Sizing / Specing drip irrigation

2

2com

Well-Known Member
Hi,

I'm wondering how to go about matching parts for a drip irrigation setup. How does one choose the correct size (psi mostly, and gph I suppose) pressure pump for the emitters? Does it depend on the gph of the emitters, and the amount of them, or what?

Looking at netafim woodpecker emitters, 0.5gph I guess.

Is there any reason a pump like the "RV", diaphragm, pressure pumps (usually 12v) couldn't be used? I see/hear of people using big, fancy, pricey pressure pumps for their drip irrigation.

Thanks.
 
kingromano

kingromano

Well-Known Member
2com said:
Hi,

I'm wondering how to go about matching parts for a drip irrigation setup. How does one choose the correct size (psi mostly, and gph I suppose) pressure pump for the emitters? Does it depend on the gph of the emitters, and the amount of them, or what?

Looking at netafim woodpecker emitters, 0.5gph I guess.

Is there any reason a pump like the "RV", diaphragm, pressure pumps (usually 12v) couldn't be used? I see/hear of people using big, fancy, pricey pressure pumps for their drip irrigation.

Thanks.
Click to expand...
it is because they do not push enough pressure
big flow rate but small pressure
i dont know well diaphragm but it seems they pull high pressure but very low flow rate

for PC drippers you need both, pressure and flow rate

what you need to look at is lift height/pressure in bar
10meters of lift height=1bar

mine lift at 36meter and is rated at 3.6bar

PC jr. drippers do not open under 1bar bar of pressure, their operating range is 1.0-4.0 bar

i dont know where you saw they are expensive
you find good ones around 80euros
only defect, they are noisy

pc drippers is professional item, not fancy systems like floraflex octabubblers ..
 
Chopshop697

Chopshop697

Well-Known Member
I'm using an RV pump for my outdoor peppers. 12 shrubbler 360 degree emitters on a single 1/2 irrigation line. No problems, and the pressure is dialed in so the diameter of the irrigation circle stays in the 3 gal pots. Also, if you're going to use an RV pump, make sure you have a good filter before the pump. Diaphragm pumps don't like particulate matter. Also, the pump seals can leak badly if there's a clog, so indoor use should be carefully planned with some belts-and-suspenders flood prevention. I was also looking at fuel pumps (45psi range) but already had the RV pump, so.....
 
2

2com

Well-Known Member
kingromano said:
it is because they do not push enough pressure
big flow rate but small pressure
i dont know well diaphragm but it seems they pull high pressure but very low flow rate

for PC drippers you need both, pressure and flow rate

what you need to look at is lift height/pressure in bar
10meters of lift height=1bar

mine lift at 36meter and is rated at 3.6bar

PC jr. drippers do not open under 1bar bar of pressure, their operating range is 1.0-4.0 bar

i dont know where you saw they are expensive
you find good ones around 80euros
only defect, they are noisy

pc drippers is professional item, not fancy systems like floraflex octabubblers ..
Click to expand...
What is because they don't push enough pressure?? I'm not sure what you're answering there, because I didn't ask a "why" question that would relate to your answer...

I know PC drippers need high pressure, I know the pressure range they operate within (based on the info on their product page).
-But it doesn't make sense to me that they need a high flow pump - like what you're saying. Especially if, for example, the emitters are 1gph or less...

In @getogrow's thread, where you answered my pump question, you can see the guy @Beehive recommended a shurflow pump, that is the same style as an "RV" water pump. It's high pressure and low flow (3.0-3.5gph or similar) and about 45psi. They come in 120v and 12v.

I tried to look up the one you use, just based on the picture (gardena 3000/4 model?) and it's pretty expensive and seems somewhat unavailable outside europe maybe?
 
2

2com

Well-Known Member
Chopshop697 said:
I'm using an RV pump for my outdoor peppers. 12 shrubbler 360 degree emitters on a single 1/2 irrigation line. No problems, and the pressure is dialed in so the diameter of the irrigation circle stays in the 3 gal pots. Also, if you're going to use an RV pump, make sure you have a good filter before the pump. Diaphragm pumps don't like particulate matter. Also, the pump seals can leak badly if there's a clog, so indoor use should be carefully planned with some belts-and-suspenders flood prevention. I was also looking at fuel pumps (45psi range) but already had the RV pump, so.....
Click to expand...
Thanks for the tips. Those shrubbler 360 PC stakes look nice, with the built in PC function.
So the pumps themselves can leak if there's a clog downstream (causing...too much backpressure?) is that what you mean?
 
2

2com

Well-Known Member
Example of greengenes hydrolock setup, pump seen on wall above reservoir:

Page for the system, which shows two pumps they supply for their setup:
www.dripright.com

Irrigation Accessories | DripRight | Made In The USA

Tools for HydroLock Covered Irrigation Kits HydroLock is the most advanced top feeding solution for all plants. As engineers and growing enthusiasts, we have found many problems with watering products that lead to disappointing results. HydroLock has been designed out of necessity to offer...
www.dripright.com www.dripright.com

I think I'd need a pump that's gonna be able to do maybe 80 PC drippers. And I was thinking 0.5gph drippers... but I duno if that's too little or too much. I don't want too much flow as I think (from some reading) that too high of flow causes water channels and not enough even flow through to push out old nutrient/salts, etc.
 
