Sex,drugs,and God is how the ancient Romans rolled.

Dr Kynes

Dr Kynes

Well-Known Member
roman bacchanalia were in praise of Bacchus, worship of Juno, the Lares (numinous household gods) Jupiter, and the rest of the pantheon were solemn affairs, with only ceremonial imbibing of watered wine and sanctified bread and meat.

members of the cult of Bacchus were not part of polite society even among the plebs, and those who were involved generally kept it on the Low Low.

the excesses and madness of the Claudians (like Caligula) were in direct violation of tradition, and law. this was NOT the everyday roman religious rite, and only the emperor could get away with that shit in public.

even a proconsul couldnt get away with such activities during the republic, and if they got caught engaging in moral turpitude it was a tremendous scandal and disgrace.

the rumours of the moral failings of Lucius Cornelius Sulla nearly ended his political career and would have cost him his position, even when he was at the height of his power.

Rome was host to a wide array of foreign cults and religions which were almost always practiced as secret societies or Mystery Cults, with only the initiated allowed to know what goes on behind closed doors. unfortunately the salacious claims of hollywood, and the christian churches have piled shitloads of rumour, speculation and outright lies onto the traditional Roman religious practices, just like the religions of the Celts, Gauls, Picts, Aztecs, Mayans, Zoroastrians, Jews, Gnostics, Esseins (authors of the dead sea scrolls) and pretty much every non-christian religion or "heretical" sect they wish to defame.
 
Dr Kynes

Dr Kynes

Well-Known Member
BarnBuster said:
TV series "Spartacus" surprised me with this.
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?? i have not seen, what surprised you?

mixed bathing?
the taboo on homosexual behavior (but oddly not of homosexuals...)?
the rather strict sumptuary laws?
the bizarrely counter-intuitive moral code which seems ass backwards by our standards?

im assuming this show was historically accurate, but not having seen it, i dunno.

in reality, roman morality was strict and highly regimented, though many things we would be shocked at were commonplace (like a shared communal sponge on a stick for wiping your ass, with only cursory rinsing between uses), and many things we take for granted would appall a roman (like kissing in public).
 
BarnBuster

BarnBuster

Virtually Unknown Member
Perhaps not historically accurate. Open but reserved homosexual behavior among gladiators (kissing) although more so as series progresses. Other gladiators do not seem offended or surprised. First few seasons take place in the ludus. One scene in particular showed the lanista (master?) having sex with his wife and as he appears close to finishing he orders the male slave who was in the same room "a cock in the ass, I think", as a command. Surprised me. Realistic combat scenes. Lots of gore.

First couple of seasons are out on DVD, into 3rd season now I think. STARZ channel.
 
Dr Kynes

Dr Kynes

Well-Known Member
BarnBuster said:
Perhaps not historically accurate. Open but reserved homosexual behavior among gladiators (kissing) although more so as series progresses. Other gladiators do not seem offended or surprised. First few seasons take place in the ludus. One scene in particular showed the lanista (master?) having sex with his wife and as he appears close to finishing he orders the male slave who was in the same room "a cock in the ass, I think", as a command. Surprised me. Realistic combat scenes. Lots of gore.

First couple of seasons are out on DVD, into 3rd season now I think. STARZ channel.
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if it is set within the scope of the slave revolt and the third servile war, yeah, not so much.

republican romans had a strict moral code, and violators of that code found themselves put on the outside of society.

most gladiators were foreigners, not romans, though a few roman citizens were sold into the gladiator schools for debts, or crimes, and a few sold themselves into servitude as gladiators for the glory, but such flagrant displays of behavior romans viewed as a vice of the greeks would be intolerable except perhaps in the provinces.

Gladiators were NOT kept in prisons, as we would recognize them, and they were not prone to becoming "prison gay", since many slaveholders would pay good coin for a chance to breed their female slaves with a gladiator, particularly one who was a winner.

