The Quest for a Better Aero!

PetFlora

PetFlora

Well-Known Member
I meant for AFTER the first 0.5 seconds. If I could set my timer in half-second increments.I could set my timer for 1.5 seconds, which theoretically would give me one full second > 50 psi, This would get me about as close to High pressure as I am likely to achieve without an accumulator. Also, it would prepare me in the event I decide to play with an accumulator. It is after-all, intriguing, just IMHO impractical for personal use.

hth
 
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Atomizer

Well-Known Member
I don`t understand why you think accumulators are only for commercial setups, they offer huge a benefit to any hp aero grow. As far as being impractical they are very easy to set up.

Here`s a pic GD77 might find useful when he sets up his 6800, this arrangement is for a 350gal, 24 nozzle outdoor chamber (dtw feed method) but it could just as easily be used to run a 20gal chamber.


The total cost of the hardware in the pic was under $200. You do have to look around for bargains to get it that low but it includes everything except the nozzles and the accumulator.

I integrated a 12v cycle timer with the 12v solenoid inside the black box so i only need to run a single 12v dc cable outside to the chamber along with a single 1/4" tube from the accumulator. The accumulator (6.6gal, 16-bar) cost $140 but i`m sure you can buy 8.5-bar (125psi) tanks in the states for a lot less than that.
 
PetFlora

PetFlora

Well-Known Member
I emailed sordselectric to see whether they offer a reasonably priced deep cycle digital timer to meet our requirements

Atomizer: This setup looks simple enough, but each additional component increases the potential for failure/breakdown. Until I do a complete sans accumulator grow without environmental incident, I will forgo considering adding one.

About 2 weeks ago, right at the time I went 12/12, we had a near record matching heat wave. Typically, we do not see such heat until late May-mid June, I was totally unprepared for the heat, which caused my pod RH to average high 80s- low 90s. It took me 4 days to figure out and install the simple solution - a heat vent. The heat stress caused all 4 plants to hermie. Now these were 4 plants that were started in the back up pod with the IGE timer, so they had really long roots, but they had a fair amount of laterals, which continue to develop since moving them to the main system.

In order to efficiently feed them I installed a grid to get the roots off the bottom. To separate each plant's roots I wound each into ~ 6" circles, each pile is ~ one inch thick. The plants average < 10" tall, but the roots are well over 2ft. Using a dual head mister, I had my wet/dry dialed in at 1/45 when I finally began seeing root hairs, then along came the heat wave, and killed off all the delicate hairs. I took 4 cuttings, removed the sacs and am hoping (probably beyond hope, but nothing to lose) they will covert to females. So, until I see the results of a proper grow from beginning to end, sans accumulator, I table further discussion about it. In the past I have been a stay-at-home 'mom', but my schedule is likely to change soon and I won't be able to keep a close eye on everything.

hth
 
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Atomizer

Well-Known Member
I guess you can`t see the wood for the trees :)
The components reduce the risk of failure as the solenoid and tank are designed to take all the strain. Your plants are completely reliant on the pump..a pump that wasnt designed to cycle upwards of 1900 times a day ;) The 6800 runs 4 times a day for 15minutes so it gets a very easy life considering that running time will service twelve of your 30gal chambers.
my schedule is likely to change soon and i won`t be able to keep a close eye on everything
Click to expand...
All the more reason to consider an accumulator imho, a full 6.6gal tank (90-120psi) would run your setup for 1.5days without recharging (assuming 2 nozzles on a 1sec/45sec cycle). You could build in an additional safety net simply by setting the air precharge to 60psi, in normal circumstances the pressure switch would recharge the tank when it dropped to 90psi. In the unlikely event of the pump dying, the tank will continue to supply the nozzles until the tank pressure drops to 60psi..which gives you another 1.5 days grace.
 
PetFlora

PetFlora

Well-Known Member
LOLs

So far (2 years of near steady use) your argument about pump life has proven to be a non-factor. Being aware that it might be, I purchased a back up. But since wear is one of your primary arguments, what about the life expectancy of the solenoids, bladder, PRVs, and whatever else is cycling ~192Xs a day @ 45 second intervals 24/7?

I have owned several ROs for 20+ years for my cooking and drinking water, which as you know has a storage bladder. I have had loss of pressure issues, of course one could catch that with a pressure gauge, and one storage tank bladder burst inside- zero output. The possibility of overlooking this for a few days is, IMHO, high: long after the damage has been done to the illusive root hairs, if not the laterals themselves.