Chopshop697

Chopshop697

Well-Known Member
Actually, my RV pump clogged (it only takes a tiny speck or two) and I opened the cover to clean it out. Never sealed properly after that. Was good for one or two cycles, but then started shooting water across the room from the seal. That's why it's my outside pump now.
 
2

2com

Well-Known Member
Chopshop697 said:
Actually, my RV pump clogged (it only takes a tiny speck or two) and I opened the cover to clean it out. Never sealed properly after that. Was good for one or two cycles, but then started shooting water across the room from the seal. That's why it's my outside pump now.
Click to expand...
... ...Fuck. I duno what to think (or do) about that then.
I guess, maybe, figure out what micro size particles are the largest a given pump can handle, and trying to find a screen filter than filters to smaller than that? Still, only hoping for the best? Shit man.

What type and brand of ferts are/were you using?
 
Chopshop697

Chopshop697

Well-Known Member
Ahh, don't sweat it. I used v1 Mega Crop, which usually had some chunky bits that were hard to dissolve. Any other fert on any other day would've been fine, I just wasn't paying attention to the crunching noises coming from the pump. I could've wrapped some fish tank filter mesh around my intake with a tie-wrap, and would've been fine. After the ill-fated leak, I ditched the pump, and went gravity feed through a bank of solenoids that dumped a 3/8 nylon tube into a Floraflex cap. No clogs, no pumps, and a high enough volume to flood the top of the whole pot, instead of a circle around the stem. Granted, I had a PLC controlling all the valves, so I could time the volume delivered to a split second, but if I could find a way to deliver a fixed flow to a bunch of hoses, I'd go that route. I think Floraflex has an octo-port distributor that supplies 8 1/4" tubes at a time from a 1/2"NPT riser. I might try that route on my next indoor foray.
 
kingromano

kingromano

Well-Known Member
2com said:
What is because they don't push enough pressure?? I'm not sure what you're answering there, because I didn't ask a "why" question that would relate to your answer...

I know PC drippers need high pressure, I know the pressure range they operate within (based on the info on their product page).
-But it doesn't make sense to me that they need a high flow pump - like what you're saying. Especially if, for example, the emitters are 1gph or less...

In @getogrow's thread, where you answered my pump question, you can see the guy @Beehive recommended a shurflow pump, that is the same style as an "RV" water pump. It's high pressure and low flow (3.0-3.5gph or similar) and about 45psi. They come in 120v and 12v.

I tried to look up the one you use, just based on the picture (gardena 3000/4 model?) and it's pretty expensive and seems somewhat unavailable outside europe maybe?
Click to expand...
"Is there any reason a pump like the "RV", diaphragm, pressure pumps (usually 12v) couldn't be used? " thats what u was askin
try and you will know, insead of asking

u ask help of persons using NETAFIM PC drippers.. you get answers

not sure what u lookin for

if you want to use small pumps, quit PC drippers and use open lines .
 
Last edited:
kingromano

kingromano

Well-Known Member
2com said:
Example of greengenes hydrolock setup, pump seen on wall above reservoir:

Page for the system, which shows two pumps they supply for their setup:
www.dripright.com

Irrigation Accessories | DripRight | Made In The USA

Tools for HydroLock Covered Irrigation Kits HydroLock is the most advanced top feeding solution for all plants. As engineers and growing enthusiasts, we have found many problems with watering products that lead to disappointing results. HydroLock has been designed out of necessity to offer...
www.dripright.com www.dripright.com

I think I'd need a pump that's gonna be able to do maybe 80 PC drippers. And I was thinking 0.5gph drippers... but I duno if that's too little or too much. I don't want too much flow as I think (from some reading) that too high of flow causes water channels and not enough even flow through to push out old nutrient/salts, etc.
Click to expand...
no pc's here .. more some kind of octabubbler, they are not pressure compensative
if you measure the quantity of water on each tubing you will get disparities

with netafim even on 50meters of line you will get exact same measuring on each site
because there is a strong pump behind, that put the line in pressure, and then when its under pressure drippers start to open

with a weak pump and normal drippers(for exemple a cellar vac pump, with very high flow rate and low lift height (pressure in BAR) the sites closer to the pump will drip strongly, and the last sites on the line will drip very weak or not drip at all.

if you have a small setup you don't really need pc, but know there will be inconsistencies
 
