Simple Questions About Beliefs

OK, first off, this thread is going to have a few rules. I know, but I gotta do it. We've had too many threads already that just turn into garbage because everyone is free to post whatever they want. So I'm going to ask everyone who decides to post in this thread to PLEASE FOLLOW THE RULES AND RESPECT THEM.

1. Personal attacks will not be tolerated, this goes for everyone, no exceptions

2. Stay on point

3. Keep in mind the goal of the thread with each post you make

4. Keep your posts limited to one paragraph, and explain everything you are trying to communicate as clearly as possible (imagine you are explaining your opinion to a child)

5. (and this one is very important) Once a point has been made and a counterpoint offered, SOMEONE MUST CONCEDE THAT THEY ARE WRONG! That makes the thread unique, and it shows US ALL where we may have flaws, and gives us a goal to work towards

Alright, so basically this is what I was thinking... Someone asks a question they've had about a belief, I have a million of them myself, stuff that just never made any sense to me in my own mind, stuff I've always been looking for an answer for. So anyone is allowed to pose a question, anyone is allowed to post a reply. The main thing is I'd like to keep on topic and not move to another point before the question has been answered to the askers satisfaction, and someone admits where they may have been wrong in their thinking. We gotta remember guys, there is absolutely nothing wrong with being wrong about something, all of us have been wrong. What is wrong is when you won't admit when you're wrong, when you keep thinking or doing the same thing because you think whatever it is is right. That is the definition of insanity. That's what we want to avoid! We're all guilty of that as well.

So, I'll start.

I pose this question mainly to any believer of the Abrahamic religions.

-Why would God give us this incredible gift of knowledge with the ability to figure out the background of the universe, figure out exactly how things work, what everything is made of, where we come from, but then have all* the information gathered through it contradict what all of the religions say about such questions, and what do you think is the most logical reason to why such a God might punish it's creation for pondering such questions?

*virtually all, ex. 99% of the data collected on evolution agrees with predictions of the theory of evolution, it all compliments eachother

Thanks guys, lets keep this civil and prove that believers and non believers can actually accomplish something other than a 100 page bitch/argue fest!

http://www.stevequayle.com/index.html http://www.sacred-texts.com/

JoeCa1i said:

http://www.stevequayle.com/index.html http://www.sacred-texts.com/

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Seems like a pretty good source for religious material at first glance, thanks for the post.

One other thing though, I forgot to mention in the OP, I'd like for anyone who responds to post in their own words. We could all go get something to copy/paste right? That's also very important!

It's a matter of faith my friend, believe in the good book and those tools you possess become seemingly useless for those particular actions. Why use THOSE tools to answer when you have a much more effective/efficient one? the best tool of all my friend! The good book: The Bible

We were granted those abilities to do other great things, much like we do today! It's just, we were never designed to bother having to question god, because god felt there was no need to, I'm sure. If you believe in god, why would that grotesque leap in logic towards how and why the universe works, matter?

It doooeessnn't silly, GOOD did it, -ha-ha. Seriously though, my question is: How is faith an equally valid pair to logic based through evidence?

DJBoxhouse said:

It's a matter of faith my friend, believe in the good book and those tools you possess become seemingly useless for those particular actions. Why use THOSE tools to answer when you have a much more effective/efficient one? the best tool of all my friend! The good book: The Bible

We were granted those abilities to do other great things, much like we do today! It's just, we were never designed to bother having to question god, because god felt there was no need to, I'm sure. If you believe in god, why would that grotesque leap in logic towards how and why the universe works, matter?

It doooeessnn't silly, GOOD did it, -ha-ha. Seriously though, my question is: How is faith an equally valid pair to logic based through evidence?

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Good response DJBox, that's what I pretty much suspected as well.

OK, my question was answered to my satisfaction. Nobody was wrong in this case. (I think the right/wrong rule is probably going to apply when a believer asks an atheist something or vice versa, so if that rule doesn't apply, it's all good)

Moving on. The Current question is (hope you don't mind I added on the bit on the end...);

How is faith an equally valid pair to logic based through evidence? ie. why is faith a good thing?

