be a better idea than to run single ended bulbs honestly. Much better coverage, penetration, and efficiency. Also disagree with you strongly on the LED's, but I know that that is a heated topic so I'm not going to bring that up here, as I'm sure that we could go on and on. As far as equipment, I think my Solis-tek's and Phillips Green Power bulbs are about as good as equipment gets in the DE HPS.

But seriously, thank you for the response and feedback. I do genuinely appreciate it. Feel free to PM me about the LED's, I'd love to discuss it.





Thanks for your input. Alternating lights every two hours causing premature aging... to what? Bulbs, ballasts, light controllers, or all? I really don't care about the bulbs. Like I said, I intend to change things up quite a bit next run so I just want to make sure I can pull through this time around. As far as overlap, it is so stupidly bright in that room, certainly nothing is getting dark time. Maybe significantly less PAR, but the walls are painted semi-gloss white so the light is very intense.

It's good to hear you agree with the oscillation. I didn't come here just to hear the things that agree with my point of view, but it's good to hear that others think it's not the dumbest idea in the world. The light is so intense that I simply don't see how it would result in massive yield loss.

Great idea on the journal, I most definitely will be making one.
Click to expand...
HID lamps age most when they're cycled on and off. There's no need to switch every 2 hours, once a day will work fine. After all, the sun shines on one side of outdoor plants all morning and the other side all afternoon, how bad can it be?
 
fn217

fn217

Active Member
ttystikk said:
HID lamps age most when they're cycled on and off. There's no need to switch every 2 hours, once a day will work fine. After all, the sun shines on one side of outdoor plants all morning and the other side all afternoon, how bad can it be?
Click to expand...
Fair enough! Once a day it is. Thanks for the feedback.
 
Dr. Who

Dr. Who

Well-Known Member
fn217 said:
The ceilings are 9'. With all due respect, I disagree with your opinions on the DE's and the LED's. Not that I am any expert by any means, but I wholeheartedly disagree with your statement about moving to SE's. I think DE 600w would be a better idea than to run single ended bulbs honestly. Much better coverage, penetration, and efficiency. Also disagree with you strongly on the LED's, but I know that that is a heated topic so I'm not going to bring that up here, as I'm sure that we could go on and on. As far as equipment, I think my Solis-tek's and Phillips Green Power bulbs are about as good as equipment gets in the DE HPS.

But seriously, thank you for the response and feedback. I do genuinely appreciate it. Feel free to PM me about the LED's, I'd love to discuss it.
Click to expand...
You know not with whom you speak. That's ok though, disagree all you want, it's your choice. He's right though...

I have to wonder. Your gassing right? You do know that gassing in veg isn't really worth the return right?
Anyway. Buy gassing you know that to be truly effective with the gas. The temps and RH have to be rather high anyway?

Your 1200 ppm gassing should work best at about 91F and 80 - 85% or so RH..... When I gassed (and the rooms are still set up for it). I avoided the "sealed" room thing. Run an exhaust system set with an environmental controller that will turn on the exhaust at your set points for Temp and RH. This will shut down the gas (Gen is what I believe your using) and exhaust the room to a lower Temp and RH. This will then stop the exhaust, turn on the gas (use a ppm switch) and the whole schmear starts over.

My set points were 92 and 83.....

If you disagree with high temps and RH for gassing. You need to look into the VPD rules. Vapor pressure deficit and the best effective use of the plant to available Co2 levels at the correct degrees of heat and RH....It's damn hard to actually control those factors with a sealed room..

Anyway, this will go a long way in helping your "heat" issue while gassing!

Good luck

Oh, and yes. I agree with @odin on LED's and big plants..You don't run tall plant's, so LED 's would work for you... I do feel your fine with your DE's though. Just properly adjust how you set the room for gassing and be happier yet.

If you later decide to skip gassing. Then go LED's....
 
Colo MMJ

Colo MMJ

Well-Known Member
fn217 said:
The ceilings are 9'. With all due respect, I disagree with your opinions on the DE's and the LED's. Not that I am any expert by any means, but I wholeheartedly disagree with your statement about moving to SE's. I think DE 600w would be a better idea than to run single ended bulbs honestly. Much better coverage, penetration, and efficiency. Also disagree with you strongly on the LED's, but I know that that is a heated topic so I'm not going to bring that up here, as I'm sure that we could go on and on. As far as equipment, I think my Solis-tek's and Phillips Green Power bulbs are about as good as equipment gets in the DE HPS.