2

2com

Well-Known Member
Chopshop697 said:
Ahh, don't sweat it. I used v1 Mega Crop, which usually had some chunky bits that were hard to dissolve. Any other fert on any other day would've been fine, I just wasn't paying attention to the crunching noises coming from the pump. I could've wrapped some fish tank filter mesh around my intake with a tie-wrap, and would've been fine. After the ill-fated leak, I ditched the pump, and went gravity feed through a bank of solenoids that dumped a 3/8 nylon tube into a Floraflex cap. No clogs, no pumps, and a high enough volume to flood the top of the whole pot, instead of a circle around the stem. Granted, I had a PLC controlling all the valves, so I could time the volume delivered to a split second, but if I could find a way to deliver a fixed flow to a bunch of hoses, I'd go that route. I think Floraflex has an octo-port distributor that supplies 8 1/4" tubes at a time from a 1/2"NPT riser. I might try that route on my next indoor foray.
Click to expand...
The crunching noises were good indicator, yea. Haha.
MegaCrop, that explains it.
That solenoid setup sounds pretty interesting. Your mention of the PLC to control the timing reminds me of another pressing question I have - what's is a good timer for irrigation? Reliable and can do 1 second intervals (ie 13 seconds, 27 seconds, or 45 seconds, etc.)?
The trolmaster hydro-x is purposefully crippled in it's ability to do simple program timings so that they can sell you their irrigation controller (aqua-x?) which does allow for better program/timer setting intervals. The hydro-x is so blatantly dumbed down it's ridiculous.
 
2

2com

Well-Known Member
kingromano said:
"Is there any reason a pump like the "RV", diaphragm, pressure pumps (usually 12v) couldn't be used? " thats what u was askin
try and you will know, insead of asking

u ask help of persons using NETAFIM PC drippers.. you get answers

not sure what u lookin for

if you want to use small pumps, quit PC drippers and use open lines .
Click to expand...
Ah, ok. I was looking for the question I asked in my previous post that would prompt the answer you gave and couldn't find it, haha. My bad. Thanks.
I do see that those RV pumps come in 120v as well.

Anyway, what I don't understand is why high volume/flow is needed, when the PC emitters only allow (limit) the flow to a set gph anyways... a gph of 0.5gph, or 1gph, or 2.5gph, for example. But I guess there are also PC emitters that allow up to 5-10gph too. Hmm.

Thanks.
 
2

2com

Well-Known Member
kingromano said:
no pc's here .. more some kind of octabubbler, they are not pressure compensative
if you measure the quantity of water on each tubing you will get disparities

with netafim even on 50meters of line you will get exact same measuring on each site
because there is a strong pump behind, that put the line in pressure, and then when its under pressure drippers start to open

with a weak pump and normal drippers(for exemple a cellar vac pump, with very high flow rate and low lift height (pressure in BAR) the sites closer to the pump will drip strongly, and the last sites on the line will drip very weak or not drip at all.

if you have a small setup you don't really need pc, but know there will be inconsistencies
Click to expand...
That system uses a pressure regulator in the feed/supply line, according to the company. But yes, you're right, not PC at each site. It uses 360* misters at each pot.
I was only showing that video to show the RV pump though, as I said.
 
kingromano

kingromano

Well-Known Member
2com said:
Ah, ok. I was looking for the question I asked in my previous post that would prompt the answer you gave and couldn't find it, haha. My bad. Thanks.
I do see that those RV pumps come in 120v as well.

Anyway, what I don't understand is why high volume/flow is needed, when the PC emitters only allow (limit) the flow to a set gph anyways... a gph of 0.5gph, or 1gph, or 2.5gph, for example. But I guess there are also PC emitters that allow up to 5-10gph too. Hmm.

Thanks.
Click to expand...
80sites x 2 liters/hour=160 liters/hour

yes if you find a pump that push 1 bar minimum at a bit more than 160liters/hour i would be curious to see if it works
try and tell me

the advantage of surface pump is they can pump the solution from several meters, even a stair under if the pump is located up, and the reservoir downstair

i checked on netafim.com and PC junior cnl open between 0.5 to 4.0 bar
 
2

2com

Well-Known Member
kingromano said:
80sites x 2 liters/hour=160 liters/hour

yes if you find a pump that push 1 bar minimum at a bit more than 160liters/hour i would be curious to see if it works
try and tell me

the advantage of surface pump is they can pump the solution from several meters, even a stair under if the pump is located up, and the reservoir downstair

i checked on netafim.com and PC junior cnl open between 0.5 to 4.0 bar
Click to expand...
Ah, I see what you're saying. I need to add up the flow rate of *all* the individual drip emitters, haha. Ok.

Btw, so you use PC dripper setup for your grow? Have many successful grows using these netafim drippers (or others)? I'm curious if you've ever had clogging of drippers or tubing, from salt buildup - or *anything else*?
 
2

2com

Well-Known Member
@kingromano
Ok, so reading this, I see more the style of pump you're recommending. The example they give is an ecoplus brand, I check the link for it on their site: $675 CAD, hahaha.
So, maybe I need to be searching for "Jet Pumps", or "irrigation Jet Pumps".
 
L

LC39

Member
All you need to do is put a pressure tank on with your “RV” pressure pump. I use one with a 275 gallon tote at a remote off grid site for water/nutes. There is a particulate strainer before the pressure pump, the pump pressurizes a small pressure tank, 2 gallons I think, it then goes to another particulate filter and then a carbon filter before it hits my irrigation tubing. I’m using Blumat rather than Netafin in my hoophouse but do use netafim in my raised bed veg garden. Good stuff.
 
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