The problem is, religious people don't see faith and logic as a clash, they see them as compliments towards each other, albeit logic isn't the typical strong point of your 'stereotypical' theist, to be fair. Faith in the existence of god is established within truth; the various facets like science logic history,and all the other branches of knowledge concerning the observation of the natural order of the universe. knowledge to assists in discerning the wisdom of the revelation of the scriptures; the bible! reason and revelation. the initiation of faith established in philosophy and science, matured through the articles of faith and found establishment therein through theology and vice versa. The thing I don't like is, rather than seeing the clashing of principal in understanding it's seemingly ignored and hap-hazzardly used as reinforcement. *science solves another mystery!*Says the excited scientist - 'ah yes, isn't god beautiful? how can you not believe?' says the religious heckler. - I would, not wanting to argue semantics, agree. God, as in god being nature and not some sky ghost, IS quite beautiful indeed. Alas, the heckler misses the point entirely were it explained as such.

Heres another question for the readers.

Do you find yourself following faith, reason, or both, or one more than the other? What strengths and weaknesses, in your opinion, do you frequently find within faith and/or reason? Explain in your understanding, within what feasibility or 'reasoning' does faith hold claim to stay in the same grounds as logic and again, reason? From what I've seen it is not fruit of any evidence, deduction or structure, just whimsical hopes and best wishes in my opinion, yet I transgress, answer away.

Would someone kindly please translate that into Hippiespeak?

edit: Thanks!

faith is rule-based, like thou shall not..... blah blah blah
and it works pretty well for some folks - some people who quietly enjoy their faith are loving and responsible
personally, i prefer a reason based approach to life
just makes more sense to me
as soon as someone convinces me they have met God, logic will insist that I have faith

Why would God give us this incredible gift of knowledge......

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He didn't. Man took it from the tree of knowledge. Knowledge is a sin against god.

(Neat to think about it that way huh....?)
[/sarcasm]

PadawanBater said:

How is faith an equally valid pair to logic based through evidence? ie. why is faith a good thing?

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It isn't. Faith is belief in something that cannot be proven (now or ever, not to be confused with belief in a scientific theory that could plausibly be proven someday, emphasis on plausible). Believing in what isn't real is dangerous.

jeffchr said:

faith is rule-based, like thou shall not..... blah blah blah

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faith is not rule based. religion yes, but not faith...

You cannot look at faith logically because that's not how it works, otherwise we could simply say "there's no scientific proof so there's no god" but they call it "Faith" look up the definition. and what does enlightenment have to do with faith and religion? I LOVE science, but i also go to church because i believe that god actually wants something better for me than a short, less than 100 year stint on earth stuck to work and pay taxes. Now i could believe that we were made to come on earth, live, smoke pot, pay taxes, die and that's it, but my mind expands too much to believe something as simply as that. Also, science disproves itself everyday, i hate to quote a liberal show like the colbert report, but a young physicist on their said it one day "all the theories that explain the universe are just that, theories, and probably will be disproved or tweaked upon later in time" I'm not saying all religious people are good, everybody has their own ways to spirituality or religion, or whatever source of greater being...... and the theory of evolution is... i LOVE charles darwin but the poor mans information has been run through the coals and back.... in his original endeavors he stated that we "might have a similar ancestor" not that "we all came from monkeys"... i also grew up catholic and i DO believe in evolution, but i DONT believe we came from monkeys, that wouldn't make sense, why would both man and ape evolve over time if we evolved from an ape?.... and what's wrong with having some guidance in life like "dont steal, don't kill, don't have sex with your neighbors wife" there was a post about where to get cheap grow stuff the other day and one guy writes about how he goes and steals cfl's from his sons school when he's there for parent-teacher conference, and takes the from his dr.'s office.... and yet we're worried about the people who are going to church....hmmmm, and i just answered your question right there, faith is a good thing because it gives us guidance in life, sometimes there is more to life than smoking weed, playing on the computer.... there's things like kids, family, a career... people with lives like these tend to look for moral guidance and they get it at church.

