Sifting through prop 19's ashes

So I've been mulling over the prop 19 aftermath. I was a hopeful supporter.
But it was up to the California voters. Not bitter, just sad this opportunity was tossed aside.

But is this all negative? Is there some hope to salvaged here?
I believe there is, though i do understand the negative mood.

Will the federal hammer come crashing down? Probably not, the same realities face DEA and federal enforcement.
MJ growing/use go well beyond any practical federal solutions, and they know it.
The justice department was plainly not happy with prop 19 progress. They were afraid it might pass.
That it didn't is a temporary situation, and I believe this is understood. This was 1 battle, not the war.

As long as federal law remains so skewed from reality, it invites more initiatives. And i believe this is also understood
Pressure is building for federal rescheduling. This is not going to be legalization, but a realistic step forward.
The large MMJ factories in the works seem to be part of this game.
Scuttlebutt is they will challenge federal MJ law on the 'no accepted medical use'.
And NY is very much in play for MMJ this year. No guarantees, but the MMJ bill made it through the legislative process once.
It was killed only because of a budget battle and a lame duck governor.

A battle may have been lost, but this war will go on.

Bottom line. Cali just told the government this gen. doesnt want MJ legal. Thanks for playing let your kids know they get the next chance and try not to piss into the wind this time.

1gamma45 said:

Bottom line. Cali just told the government this gen. doesnt want MJ legal. Thanks for playing let your kids know they get the next chance and try not to piss into the wind this time.

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i understand the feeling here, but i think it's a bit more gray
as some prop 19 opponents were fond of pointing out, MJ was pretty much legal in California, at least in the practical sense
dispensaries continue to expand in numbers, even with the bans(last count anyways)

The thing is its not more gray and thats the problem.

Prop 19 was what the Government was willing to give. Was it a great plan no was it everything we all wanted no. But it was the best that they were willing to give to you. Because it didnt pass cali basicly said to the government if we cant have it our way we dont want it all. So they are now going to be more then happy to throw it right back in everyone face everytime it comes up again. Well you know what happened with porp 19 and thats all they need to say. Cali just gave the Governemnt all the ammo it will need for years to shoot down anything else about legalizing simply all they have to say is the people dont want it legal and because what happened with prop 19 they are right and they have won.

what if it passed and the feds decided to enforce their laws to the fullest and made a point to do so,putting even medical use in danger the feds could and would do thisif we push too hard too fast, and the law needs to have strict bans agiast big corps taking over and plant or #age maxxes that would be enforceible or we will all be smoken Mari with a phillip moris stamp and chemicals.

My point of view anyways

1gamma45 said:

The thing is its not more gray and thats the problem.

Prop 19 was what the Government was willing to give. Was it a great plan no was it everything we all wanted no. But it was the best that they were willing to give to you. Because it didnt pass cali basicly said to the government if we cant have it our way we dont want it all. So they are now going to be more then happy to throw it right back in everyone face everytime it comes up again. Well you know what happened with porp 19 and thats all they need to say. Cali just gave the Governemnt all the ammo it will need for years to shoot down anything else about legalizing simply all they have to say is the people dont want it legal and because what happened with prop 19 they are right and they have won.

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i can't really argue with your basic points, it was not a good result
but i think progress will still happen, just not in California by voter initiatives

My understanding of Fed vs state law is that state out weighs fed untill it breaks into fed law. What I mean is if a state says we are passing a law to make MJ legal. The feds cant come in and say no you cant. They also cant come in the state and start inforcing fed law cause the state making it legal out weighs it. however if you start growing and moving it accross state lines then they will have the ablity to inforce fed law in that state.

The other side of that coin is if the feds get involved and try and make an exmaple of people in a state were it is made legal they will be cutting the money flow to the fed government and we all know that just isnt going to happen.

An example of this is the guy that run oakstardamn and the MMJ shopps around that area. He payed 300,000$ in State take and over 600,000$ in fed tax on his shops in 2008. That almost 1 million dollars of income to the state and feds from 1 person with a few shops. Now picture that kinda tax income from a few thousand people with shops and tell me the feds are going do something other then sit back and count the money.

1gamma45 said:

My understanding of Fed vs state law is that state out weighs fed untill it breaks into fed law. What I mean is if a state says we are passing a law to make MJ legal. The feds cant come in and say no you cant. They also cant come in the state and start inforcing fed law cause the state making it legal out weighs it. however if you start growing and moving it accross state lines then they will have the ablity to inforce fed law in that state.