To me, the biggest pro for an accum is that it provides near instantaneous full on pressure that quickly fills the pod with a >50 psi mist. I don't think that benefit can be understated. It is likely the biggest reason for inviting root hairs to the party. If I can't readily achieve them on my next grow (I have had them and lost them) then it may be time to pony up. First I will invest in building an insulated box around my pod (plan to do that ASAP) then a chiller as I won't be home to change out frozen jugs.

hth
 
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Atomizer

Well-Known Member
The pressure switch only operates 4 times per day, the bladder in a 232psi accumulator will last for years running at 120psi but either way its field replaceable for minimal cost. The solenoids are rated 232psi with a maximum duty of 10 cycles per minute, they will also last for years and if not..the coil is replaceable. If and when your pump dies you`ll end up throwing good money after bad to buy another backup and you won`t be gaining anything performance wise.
 
PetFlora

PetFlora

Well-Known Member
and the beat goes on. lol

Would love to meet you one day and toss a few/vape a few. Clearly, you have Mad Growing Skillz, and are a vg debater. As always, I really appreciate your input.
 
Mike Young

Mike Young

Well-Known Member
Thanks for the pic atomizer. The fittings that connect the 1/4" tubing to the pump... Are those 3/8" male to JG? My pump has 1/2" male ports. I don't think they make a 1/2" to 1/4" JG reducer, do they? I'm trying to figure out what fittings I'm gonna need, so I can get them ordered... Any advice would be welcomed. Great posts so far. Thanks!
 
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greendog77

Member
Atomizer said:
I don`t understand why you think accumulators are only for commercial setups, they offer huge a benefit to any hp aero grow. As far as being impractical they are very easy to set up.

Here`s a pic GD77 might find useful when he sets up his 6800, this arrangement is for a 350gal, 24 nozzle outdoor chamber (dtw feed method) but it could just as easily be used to run a 20gal chamber.


The total cost of the hardware in the pic was under $200. You do have to look around for bargains to get it that low but it includes everything except the nozzles and the accumulator.

I integrated a 12v cycle timer with the 12v solenoid inside the black box so i only need to run a single 12v dc cable outside to the chamber along with a single 1/4" tube from the accumulator. The accumulator (6.6gal, 16-bar) cost $140 but i`m sure you can buy 8.5-bar (125psi) tanks in the states for a lot less than that.
Click to expand...
THanks Atomizer, where did you get that pressure switch? Most places that sell the aquatec pumps also have switches, do you have experience with these? are they accurate and reliable? If anyone knows where to get a timer with <1 sec on intervals, please post! If I can't get a timer with shorter intervals than one second, I guess I'll have to go with one nozzle, and double the chamber size, as the biocontrol nozzles seem to have the lowest flowrate out there.
Also, are you sure the CAP timers are no good? Have you one fail on you? The one TF posted is $30 more, and I'm not sure I'll be able to wire it correctly.


Tree Farmer, what kind of timing, chamber size, pressure, and number of nozzles do you use with the biocontrol type?
 
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greendog77

Member
OK, the Pj6 has lower flow then the biocontrols, just over half at 100p.s.i. 25 clams each, plus $15 shipping on ebay. ANyone got a cheaper source?
 
A

Atomizer

Well-Known Member
Mike Young said:
Thanks for the pic atomizer. The fittings that connect the 1/4" tubing to the pump... Are those 3/8" male to JG? My pump has 1/2" male ports. I don't think they make a 1/2" to 1/4" JG reducer, do they? I'm trying to figure out what fittings I'm gonna need, so I can get them ordered... Any advice would be welcomed. Great posts so far. Thanks!
Click to expand...
I bought the 6800 with 1/4" JG pushfit cartridges but you should be able to buy a 1/2" female thread-1/4" pushfit adapter similar to the grey coloured (3/4bsp-1/4" JG) jobby fitted to the solenoid in the pic. I use the 1/2" version on my "other" pump. The accumulator has a 3/4"bsp male threaded outlet so i use the 3/4" type adapter for that too.
The pressure switch uses a 1/4" female thread, the tee has a 1/4" male thread and two 1/4" pushfits. The rest are just basic JG 1/4" tee`s. Its simple and leak free.