But seriously, thank you for the response and feedback. I do genuinely appreciate it. Feel free to PM me about the LED's, I'd love to discuss it.





Thanks for your input. Alternating lights every two hours causing premature aging... to what? Bulbs, ballasts, light controllers, or all? I really don't care about the bulbs. Like I said, I intend to change things up quite a bit next run so I just want to make sure I can pull through this time around. As far as overlap, it is so stupidly bright in that room, certainly nothing is getting dark time. Maybe significantly less PAR, but the walls are painted semi-gloss white so the light is very intense.

It's good to hear you agree with the oscillation. I didn't come here just to hear the things that agree with my point of view, but it's good to hear that others think it's not the dumbest idea in the world. The light is so intense that I simply don't see how it would result in massive yield loss.

Great idea on the journal, I most definitely will be making one.
Click to expand...
Dude your choices are basically more A/C or move to LEDs like QB boards. The 4 QB board set up will give you between SE and DE HPS. I would guess light spread will be better with QBs and pentaration will probably be better than DE. You have to spend some money on QBs but DE bulbs replacement is not cheap. QB Boards will reduce heat and power use - a lot.

Maybe see what the heat is when you have 50/50 DE and QB. The winter may bail you out and allow you to finish this grow and start phasing out DE. You can probably sell those DE lights on Craigslist to offset the cost of QBs.

PS: Light movers are not a huge help. If you run a 1000 watt HPS on a 6 feet run it is like running a 400 watt HPS over that area. A light mover on a shorter run is not bad but I would just buy QBs or other COBs.

Anything Yoda dude and Dr, Who tell you, you can take to the bank. They know their stuff.
 
Carolina Dream'n

Carolina Dream'n

Well-Known Member
Odin* said:
Is there a step, or two, to enter the room? Just gauging from the pic (door). If there is, your ceiling is 9’-10’. If not, we’re looking at roughly 7.5’. With DE’s, you want at least 12’, and that would be with short(ish) plants.

Plants don’t care about your “lumens per watt”, you don’t want LED’s. I’ve refrained from delving deep into the “Why” because I do not want to aid, in any way, the d-bag LED fanatics (not that all LED users are d-bags, just the “blind lunatics”). If you want a detailed “why”, I might just drop it here due to “low traffic”. Fuck that, I’ll pm you.

If you were to ask for my humble opinion, your ceilings are too low for DE’s. Drop down to single ended 1ks. Digistars are great, Galaxy Pro Amps work well also, but they require a fan for cooling, which could fail. Their “plus” is the lowest RF (w/ ferrite cord) and FCC compliance. Couple that with Ushio bulbs, and you’re not “Golden”, you’ve gone “Platinum”.

With SE 1k’s you should add an additional 36k btu split, or drop the current split, and go 5 ton. Adding another air handler to your current system (if it can handle “dual zone”) will not double cooling capability. If it’s a 3 ton condensor, you would have 18k btu’s at each handler (split), not 36k at each.
Click to expand...
I do not understand why people think you need 10-12 ft ceilings to run DE. I have ran DE with 8' ceilings with great success. 36-40" from the tops. 4 ft tall plants.
 
fn217

fn217

Active Member
Dr. Who said:
You know not with whom you speak. That's ok though, disagree all you want, it's your choice. He's right though...

I have to wonder. Your gassing right? You do know that gassing in veg isn't really worth the return right?
Anyway. Buy gassing you know that to be truly effective with the gas. The temps and RH have to be rather high anyway?

Your 1200 ppm gassing should work best at about 91F and 80 - 85% or so RH..... When I gassed (and the rooms are still set up for it). I avoided the "sealed" room thing. Run an exhaust system set with an environmental controller that will turn on the exhaust at your set points for Temp and RH. This will shut down the gas (Gen is what I believe your using) and exhaust the room to a lower Temp and RH. This will then stop the exhaust, turn on the gas (use a ppm switch) and the whole schmear starts over.

