Seedlings Continue Dying

uncle_blaze · Oct 2, 2014

I am not an expert grower by no means but not a complete novice either. I have had several successful crops in the past three years but not at my current home. I currently have one Great White Shark and one Chemdawg along with one assorted unknown strain from a seed bank. The first two were given to me by a friend who is an expert grower as well as a garden supply store owner. This is the fourth attempt this year to have a successful crop with no luck. The seeds germinate beautifully and grow to approximately 1.5 to 2 inches and begin to die. Here is my set up: Two 3 gal. eco mesh pots, new Roots Organics soil that has never been stored where the possibility of insect infestation exists, a top layer of GnatNix a pulverized glass topping to prevent insects as well as a safe insecticide called DoktorDoom which I spray once or twice a week for good measures to ensure no insects (as does my friend and swears by it). Two new 125 watt cfl grow lamps in which I have used in the past for successful vegetation. The temperature stays between 75 to 80 degrees and the humidity is controlled as well and stays between 65 to 80 % humidity. Lights on 24/7. Yesterday (10-1-14) I added General Hydroponics RapidStart root enhancer along with General Hydroponics FloraDuo part "A" 5-0-6 and part "B" 1-5-4. The mixture of these three were 35 drops of the root enhancer and one tea spoon of each of the FloraDuo. I have a fan blowing to create a gentle breeze as well as great air flow for proper respiration. I sticky insect pads all around and have no evidence of insect. I keep the room clean. Since I grow organic I do not check the PH levels, I was advised by my friend that PH levels are not important if growing organically as he does. Someone please help. Thanks

mmjmon · Oct 2, 2014

Try starting off in potting soil first. Don't over water. You can transplant after they grow a bit. Also, too young for the nutes.

uncle_blaze · Oct 2, 2014

Thank you so much for your quick response. This is my fourth attempt this year each time just two plants. These current two started turning about two weeks ago when they were about three weeks old. it wasn't until yesterday that I added the nutes. In the earlier attempts this year I once started them in a seed starter medium in small solo cups then transplanted at about three weeks a week later they did the same. I have started seeds initially in quality soil with same outcomes. The soil has the necessary nutes for several weeks normally, so the adding of the nutes yesterday was to see if they were hungry, they were already looking bad. I have watered heavy to ensure flushing of the possibility too many nutes but not over water to hurt the plants. This sounds crazy but I'm starting to think my room cursed.

eekje · Oct 2, 2014

first 2-3 weeks dont give any nutes. And yes organically doesn't require PH corrections ONLY IF YOUR TAPWATER IS PH 7.5 OR LOWER!... everything above this level gives plants nute lockouts. Find a way to measure your tapwater then decide if organics is for you, if your tapwater's PH is too high, you can still grow organic by correcting your tapwater just a very tiny bit, not down to 6 because in that case you'll kill your medium bacterial flora.

az2000 · Oct 2, 2014

uncle_blaze said:
Since I grow organic I do not check the PH levels, I was advised by my friend that PH levels are not important if growing organically as he does.

I'd lean toward ph being a problem. Measure your runoff ph (maybe get a $50 Control Wizard Accurate 8 ph probe).

I'd start in seedling-size containers (18 oz), transplant to 1gal, then 3 or 5 gal. It's hard to water regularly and not overwater when the container is so out of proportion to the plant. (I start in 3gal with autoflowers and the first 3 weeks are challenging.).

I'd switch to something simpler. Like, Jack's Classic all-purpose throughout the grow. Use a soil with minimal nutrients built into it.

That last suggestion may not be necessary. But, I'd try to eliminate the variables.

OUTDOOR FARMER · Oct 2, 2014

by chance is it possible to much @ seedling stage all the stuff your giving them

uncle_blaze · Oct 2, 2014

eekje said:
first 2-3 weeks dont give any nutes. And yes organically doesn't require PH corrections ONLY IF YOUR TAPWATER IS PH 7.5 OR LOWER!... everything above this level gives plants nute lockouts. Find a way to measure your tapwater then decide if organics is for you, if your tapwater's PH is too high, you can still grow organic by correcting your tapwater just a very tiny bit, not down to 6 because in that case you'll kill your medium bacterial flora.

my next move was checking the PH. but I use bottled distilled water, do I still need to check the PH ? and yesterday was the first time I have ever gave nutes this early even though they are 5 weeks old. thank you

uncle_blaze · Oct 2, 2014

az2000 said:
I'd lean toward ph being a problem. Measure your runoff ph (maybe get a $50 Control Wizard Accurate 8 ph probe).

I'd start in seedling-size containers (18 oz), transplant to 1gal, then 3 or 5 gal. It's hard to water regularly and not overwater when the container is so out of proportion to the plant. (I start in 3gal with autoflowers and the first 3 weeks are challenging.).

