the mail

So Im reading different threads about people getting in trouble for mailing MMJ dif. places and Im wondering what exactly makes it Illegal?

in the Ca. forums there is a guy worried about getting in trouble and what not. what I want to know is if its legal to have and if your not sending it someplace its illegal to have what about shipping makes it Illegal?

Ca. is a big state and if you are living in the north part it can possibly be a several hour drive to the southern part. instead of driving whats to stop one patient from sending it to another in a diff part of the state provided they are both legal? No money is changing hands so there isnt sales to worry about. Is it just that the post office is a federal institution and since its federally Illegal that the mail doesnt like it?

Idk My mind is just working overtime and Im trying to see what you guys think about this.

Hmm... Medicated pretty heavy right now, but let me take a shot.

This is a tough one, but let's look at a slightly different view you may not have thought of?

Suppose shipping something hazardous like explosives was legal... and anyone could do it.
Sooner or later, someone's going to ship something that blows someone or something to kingdom come and the Executives and lawyers are going to ask- "Who do we blame for this?"
They point the finger squarely at the U.S. Postal service and U.S. Government for...allowing one to 'ship something hazardous like explosives legally' in the first place!

Now here's the kicker- Just because 'they' said you could do it legally, doesn't mean that nobody could get hurt or killed!

Same thing about shipping paint cans, flammable liquids, etc...they are not only considered dangerous, they really are!

SO...the horribly dragged out example I have given thus illustrates- "That is O.K. to ship most anything through the U.S. mail, as long as it is not considered criminal or dangerous."

Shipping volatile chemicals and explosives through the U.S. Mail? O.K... I get that, but shipping something that is harmless and wrongly labeled as both criminal AND dangerous?
Before the advent of the TV, computer, Internet, cell phones and live texting...there existed an old physical paper based service called...the U.S. Mail. THAT was how ‘information’ was spread and shared and the biggest, best way, at the time.

However our sleazy government found out that item #9 "Was the bees knees! and "should be shouted from the rooftops!". In short, they DID NOT WANT the people to know anything more about item #9, so they made it both criminal AND dangerous to ship it via THE U.S. MAIL.
Then the U.S. Government got busy with something called... W.W. II They pretty much didn't worry about people learning or finding out the truth about item#9.

Fast forward 20+ years later and the 60's changed a lot of things. People were finding out about item#9 and it was growing quickly in popularity, which the government DID NOT WANT. The moniker 'hippie' was born and people who knew about item #9 were instantly branded.

Talk about marketing- they say it once and it sticks? Holy crap!

Now the government has falsely created a whole new class of 'anti-socialists' or 'less than desirables' that the public knows as 'the bad guy…’The Hippie'.

Because the U.S. Government, who cares for us all so much by stating that shipping marijuana is both 'criminal and dangerous'...and like fools we believed them.

Further down the rabbit hole we go... wow these brownies are STRONG!

Stay with me now…

Who originally decided that shipping marijuana was both criminal and dangerous?
Bueller? Anyone? (sound of pin dropping)

Apparently none of us knows...otherwise we could look it up just like any other part of history and see who it was. Someone had to make that decision, really- who was it?

What if a lawyer (or group) were to challenge the U.S. Government IN COURT on it's current law (or policy) that makes shipping marijuana both 'Criminal and Dangerous'.

Think about it...the U.S. Government gets sued all the time, for a multitude of reasons, so this would be yet another one...or would it?

By PUBLICALLY drawing the U.S. Government INTO COURT on charges of "deliberately misclassifying marijuana as both 'Criminal and Dangerous'", this would FORCE the issue into the public eye everywhere like a white hot poker. Definitely, National attention. The people in that court case would be some of the world's BEST minds in regards to the 'medical benefits and government propaganda of marijuana'. Then the government would try to seal the case, or do media blackouts on the proceedings. Lastly, the people would find out that the government was deliberately trying to prevent people from learning was what divulged in that courtroom. Any way you slice it, the PEOPLE WILL FIND OUT that item #9 IS REAL!

So you ask- WHY is shipping marijuana considered both 'Criminal and Dangerous'?

That's a GREAT QUESTION and I believe the government needs to be called on it! Drag their asses into court and make them PROVE UNDER OATH AND PENALTY OF PERJURY that marijuana is both 'Criminal and Dangerous'. The government would then be guilty of perjury because they would just repeat the same old tired, bullshit lies they have spewed all along. BUT, the public might also get to hear from a different perspective, from proponents who are very knowledgeable and would TELL THE TRUTH!