My set points were 92 and 83.....

If you disagree with high temps and RH for gassing. You need to look into the VPD rules. Vapor pressure deficit and the best effective use of the plant to available Co2 levels at the correct degrees of heat and RH....It's damn hard to actually control those factors with a sealed room..

Anyway, this will go a long way in helping your "heat" issue while gassing!

Good luck

Oh, and yes. I agree with @odin on LED's and big plants..You don't run tall plant's, so LED 's would work for you... I do feel your fine with your DE's though. Just properly adjust how you set the room for gassing and be happier yet.

If you later decide to skip gassing. Then go LED's....
Click to expand...
I most certainly don't disagree with adhering strictly to the VPD chart. I've had quite a lot of difficulty actually keeping my humidity high enough. Especially through veg. They are certainly starting to produce much more humidity being in the start of week 2 of flower, but still nowhere near 80%. I'm able to hold right around 83F at 65%, which puts me at around 13.3 kPa. Not ideal, I know. I'm doing my best on that front though.

I'm writing up my grow diary, when you see it please chime in, I'd love to hear more from you. Thanks again.

Colo MMJ said:
Dude your choices are basically more A/C or move to LEDs like QB boards. The 4 QB board set up will give you between SE and DE HPS. I would guess light spread will be better with QBs and pentaration will probably be better than DE. You have to spend some money on QBs but DE bulbs replacement is not cheap. QB Boards will reduce heat and power use - a lot.

Maybe see what the heat is when you have 50/50 DE and QB. The winter may bail you out and allow you to finish this grow and start phasing out DE. You can probably sell those DE lights on Craigslist to offset the cost of QBs.

PS: Light movers are not a huge help. If you run a 1000 watt HPS on a 6 feet run it is like running a 400 watt HPS over that area. A light mover on a shorter run is not bad but I would just buy QBs or other COBs.

Anything Yoda dude and Dr, Who tell you, you can take to the bank. They know their stuff.
Click to expand...
By QB's, I'm guessing quantum boards? I have thought of the quantum boards, although I'll need to research them vs a COB setup. Seems a 1000w equivalent (4x4) on both quantum boards and COB's will be roughly the same price ($~1000). I'll likely be moving to a 50/50 LED/DE setup in the next run. You are right, I am just trying to make it through to winter. Week 11 is early December, so I think I should be alright, although my night time temps here are very low and it isn't helping shit (My room is incredibly well sealed and insulated).

Craigslist around my area is pretty dead. Which if you knew where I was, would surprise the hell out of you. Grow central and I can't sell my 10" and 12" Max Fans at less than half retail, among other equipment. But yes, I definitely can recover some funds.

Thanks for the input.
 
Colo MMJ

Colo MMJ

Well-Known Member
fn217 said:
I most certainly don't disagree with adhering strictly to the VPD chart. I've had quite a lot of difficulty actually keeping my humidity high enough. Especially through veg. They are certainly starting to produce much more humidity being in the start of week 2 of flower, but still nowhere near 80%. I'm able to hold right around 83F at 65%, which puts me at around 13.3 kPa. Not ideal, I know. I'm doing my best on that front though.

I'm writing up my grow diary, when you see it please chime in, I'd love to hear more from you. Thanks again.



By QB's, I'm guessing quantum boards? I have thought of the quantum boards, although I'll need to research them vs a COB setup. Seems a 1000w equivalent (4x4) on both quantum boards and COB's will be roughly the same price ($~1000). I'll likely be moving to a 50/50 LED/DE setup in the next run. You are right, I am just trying to make it through to winter. Week 11 is early December, so I think I should be alright, although my night time temps here are very low and it isn't helping shit (My room is incredibly well sealed and insulated).

Craigslist around my area is pretty dead. Which if you knew where I was, would surprise the hell out of you. Grow central and I can't sell my 10" and 12" Max Fans at less than half retail, among other equipment. But yes, I definitely can recover some funds.

Thanks for the input.
Click to expand...
QB XL's unassembled (connect a few wires and screws) $340 each x 2 = $680. This will get you between a SE HPS and DE. Throw in a fifth single board and you are probably close to a DE.

https://growerslights.com/products/horticulture-lighting-group-260-watt-xl-quantum-board-led-kit

If you are anywhere near the mtns in CO - it gets cold at night in the winter. Sucking in some below zero air will cool things off. I am not sure you want to do that.