Gladiators were kept more like prized race horses, and the superstars got more tail than a toilet seat. some were even what we might call giggolos, hired to stick it to ladies who paid well for the privilege, usually when their husbands were shooting blanks or failing to get stiff. that was all kept very quiet, and it was NOT common.

further during the republic, gladiators did NOT fight to the death. they "fought" using techniques familiar to professional wrestlers, action movie stars and stunt men, delivering big grandiose moves, with only a small chance of injury. only a fool would send his prized slaves out to die in a pit fight. Gladiatorial games were ceremonial, often being hired for funerary games to celebrate and re-enact the triumphs of deceased notable personages. VERY rarely criminals would be pitted against select gladiators as a form of execution, but that was not the norm until the end of the republic.

it wasnt until the republic fell, and the emperors were enthroned that gladiatorial fights became a deadly spectacle and bloodsport for the plebs.
 
Dalek Supreme

Dalek Supreme

Well-Known Member
Dr Kynes said:
if it is set within the scope of the slave revolt and the third servile war, yeah, not so much.

republican romans had a strict moral code, and violators of that code found themselves put on the outside of society.

most gladiators were foreigners, not romans, though a few roman citizens were sold into the gladiator schools for debts, or crimes, and a few sold themselves into servitude as gladiators for the glory, but such flagrant displays of behavior romans viewed as a vice of the greeks would be intolerable except perhaps in the provinces.

Gladiators were NOT kept in prisons, as we would recognize them, and they were not prone to becoming "prison gay", since many slaveholders would pay good coin for a chance to breed their female slaves with a gladiator, particularly one who was a winner.

Gladiators were kept more like prized race horses, and the superstars got more tail than a toilet seat. some were even what we might call giggolos, hired to stick it to ladies who paid well for the privilege, usually when their husbands were shooting blanks or failing to get stiff. that was all kept very quiet, and it was NOT common.

further during the republic, gladiators did NOT fight to the death. they "fought" using techniques familiar to professional wrestlers, action movie stars and stunt men, delivering big grandiose moves, with only a small chance of injury. only a fool would send his prized slaves out to die in a pit fight. Gladiatorial games were ceremonial, often being hired for funerary games to celebrate and re-enact the triumphs of deceased notable personages. VERY rarely criminals would be pitted against select gladiators as a form of execution, but that was not the norm until the end of the republic.

it wasnt until the republic fell, and the emperors were enthroned that gladiatorial fights became a deadly spectacle and bloodsport for the plebs.
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Thank you Dr Kynes for your informative input.

Yes when the Germanic (Barbarian) tribes cut off the western part of the empire that's when things got seedy so to speak.I heard at this time with trade cut off to Rome people were bidding on the corpses of slain gladiators,but I do not know if that is true.Desperate times for a collapsing empire that infighting,increasing soldier wages,and over reaching caused.
 
mindphuk

mindphuk

Well-Known Member
Dr Kynes said:
further during the republic, gladiators did NOT fight to the death. they "fought" using techniques familiar to professional wrestlers, action movie stars and stunt men, delivering big grandiose moves, with only a small chance of injury.
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Link?


This goes against not only actual written descriptions but excavation of gladiatorial grave sites all around the Roman world. Sure, not every bout ended in death, but to claim that they did not fight using potentially lethal forms of combat needs some evidentiary support.

https://www.google.com/search?q=forensics+of+gladiators&rlz=1C1SAVI_enUS519US519&aq=f&oq=forensics+of+gladiators&aqs=chrome.0.57.6342&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8#hl=en&rlz=1C1SAVI_enUS519US519&sclient=psy-ab&q=excavation+of+of+gladiator&oq=excavation+of+of+gladiator&gs_l=serp.3...10616.10616.1.10871.1.0.1.0.0.0.0.0..0.0...0.0...1c.1.7.psy-ab.7ZS40_h9L9M&pbx=1&bav=on.2,or.r_cp.r_qf.&fp=bd8c6995ebbc6efd&biw=1366&bih=643
 
Dalek Supreme

Dalek Supreme

Well-Known Member
mindphuk said:
Link?


This goes against not only actual written descriptions but excavation of gladiatorial grave sites all around the Roman world. Sure, not every bout ended in death, but to claim that they did not fight using potentially lethal forms of combat needs some evidentiary support.

https://www.google.com/search?q=forensics+of+gladiators&rlz=1C1SAVI_enUS519US519&aq=f&oq=forensics+of+gladiators&aqs=chrome.0.57.6342&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8#hl=en&rlz=1C1SAVI_enUS519US519&sclient=psy-ab&q=excavation+of+of+gladiator&oq=excavation+of+of+gladiator&gs_l=serp.3...10616.10616.1.10871.1.0.1.0.0.0.0.0..0.0...0.0...1c.1.7.psy-ab.7ZS40_h9L9M&pbx=1&bav=on.2,or.r_cp.r_qf.&fp=bd8c6995ebbc6efd&biw=1366&bih=643
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I found this vid very informative on gladiator life.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lgn0gUhOh84
 
Dr Kynes

Dr Kynes

Well-Known Member
mindphuk said:
Link?