But, you say- suing the U.S. government over something that everybody knows is preposterous, right?
Nope. People file frivolous lawsuits all the time. Like these for instance:

In March 1995, a San Diego man unsuccessfully attempted to sue the city and Jack Murphy Stadium for $5.4 million over something that can only be described as a wee problem: Robert Glaser claimed the stadium's unisex bathroom policy at a Billy Joel and Elton John concert caused him embarrassment and emotional distress thanks to the sight of a woman using a urinal in front of him. He subsequently tried "six or seven" other bathrooms in the stadium only to find women in all of them. He asserted he "had to hold it in for four hours" because he was too embarrassed to share the public bathrooms with women.

A San Carlos, California, man sued the Escondido Public Library for $1.5 million. His dog, a 50-pound Labrador mix, was attacked November 2000 by the library's 12-pound feline mascot, L.C., (also known as Library Cat). The case was heard in January 2004, with the jury finding for the defendant. In a further case which was resolved in July 2004, the plaintiff in the previous suit was ordered to pay the city $29,362.50, which amounted to 75% of its legal fees associated with that case.

In 1994, a student at the University of Idaho unsuccessfully sued that institution over his fall from a third-floor dorm window. He'd been mooning other students when the window gave way. It was contended the University failed to provide a safe environment for students or to properly warn them of the dangers inherent to upper-story windows.

In 1993, McDonald's was unsuccessfully sued over a car accident in New Jersey. While driving, a man who had placed a milkshake between his legs, leaned over to reach into his bag of food and squeezed the milkshake container in the process. When the lid popped off and spilled half the drink in his lap, this driver became distracted and ran into another man's car. That man in turn tried to sue McDonald's for causing the accident, saying the restaurant should have cautioned the man who had hit him against eating while driving.

These were ALL obviously frivolous lawsuits, right?
Correct. Simple logic tells us that.

So...is suing the government for "deliberately misclassifying marijuana as both 'Criminal and Dangerous' " frivolous?

Nope, because it's TRUE!
This would certainly draw huge amounts of attention to the cause and help loosen the death grip the government seems to have over its people.

So... you posed a question that surely many have asked and that none have been able to answer.

(man, these brownies are potent)

Ok, answer to the question- is:
The U.S. Government made it illegal (at some point in history, by someone) to ship marijuana through the U.S. Mail because… wait for it...

'they did not want the public to find out about item#9- marijuana'. Can you say EPIC FAIL?

ROFLMAO

Drag their asses into court and make them PROVE UNDER OATH AND PENALTY OF PERJURY that marijuana is both 'Criminal and Dangerous'. The government would then be guilty of perjury because they would just repeat the same old tired, bullshit lies they have spewed all along.

Click to expand...

I love this idea - they would probably refuse to testify under oath though because they know they'd have nothing left to say.

In 1994, a student at the University of Idaho unsuccessfully sued that institution over his fall from a third-floor dorm window. He'd been mooning other students when the window gave way. It was contended the University failed to provide a safe environment for students or to properly warn them of the dangers inherent to upper-story windows.

Click to expand...

LMAO. Thanks for sharing, I needed that.

BadAndy said:

So Im reading different threads about people getting in trouble for mailing MMJ dif. places and Im wondering what exactly makes it Illegal?

in the Ca. forums there is a guy worried about getting in trouble and what not. what I want to know is if its legal to have and if your not sending it someplace its illegal to have what about shipping makes it Illegal?

Ca. is a big state and if you are living in the north part it can possibly be a several hour drive to the southern part. instead of driving whats to stop one patient from sending it to another in a diff part of the state provided they are both legal? No money is changing hands so there isnt sales to worry about. Is it just that the post office is a federal institution and since its federally Illegal that the mail doesnt like it?

Idk My mind is just working overtime and Im trying to see what you guys think about this.

Click to expand...

i ship meds to my brother who is also medical in the state of cali. i use my name and address

MacGuyver4.2.0 said:

Hmm... Medicated pretty heavy right now, but let me take a shot.


*************snip*************

Talk about marketing- they say it once and it sticks? Holy crap!

Now the government has falsely created a whole new class of 'anti-socialists' or 'less than desirables' that the public knows as 'the bad guy…’The Hippie'.

Because the U.S. Government, who cares for us all so much by stating that shipping marijuana is both 'criminal and dangerous'...and like fools we believed them.