I'd switch to something simpler. Like, Jack's Classic all-purpose throughout the grow. Use a soil with minimal nutrients built into it.

That last suggestion may not be necessary. But, I'd try to eliminate the variables.

I know what your saying its got to be the PH because these seedlings were already looking bad before I even considered the nutes. And I a gradual increase in container size is what ive always heard people doing, but the success in the past I would start out in the same pot from start to finish but for some reason Ive been unable to have success either way. Im starting to think my new house in cursed or something. but its not cool. Thank you I really appreciate your knowledge.

az2000 · Oct 2, 2014

uncle_blaze said:
my next move was checking the PH. but I use bottled distilled water, do I still need to check the PH ? and yesterday was the first time I have ever gave nutes this early even though they are 5 weeks old.

Pure water has a weak ph. I don't think it would throw your soil ph off too much. It doesn't have a high ppm. A drop of phup/down moves it far more than a drop in high ppm water (after adding nutrients). It's going to equalize to your soil's ph-affecting components more than those components will equalize to the water's ph. But, doing it for 5 weeks could have a cumulative effect.

When you say "new house" do you mean newly built? If so, I wonder if building materials could be off-gassing unhealthy things.

Waiting 5 weeks to give nutes is probably too long unless the soil has a lot. The seedlings didn't look nute burned. More deficient. If your ph is too high that will lockout nutes. Withholding nutes compounds the problem. Also, nutrients tend to acidify the soil. If they're light it compounds the problem.

I like this Etekcity ph meter. (<<link). Cheap, comes with calibration solution. I have a spare as a backup. Ships from Hong Kong so it takes awhile to receive. Maybe your friend has a meter you can use? (You'll need storage solution too. And probe cleaning solution. Using these things my meters rarely need calibration. They've been pretty reliable.).

I really like the soil probe I mentioned. When I struggled with acidic soil it helped me watch what was happening. Maybe not accurate like testing water with a pen. But, I could see a trend higher/lower. Just like measuring runoff ph. (Not accurate, but it shows a trend over time.). I wouldn't waste time with either when your nutes/soil are dialed in. But, when starting with new nutes or soil, I think it helps to have that info if/when a problem arises.

furnz · Oct 2, 2014

If your completely soaking pots that size with that small of seedlings?, then I'd say over watered..
Soil would most likely stay wet way too long.
What have the roots looked like in the dead seedlings?

uncle_blaze · Oct 2, 2014

az2000 said:
Pure water has a weak ph. I don't think it would throw your soil ph off too much. It doesn't have a high ppm. A drop of phup/down moves it far more than a drop in high ppm water (after adding nutrients). It's going to equalize to your soil's ph-affecting components more than those components will equalize to the water's ph. But, doing it for 5 weeks could have a cumulative effect.

When you say "new house" do you mean newly built? If so, I wonder if building materials could be off-gassing unhealthy things.

Waiting 5 weeks to give nutes is probably too long unless the soil has a lot. The seedlings didn't look nute burned. More deficient. If your ph is too high that will lockout nutes. Withholding nutes compounds the problem. Also, nutrients tend to acidify the soil. If they're light it compounds the problem.

I like this Etekcity ph meter. (<<link). Cheap, comes with calibration solution. I have a spare as a backup. Ships from Hong Kong so it takes awhile to receive. Maybe your friend has a meter you can use? (You'll need storage solution too. And probe cleaning solution. Using these things my meters rarely need calibration. They've been pretty reliable.).

I really like the soil probe I mentioned. When I struggled with acidic soil it helped me watch what was happening. Maybe not accurate like testing water with a pen. But, I could see a trend higher/lower. Just like measuring runoff ph. (Not accurate, but it shows a trend over time.). I wouldn't waste time with either when your nutes/soil are dialed in. But, when starting with new nutes or soil, I think it helps to have that info if/when a problem arises.

What kind of water would you suggest ? and just to clarify you think they look nutrient deficient ? and I need to check the PH ? thanks for your help

uncle_blaze · Oct 2, 2014

furnz said:
If your completely soaking pots that size with that small of seedlings?, then I'd say over watered..
Soil would most likely stay wet way too long.
What have the roots looked like in the dead seedlings?