Hopefully you can knock down 2 grows in winter to have money to phase out some DEs.
https://growerslights.com/products/horticulture-lighting-group-260-watt-xl-quantum-board-led-kit
 
fn217

fn217

Active Member
Colo MMJ said:
QB XL's unassembled (connect a few wires and screws) $340 each x 2 = $680. This will get you between a SE HPS and DE. Throw in a fifth single board and you are probably close to a DE.

https://growerslights.com/products/horticulture-lighting-group-260-watt-xl-quantum-board-led-kit

If you are anywhere near the mtns in CO - it gets cold at night in the winter. Sucking in some below zero air will cool things off. I am not sure you want to do that.

Hopefully you can knock down 2 grows in winter to have money to phase out some DEs.
https://growerslights.com/products/horticulture-lighting-group-260-watt-xl-quantum-board-led-kit
Click to expand...
Thanks for sharing. My night time temps will be in the 50's and high-mid 40's into winter. I may be able to knock out another grow (after this one finishes) before Spring, but I'll likely try to phase in LED sooner and change up my set up significantly. Pop your head into my grow thread once it's up! I'd love to hear more of your thoughts.
Why are people going quantum over COB's these days?
 
Colo MMJ

Colo MMJ

Well-Known Member
fn217 said:
Thanks for sharing. My night time temps will be in the 50's and high-mid 40's into winter. I may be able to knock out another grow (after this one finishes) before Spring, but I'll likely try to phase in LED sooner and change up my set up significantly. Pop your head into my grow thread once it's up! I'd love to hear more of your thoughts.
Why are people going quantum over COB's these days?
Click to expand...
I am no expert. I am looking to migrate HPS to QB. I was waiting to see if QBs can get the weight. It seems they can. The Grizzly Adams avatar guy seems to pull big numbers. Other options are LED diodes strips using Samsung diodes like QB's Samsung diodes.

I think QBs are a bit cooler than COBs and also disperse the light better than COBs.
Supposedly QB boards run at about 76 deg F which is crazy cool. One local grow store had an expensive brand that is essentially the same as QBs. I held my hand up to it and they were incredibly cool.

Check out Growmau5 stuff on YouTube though he seems to like that water cooled LED brand. nice but really expensive. He did some QB builds too.

You may need to spend some bucks but the electricity savings are worth it. A 15x30 room packed with plants is big leagues.
 
fn217

fn217

Active Member
Colo MMJ said:
I am no expert. I am looking to migrate HPS to QB. I was waiting to see if QBs can get the weight. It seems they can. The Grizzly Adams avatar guy seems to pull big numbers. Other options are LED diodes strips using Samsung diodes like QB's Samsung diodes.

I think QBs are a bit cooler than COBs and also disperse the light better than COBs.
Supposedly QB boards run at about 76 deg F which is crazy cool. One local grow store had an expensive brand that is essentially the same as QBs. I held my hand up to it and they were incredibly cool.

Check out Growmau5 stuff on YouTube though he seems to like that water cooled LED brand. nice but really expensive. He did some QB builds too.

You may need to spend some bucks but the electricity savings are worth it. A 15x30 room packed with plants is big leagues.
Click to expand...
Yep, I've gone deep into Growmau5's content. I've literally watched every video, and most of the lives streams. The ChilLED tech lights are insanely expensive, but they are a small company so that's to be expected.

I'll definitely look into the QB's. Do you have a link to that grow log?
 
Colo MMJ

Colo MMJ

Well-Known Member
fn217 said:
Yep, I've gone deep into Growmau5's content. I've literally watched every video, and most of the lives streams. The ChilLED tech lights are insanely expensive, but they are a small company so that's to be expected.

I'll definitely look into the QB's. Do you have a link to that grow log?
Click to expand...
it might be this one
https://www.rollitup.org/t/club-quantum-board.935663/page-11#post-13438349

It is ChaosHunter aka Grizzly Adams avatar. He is running a smaller 175 watt QB Board setup and pulling big numbers. You can ask him in the thread. He is a good dude.
 
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