Further down the rabbit hole we go... wow these brownies are STRONG!

Stay with me now…

Who originally decided that shipping marijuana was both criminal and dangerous?
Bueller? Anyone? (sound of pin dropping)

Apparently none of us knows...otherwise we could look it up just like any other part of history and see who it was. Someone had to make that decision, really- who was it?

What if a lawyer (or group) were to challenge the U.S. Government IN COURT on it's current law (or policy) that makes shipping marijuana both 'Criminal and Dangerous'.

Think about it...the U.S. Government gets sued all the time, for a multitude of reasons, so this would be yet another one...or would it?

By PUBLICALLY drawing the U.S. Government INTO COURT on charges of "deliberately misclassifying marijuana as both 'Criminal and Dangerous'", this would FORCE the issue into the public eye everywhere like a white hot poker. Definitely, National attention. The people in that court case would be some of the world's BEST minds in regards to the 'medical benefits and government propaganda of marijuana'. Then the government would try to seal the case, or do media blackouts on the proceedings. Lastly, the people would find out that the government was deliberately trying to prevent people from learning was what divulged in that courtroom. Any way you slice it, the PEOPLE WILL FIND OUT that item #9 IS REAL!

So you ask- WHY is shipping marijuana considered both 'Criminal and Dangerous'?

That's a GREAT QUESTION and I believe the government needs to be called on it! Drag their asses into court and make them PROVE UNDER OATH AND PENALTY OF PERJURY that marijuana is both 'Criminal and Dangerous'. The government would then be guilty of perjury because they would just repeat the same old tired, bullshit lies they have spewed all along. BUT, the public might also get to hear from a different perspective, from proponents who are very knowledgeable and would TELL THE TRUTH!

*******************************snip**************************************

So...is suing the government for "deliberately misclassifying marijuana as both 'Criminal and Dangerous' " frivolous?

Nope, because it's TRUE!
This would certainly draw huge amounts of attention to the cause and help loosen the death grip the government seems to have over its people.

So... you posed a question that surely many have asked and that none have been able to answer.

(man, these brownies are potent)

Ok, answer to the question- is:
The U.S. Government made it illegal (at some point in history, by someone) to ship marijuana through the U.S. Mail because… wait for it...

'they did not want the public to find out about item#9- marijuana'. Can you say EPIC FAIL?

ROFLMAO

Click to expand...

There is NO QUESTION that the governments stance on this whole affair has nothing whatsoever to with "PUBLIC SAFETY", and after lo these many years, it has become patently obvious that they KNOW MJ is not dangerous, poses NO risk to public health or safety. All one has to do is look around at the things that ARE legal, causing untold misery and death to figure THAT out. Yet they continue to make deliberately misleading statements, and outright lie about the dangers it poses to the american public (More's the shame that it works!!) They KNOW they are telling us lies, they allow NO research that might contradict thier position.

This is exactly how we should be attacking the government's stance. THIS HAS RECENTLY BEEN DONE SUCCESSFULLY by a group of intrepid folks who really only wanted to have fun, but were stymied after 9/11 when the government had thier typical knee-jerk reaction and started banning all sorts of things in no way related to what happened.
A small group of hobby rocket enthusiasts use Ammonium Perchlorate Composite Propellant (APCP) as the primary fuel for thier rockets. The Government looked at them as "home-grown terrorists" and the BATFE immediately put APCP on the list of controlled explosives, effectively shutting down the Hobby, even though APCP will NOT explode.
This small group of intrepid souls got together with another likeminded organization, and took the Government to task, suing them to PROVE thier position. After 9 years, this group of rocket heads PREVAILED in court, and the Government was forced to reverse thier position... (THIS IS IMPORTANT FOLKS!! READ THIS!! http://www.rocketryplanet.com/images/pdf/ATFE-03-16-09.pdf )
Just where the HELL is NORML in all of this?? Of all the rational arguments we can make, the deliberate lies promulgated by the government is the BEST hope we have of seeing any kind of leglization in the near or distant future! What if we were to get a mopdicum of co-operation between the MJ growing sites, get them to put down thier differences, and cooperate LONG ENOUGH to get a Legal Fund established. Contributions to said legal defence fund could be an on going thing. I certainly cant help but believe that there would be any number of would be Johhny Cochrans or F. Lee. Baileys out there chomping at the bit to try this case. If every stoner contributed $1 dollar per week to this fund, the possibilities are staggering.
I now defer to better minds than mine to devise ways to implement this.........................