This goes against not only actual written descriptions but excavation of gladiatorial grave sites all around the Roman world. Sure, not every bout ended in death, but to claim that they did not fight using potentially lethal forms of combat needs some evidentiary support.

https://www.google.com/search?q=forensics+of+gladiators&rlz=1C1SAVI_enUS519US519&aq=f&oq=forensics+of+gladiators&aqs=chrome.0.57.6342&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8#hl=en&rlz=1C1SAVI_enUS519US519&sclient=psy-ab&q=excavation+of+of+gladiator&oq=excavation+of+of+gladiator&gs_l=serp.3...10616.10616.1.10871.1.0.1.0.0.0.0.0..0.0...0.0...1c.1.7.psy-ab.7ZS40_h9L9M&pbx=1&bav=on.2,or.r_cp.r_qf.&fp=bd8c6995ebbc6efd&biw=1366&bih=643
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thats an interesting link, but as the reamains from york were dated to the first century, when the republic had failed and emperors ruled. emperors used the spectacle to amuse the populace and dispose of dissidents, criminals and prisoners, while during the republic, gladiator were in fact mainly hired for funerary games to celebrate and re-enact the lives and triumphs of the deceased, not as a sacrifice to the dead as some "scholars" have asserted.

most of the information on roman ritual and religion has been tainted by the christian re-imagining, but that narrative fails when you read accounts from the contemporary authors.

only those individuals condemned to die "ad gladium" (by the sword) were killed deliberately, and the keeper of a gladiator went to great lengths to ensure that they did NOT die.

Galen of Pergamon (the single most important surgeon of the pre-renaissance) got his start as the on call physician for a gladiatorial school, and eventually became the physician of the emperor Commodus, and later Septimus Severus. hardly the treatement one expects for those doomed to die for the amusement of the crowd.

his commentaries describe the wounds received by the gladiators under his care, and they were generally LESS severe (but more bloody due to the blades and spears) than the injuries sustained in the WWF ring. at least until the rise of the imperial state

no first hand accounts survive to detail the training methods of gladiators, but the wounds described by Galen were NOT the wounds one would find on a battlefield of the time, but rather the sort received in military training, and bar fights.

i can only point you to the scholarly work on the issue, and it disagrees with the popular perception.

but of course, then theres the "ad gladium" executions...

http://www.eyewitnesstohistory.com/gladiators.htm

this account is under the reign of caligula, so, it should not be considered the standard, and the combat herein described is certainly the form of execution, not the highly trained and valued professional gladiator competitions. it's a pit fight, not gladiatorial games.

sorting out the jumble is not easy, and it's also not salacious. i was probably the only person awake during the course on roman history i took, but then, im weird. the Professor (he was awesome) detailed a huge assortment of historical data which proved to my satisfaction that despite the popular claims, absurd action movies and hilariously off the mark "based on a true story" fictions of the popular media, gladiators were prized, and some people volunteered for the job, despite the requirement that you be a slave.
 
mindphuk

mindphuk

Well-Known Member
My fault. I misread your comment about Republic vs. Imperial Rome. Most of what I learned was from scholarly sources, however, I do remember there being a lot of questions about a lot of the details. I just didn't realize you were referring to a specific time period. Sorry for doubting.
 
Dalek Supreme

Dalek Supreme

Well-Known Member
mindphuk said:
Seen it. Very cool documentary.
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Cool....Of course I liked it too.

You just might? Find this interesting when you have a moment of spare time.

http://forum.grasscity.com/pandoras-box/1201905-religion-has-get-f-ck-out-here.html

"History is full of people who out fear,or ignorrance,or the lust for power,have destroyed treasures of umeasureable value.Wich truelly belong to all of us.We MUST not let it happen again"......Carl Sagan

"What wonders were in the books of berossus?"......Carl Sagan
 
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