faith is the ultimate abnegation of reason.
i firmly believe in the flying spaghetti monster (may you all be blessed by his noodley appendage) and that there truly has been, in fact, a blue tea kettle orbiting the earth since the flying spaghetti monster ejected our meatball like planet from his sublime and unlimited pasta-y mass.

go on. disprove it. you can't. it's my belief...

especially since it has been revealed to his prophets and put into holy writ that this is the way his noodliness intended it all to be...

oh, ps
i also believe in santa claus, the toothfaery, the easter bunny (harvey!?), gnomes, and nessy (to name a few)...

georgi345 said:

oh, ps
i also believe in santa claus, the toothfaery, the easter bunny (harvey!?), gnomes, and nessy (to name a few)...

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I know it's important for the progressives to destroy peoples faith, but this sh*t is getting old.

The lack of faith is the believe that the ability for human beings to love each-other comes naturally.

History proves otherwise

If Jesus was alive today, and preaching love rather than government intervention, most would call for his head, and the emperor in chief - in washington - would be happy to carry out the wishes of the people .

OK andy and GC, thanks for the replies, finally got some believers to join in!

What you both seem to be saying is that faith is something human beings need, right? We need it to be moral to eachother and some people need it to get through their lives as kind of a form of comfort believing there's something more.

But I have an issue with that. I don't believe in faith, I've never looked for strength or comfort in some form of faith. I'm a perfectly nice, reasonable, moral person. I don't break laws, I pay taxes... etc.. Am I simply an exception to your explination? I know a lot of people just like me who are perfectly moral people who don't seem to need faith at all to behave as such.

Thanks again for any responses.

also, one other thing for you andy;

https://www.rollitup.org/spirituality-sexuality-philosophy/252681-atheism-62.html

If you have any questions about the theory of evolution, this thread probably wouldn't be the best place to go to discuss it, but that thread I just linked is chalk full of information about evolution, common misconceptions and other general information. Don't let some of the hardcore fundamentalist type scare you away or tell you the atheists are only out to get you, if you come with logic and sound reasoning, you'll be welcomed with open arms. Hope to see you there!

georgi345 said:

faith is the ultimate abnegation of reason.
i firmly believe in the flying spaghetti monster (may you all be blessed by his noodley appendage) and that there truly has been, in fact, a blue tea kettle orbiting the earth since the flying spaghetti monster ejected our meatball like planet from his sublime and unlimited pasta-y mass.

go on. disprove it. you can't. it's my belief...

especially since it has been revealed to his prophets and put into holy writ that this is the way his noodliness intended it all to be...

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if that's what you believe, so be it. more power to you, tell Santa don't forget my presents this year

georgi345 said:

oh, ps
i also believe in santa claus, the toothfaery, the easter bunny (harvey!?), gnomes, and nessy (to name a few)...

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Green Cross is right, shit IS getting old. is this the best you got??? it has no relevance

WE ARE ALL ATHEIST'S IN ONE WAY OR ANOTHER!

Zeus, Attis, Horus, Buddha, Mohammad, Jesus, .....

Every believer SHOULD take into account that they could serve an eternity of damnation on mere probablistic grounds.

To be so very selfish to think that YOUR God/religion is correct. To take in account other people's religion when it is the literal sense to considered heretical. To admonish those unwilling to accept authority as truth or they will be damned. To then try to justify state and political control of someone else's PERSONAL sexual orientation. Is absurd.


And yet, the faithful hold truth in the highest esteem. But tend to disregard the intolerance and persecution of those unwilling to accept such ignorant certainty. Even if their doctrines/beliefs put those very people in uncomfortable places. "The search for comfort at the expense of truth."

I said it before and i'll say it once more.. whatever beliefs one takes to be foundational will dictate at any given moment what seems reasonable.

funny how you pool everyone into one category,,, my "god" as you call him, is not the "god" you speak of,,,, my "god" comes from within...

I have "faith" in myself,,, I am my own "god"