BA- Did you forget I was just tried for shipping cannabis?! LOL Gimme a call, I would be glad to clarify on anything you need to know considering my lawyer and I have been through it over the last year. There are loop holes that NEED TO BE FOLLOWED. I would be glad to share privately.

Jack Harer said:

There is NO QUESTION that the governments stance on this whole affair has nothing whatsoever to with "PUBLIC SAFETY", and after lo these many years, it has become patently obvious that they KNOW MJ is not dangerous, poses NO risk to public health or safety. All one has to do is look around at the things that ARE legal, causing untold misery and death to figure THAT out. Yet they continue to make deliberately misleading statements, and outright lie about the dangers it poses to the american public (More's the shame that it works!!) They KNOW they are telling us lies, they allow NO research that might contradict thier position.

This is exactly how we should be attacking the government's stance. THIS HAS RECENTLY BEEN DONE SUCCESSFULLY by a group of intrepid folks who really only wanted to have fun, but were stymied after 9/11 when the government had thier typical knee-jerk reaction and started banning all sorts of things in no way related to what happened.
A small group of hobby rocket enthusiasts use Ammonium Perchlorate Composite Propellant (APCP) as the primary fuel for thier rockets. The Government looked at them as "home-grown terrorists" and the BATFE immediately put APCP on the list of controlled explosives, effectively shutting down the Hobby, even though APCP will NOT explode.
This small group of intrepid souls got together with another likeminded organization, and took the Government to task, suing them to PROVE thier position. After 9 years, this group of rocket heads PREVAILED in court, and the Government was forced to reverse thier position... (THIS IS IMPORTANT FOLKS!! READ THIS!! http://www.rocketryplanet.com/images/pdf/ATFE-03-16-09.pdf )
Just where the HELL is NORML in all of this?? Of all the rational arguments we can make, the deliberate lies promulgated by the government is the BEST hope we have of seeing any kind of leglization in the near or distant future! What if we were to get a mopdicum of co-operation between the MJ growing sites, get them to put down thier differences, and cooperate LONG ENOUGH to get a Legal Fund established. Contributions to said legal defence fund could be an on going thing. I certainly cant help but believe that there would be any number of would be Johhny Cochrans or F. Lee. Baileys out there chomping at the bit to try this case. If every stoner contributed $1 dollar per week to this fund, the possibilities are staggering.
I now defer to better minds than mine to devise ways to implement this.........................

Click to expand...

Jack Harer:

You are correct about that example, I totally omitted the ESTES rocket engines fiasco. The one thing that those people have working for them- ESTES. They have been around for many years and were not about to go out of business based on a government lie. They got organized, paid a lawyer (or team) and they got the results they wanted...overturning the governemnts incorrect policy that rocket engines were dangerous and posed a threat to national security.

A good question about NORML (or any other orginization) WHAT ARE THEY DOING? And why didn't THEY think of this? This seems blatently simple, and could be the case of the century. Maybe someone like Richard Branson (billionaire, head of Virgin Galactic, among others) could pull this off, since he (Sting and others) are on the Drug Policy alliance board: http://www.drugpolicy.org/

Oh, and you wanted to know *how* one goes about getting results? Here's a start and a good possibility.
http://www.drugpolicy.org/about-us/grants/advocacy-grants-program-promoting-policy-change-guidelines

Any number of money grubbing lawyers who *say* they represent the cause (Robert Corry, others here) should be able to apply and see if they get some ching to start litigation against the government.

Estes played little to no part in it. Estes has the proper permits, and hobby rocketry (APCP propellant for hobby use) is but a tiny fraction of thier business. ESTES makes "Black Powder Motors for the most part. Now Aerotech, on the other hand, had an incredible stake, but even then, the hobby industry represents but a small portion of thier revenue. PLUS, Just like the explosion at ESTES, the Aerotech factory EXPLODED during the case (Due to mishandling of the AP itself). I am a member of Tripoli, and was very active during the time this whole fiasco occurred. What was threatened was our ability to by a commercially available APCP rocket propellant grain over a certain size, and our ability to manufacture and store our own propellant. The legal battle was initially conducted by Tripoli alone, subsidized by member donations. NAR (National Association of Rocketry) Joined soon after, and again the legal battle was funded purely thru membership donations and fund-raisers.
The thing that makes this so unique is that all things considered, the fight was brought to bear by a SMALL group of people facing the leviathon Government, and funded by donations only. I guarantee you that there are WAY, WAY more potheads out there than the entire membership of Tripoli and NAR combined 100 times over!!! Can you imagine what would be possible if potheads united, donated and sued??? If only 10% of all potheads donated $10, we could mont one HELL of a suit!!!