That's a possibility, I normally water about every 4 days. And I have never really looked at the roots, what should I look for if the current ones die ?

az2000 · Oct 2, 2014

uncle_blaze said:
What kind of water would you suggest ? and just to clarify you think they look nutrient deficient ? and I need to check the PH ? thanks for your help

I use RO water sold at the dispensing machine. They don't look burnt to me. If you have a high ph that will cause deficiency. Not feeding would be more of the same. (Not that feeding when there is a ph-related lockout is a good idea. You just end up with too much nutrient the plant can't use. But, feeding has the side effect of acidifying the soil. So, if you don't feed for 5 weeks, that could contribute to your high ph, if that's indeed the problem. Depends on how much nutrient is in the soil out of the bag. I'm not familiar with GO. You could call and talk to someone.).

furnz · Oct 2, 2014

Look for root rot, small stunted root growth.
A plant that small, I think there's a small chance of it using up all that water in that pot and drying out enough to water every 4 days.
If they don't pull through, I recommend starting the next seedlings off in a solo or 4x4" typical square pot. It'll make it a lot harder to over water.
I would also probably cut the Roots soil with something like promix or similar for the seedlings' cups/pots.

uncle_blaze · Oct 3, 2014

az2000 said:
I use RO water sold at the dispensing machine. They don't look burnt to me. If you have a high ph that will cause deficiency. Not feeding would be more of the same. (Not that feeding when there is a ph-related lockout is a good idea. You just end up with too much nutrient the plant can't use. But, feeding has the side effect of acidifying the soil. So, if you don't feed for 5 weeks, that could contribute to your high ph, if that's indeed the problem. Depends on how much nutrient is in the soil out of the bag. I'm not familiar with GO. You could call and talk to someone.).

Thank you for your advice. this is just a first for me. I have always had good luck starting off with high quality soil and it took them into flowering. And also, on the bottled gallon distilled water I use, I always get the distilled water that the label say's distilled by reverse osmosis. Is this the same as the water from the dispensers like you use ? Roots Organics by Aurora innovations is the soil I use. If you have time and don't mind would you google that soil and read the nutes in it and give me your opinion on it ? Thanks

uncle_blaze · Oct 3, 2014

furnz said:
Look for root rot, small stunted root growth.
A plant that small, I think there's a small chance of it using up all that water in that pot and drying out enough to water every 4 days.
If they don't pull through, I recommend starting the next seedlings off in a solo or 4x4" typical square pot. It'll make it a lot harder to over water.
I would also probably cut the Roots soil with something like promix or similar for the seedlings' cups/pots.

So by using the promix it's like watering the strength of the soil so to speak ? Last nite I started to new seeds in solo cups with good drain hole cut in the bottom, also in the solo cup I put a little soil in the bottom a layer of GnatNix that pulverized glass material used to prevent gnats from penetrating the soil then the rest the Roots soil and another layer of the GnatNix on top. I do all I can do to prevent gnats because ive had them in the past and they are horrible little creatures.

furnz · Oct 3, 2014

Yea, I've seen and heard of roots burning seedlings at times (strain dependent) and there's really no need for that hot of soil as a seedling.
I'm not really sure about the gnat stuff, seems like that on the top and bottom wouldn't really let the soil breathe.
I'd keep everything as simple as you can, but if bugs are hurting your plants that bad then do what you have to do.
Also I wouldn't think you would need to feed for at least 3 weeks - a month, definitely not if you starting in a smaller pot then transplanting.

uncle_blaze · Oct 3, 2014

furnz said:
Yea, I've seen and heard of roots burning seedlings at times (strain dependent) and there's really no need for that hot of soil as a seedling.
I'm not really sure about the gnat stuff, seems like that on the top and bottom wouldn't really let the soil breathe.
I'd keep everything as simple as you can, but if bugs are hurting your plants that bad then do what you have to do.
Also I wouldn't think you would need to feed for at least 3 weeks - a month, definitely not if you starting in a smaller pot then transplanting.

I know some strains are harder to grow than others, so unless your an expert and know for a fact the strain there's no way of telling if the soil is too hot ? And on the possibility of the soil not breathing good enough, Ive always thought that the perlite mixed in creates adequate air pockets, is that true ?

furnz · Oct 3, 2014

Your right there is noway to tell what strain is nute sensitive unless you have experience with that strain specifically or have done your research on that strain.
That's why I wouldn't use roots organic for seedlings if you don't know if you have a strain that can handle it.
Why risk it when there's no need to have that amount of nutes in the soil.
There's a reason why most lines of soil have a soil less or seedling mix.

uncle_blaze · Oct 3, 2014

furnz said:
Your right there is noway to tell what strain is nute sensitive unless you have experience with that strain specifically or have done your research on that strain.
That's why I wouldn't use roots organic for seedlings if you don't know if you have a strain that can handle it.
Why risk it when there's no need to have that amount of nutes in the soil.

Yea your absolutely right. I really appreciate your help. I'm gonna keep experimenting until I get it right. any more suggestions please send em my way. Thanks again

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