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so you would think if the Constitution was actually followed
this was the ball buster when the Supreme Court weighed in on MMJ
basically, they said federal law is the supreme law of the land and they quoted the section about regulating interstate commerce
but they didn't limit DEA's power to come in and arrest growers/dispensaries staying within state boundaries
which was utterly bogus in my opinion
but i agree completely with you point of view, that's the way the constitution was written

1gamma45 said:

The thing is its not more gray and thats the problem.

Prop 19 was what the Government was willing to give.

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No dude. It wasn't. The government didn't write prop 19. Prop 19 was something non-smokers could potentially support. You can't just get a ballot measure passed because a minority of people think it's great. You need to appeal to everyone. The perceived taxing/controls of prop 19 appealed to people who don't care about legalization and would have voted against legalization without taxing/regulating.

Prop 19 was potentially what the people of California were willing to give, not the government. The government unanimously strongly objected to prop 19.

growone said:

i understand the feeling here, but i think it's a bit more gray
as some prop 19 opponents were fond of pointing out, MJ was pretty much legal in California, at least in the practical sense
dispensaries continue to expand in numbers, even with the bans(last count anyways)

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It's not a bit more of a grey area as far as average people not involved in the medical cannabis community are concerned. As far as California and the rest of the country are concerned we just said we want to continue prohibition. I know that's not how people here see it, but it is how people generally see this. Those are the people who count here because those are the minds that need to be changed.

As far as the general population is concerned we just all said "keep prohibition!". It's black and white. That is the message we sent. This is why I've been saying all along, we can't be consumed by the details. We just put the breaks on ending prohibition.

i repeat...when are we going to stop supporting drug dealers and start supporting schools!

My understanding is this is a government for the people by the people? And I was speaking in state governemnt terms. And yes it was what they were willing to give. Agreed it was something that non smokers could support and could appeal to peopel that dont care about it being legal. And lets be honest here the Fed only object to it publicly so they can not be accused in any way shape or form of supporting the one thing that can hurt so many big buisnesses and there support of the people making the votes in the capital.

Mind you they have no objections to collecting fed taxs from all the MMJ shops in the current 14 states were it is legal for medical use.

purple blues said:

i repeat...when are we going to stop supporting drug dealers and start supporting schools!

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When schools can make campain contrabtions that are greater then current big buisness outputs and when the schools can fund lobiests to sit in the capital and pay for votes?

purple blues said:

i repeat...when are we going to stop supporting drug dealers and start supporting schools!

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You should sell drugs to support you local schools insted of keeping all the profit to yourself greedy.

1gamma45 said:

When schools can make campain contrabtions that are greater then current big buisness outputs and when the schools can fund lobiests to sit in the capital and pay for votes?

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wtf the teachers union is one of the strongest in california.

prop 19 pretty much just showed how greedy some of us are instead of thinking outside of the box, it was a foothold that could of been worked on an adjusted but hey whatever keep putting money in the pockets of the thousandaire high school circle selling 2.8 gram cuts...it's legal in my closet anyways, i'd just like to get a real plot outside going without the leo kicking down my door and shooting my life threating toy terrier.

perhaps my use of gray was the wrong word
what i meant is all is not doom and gloom for MJ legal progress
it would have been great if 19 passed, sadly it didn't happen
there are some prospects for progress, though this will likely be slower and less dramatic than what 19 would have provided

1gamma45 said:

My understanding is this is a government for the people by the people?

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That's correct. But it has to be for all the people, not just the people who agree with us.

I really hate to be a downer here, I know we are all on the same side, but don't expect a more liberal bill to pass after this one failed.

Our best bet now isn't to try to pass a more radical piece of legislation that makes it tax and regulation free. Our best bet is to come up with a piece of legislation keeping all the taxes and regulations of prop 19, except in a way that is more inclusive.

Perhaps a ballot measure that keeps growing and selling of cannabis separate. Saying those who grow cannabis for profit can not sell cannabis retail. That way we aren't putting the entire business in the hands of dispensary owners.

I don't know man.... If we are serious about legalization we have to find a way to tax and regulate it in a way that keeps the support of the 215 community. A very difficult task. All I know is if we really want legalization we have to find a way to make everyone happy.

Needofweed said:

You should sell drugs to support you local schools insted of keeping all the profit to yourself greedy.

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Come on man, the voting is done. Lets all go back to being on the same side. What do ya say?

Dan Kone said:

Come on man, the voting is done. Lets all go back to being on the same side. What do ya say?

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If Prop 19 showed us anything ... it's that not all of us are TRULY on the same side.