If there are ANY NORML officers, or thier spokes persons reading this, I'd REALLY love to know WHY this has slipped past the legl team at NORML, considering the fact that I personally emailed the entire case to them? This case would be DIRECTLY on point, and the courts would have no recourse but to follow the case law set forth, thus effectively gaining legal status. Can anyone say Res Judicata?

Jack- I LIKE your thinking, something we need alot more of.

Question- *could* the evil U.S. Government try to take down a website or shutdown an orginization that merely existed to 'crowd source' funding to fight said legal battle? By try, I mean with some 100% legal clout? Because if THEY CANNOT stop us that way, then NORML or someone else IN THE INDUSTRY needs to step up and make this happen, like now. Scattered we are small and powerless. Together, we are a force to be reckoned with... and the government knows this!

This may sound cliche`, but it needs to be said- "If not us, WHO? If not NOW, when?". I will email my points from this article to my NORML chapter here and to the DPA (Drug Policy Alliance) as well. If NORML and the others let us down, I will do this myself, with the help of a kick ass lawyer of course.

indipow82 said:

BA- Did you forget I was just tried for shipping cannabis?! LOL Gimme a call, I would be glad to clarify on anything you need to know considering my lawyer and I have been through it over the last year. There are loop holes that NEED TO BE FOLLOWED. I would be glad to share privately.

Click to expand...

Id glady give ya a call but i gave you my phone # you never gave me yours, so unless I can just randomly press a bunch of keys on my phone and have it ring you thats out of the question. ( what a coincidence if I could though)

alot of interesting thoughts going on here which is what I was after guys. Thnx for taking the time to respond!

I will pm you my number, pretty sure your number is somewhere in my messages yet!

MacGuyver4.2.0 said:

Jack- I LIKE your thinking, something we need alot more of.

Question- *could* the evil U.S. Government try to take down a website or shutdown an orginization that merely existed to 'crowd source' funding to fight said legal battle? By try, I mean with some 100% legal clout? Because if THEY CANNOT stop us that way, then NORML or someone else IN THE INDUSTRY needs to step up and make this happen, like now. Scattered we are small and powerless. Together, we are a force to be reckoned with... and the government knows this!

This may sound cliche`, but it needs to be said- "If not us, WHO? If not NOW, when?". I will email my points from this article to my NORML chapter here and to the DPA (Drug Policy Alliance) as well. If NORML and the others let us down, I will do this myself, with the help of a kick ass lawyer of course.

Click to expand...

Dude, I firmly and completely believe that if we can get the funding together for legal fees, and get at the very least loosely organized, this cannot help but prevail. The governments anti-marijuana position is based SOLELY on ignorance and predjudice, and is not supported by one SHRED of credible scientific evidence. None of it!!! There HAS to be an up and coming hot shot who could make his bones by being the first to do this. And once the ice is broken, the coffergates will burst. All we need will be a few brave souls who will stand up to the government, andnot worry about the ostracism or consequences. I would be MORE than happy to be counted.
And I am sorely disappointed by NORML, and thier apparent lack of interest in this. If 2 small organizations like Tripoli and NAR can take on the BATFE and win, especially in the post 9/11 atmosphere, how can a nation of MJ users NOT?? I firmly believe that if the truth were told, over 75% of our population either favors legalization, or is at the very least ambivalent. Certainly not the numbers the government would willingly admit to.

I agree w jack. Find a lawyer who will take the case, get them to affirm via pm or post here and I'll bite. Now kinda of subject but what about fedex or ups? Sounds like they ship, even though they don't approve (ya right).

chef c said:

I agree w jack. Find a lawyer who will take the case, get them to affirm via pm or post here and I'll bite. Now kinda of subject but what about fedex or ups? Sounds like they ship, even though they don't approve (ya right).

Click to expand...

Thanks Chef, I also agree. But, this project just gained critical mass and it's time to take this discussion offline or PM only. Too much has been said out in the open already. I will fill in those with a need to know. Fasten your seatbelts folks because if I get my way, this November will be the one to remember!