GD77
If you look around the forums on the net you`ll notice hp aero has killed several cap timers and they all seemed to fail in the off position. The 422 TF linked is track tested and proven to work so i reckon that alone is probably worth the extra $30, the wiring is pretty straightforward if you buy the octal base. The pressure switch in the pic is an Italtechnica PM-12, i don`t know if they are available over in the states but they cost the equivalent of $41.
 
A

Atomizer

Well-Known Member
PetFlora said:
To me, the biggest pro for an accum is that it provides near instantaneous full on pressure that quickly fills the pod with a >50 psi mist. I don't think that benefit can be understated.
Click to expand...
That instant pressure also provides a consistant droplet size range and with the solenoid located close to the nozzle, very tight control over the misting duration with zero run-on or pressure drop...the pump approach is missing all three. I honestly don`t see where you can make any further adjustments that will improve what you are seeing now without a hardware upgrade. The main issue is your timing cycle is down to the absolute limit of what your pump can manage and its delivering ramping pressure and mist run-on.
 
PetFlora

PetFlora

Well-Known Member
Picked up a roll of Reflectix Insulation (24" X 25 ft) from Lowes today. It was $32.82. Plan to wrap my pod/s ASAP

Also, they have a seed starter kit (32 sites) with dome AND heater for $32

hth
 
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greendog77

Member
GD77
If you look around the forums on the net you`ll notice hp aero has killed several cap timers and they all seemed to fail in the off position. The 422 TF linked is track tested and proven to work so i reckon that alone is probably worth the extra $30, the wiring is pretty straightforward if you buy the octal base. The pressure switch in the pic is an Italtechnica PM-12, i don`t know if they are available over in the states but they cost the equivalent of $41.[/QUOTE]

Thanks for the info, failing in the off position is not an option.
I'm in Canada, BTW.
IF the Bete PJ6 is about half the flowrate of the bioncontrol nozzle, then using just one at the same frequency and duration should be about right for that size container. Do you have a formula you use to figure this out, or is it by experience?
 
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greendog77

Member
PetFlora said:
GD77: I have a lot of experience using 18 G totes. They are excellent for cloning/vegging but too small for more than 2 mature plants, even small AF types.

Even if flowering straight from rooted clones? And misting with around 50 micron droplets, thus no long dangling roots? My 18G are 18" wided 23" long, and 15" deep.
Click to expand...
 
PetFlora

PetFlora

Well-Known Member
Atomizer: I found specs on my mist head from Ecologic Technologies Low Flow Wide Angle Misting Nozzle (red) - Emits approximately. 1/2 - 1 ounce per minute. Covers approximately 24"x 24" from a height of 3 feet. which is 30-60 ounces per hour or 0.25-0.50 gph, not 0.92 as was printed elsewhere. How does that change wet cycle/number of heads in a 30G pod?

Also I saw a post from Bob S where he asked you about nute temps inside an accumulator but no answer. My room gets 86-90 degrees in the summer, but we hit that 2 weeks ago for a week. Thankfully, heat and humidity have returned to normal for this time of year, but isn't tank temp important?
 
PetFlora

PetFlora

Well-Known Member
greendog77 said:
PetFlora said:
GD77: I have a lot of experience using 18 G totes. They are excellent for cloning/vegging but too small for more than 2 mature plants, even small AF types.

Even if flowering straight from rooted clones? And misting with around 50 micron droplets, thus no long dangling roots? My 18G are 18" wided 23" long, and 15" deep.
Click to expand...


GD77: I just finished Lonely Girl (~15" AF) in an 18G. Her roots just barely touched bottom, most were hanging out up high; they actually looked like a pony tail. Even 3 of these plants would be a stretch in an 18G. The entire surface area of each root ball needs to be misted so there should be ample room between each root mass for the mist to float and circulate. hth
Click to expand...
 
A

Atomizer

Well-Known Member
PetFlora said:
Atomizer: I found specs on my mist head from Ecologic Technologies Low Flow Wide Angle Misting Nozzle (red) - Emits approximately. 1/2 - 1 ounce per minute. Covers approximately 24"x 24" from a height of 3 feet. which is 30-60 ounces per hour or 0.25-0.50 gph, not 0.92 as was printed elsewhere. How does that change wet cycle/number of heads in a 30G pod?

Also I saw a post from Bob S where he asked you about nute temps inside an accumulator but no answer. My room gets 86-90 degrees in the summer, but we hit that 2 weeks ago for a week. Thankfully, heat and humidity have returned to normal for this time of year, but isn't tank temp important?
Click to expand...
It doesn`t make any difference what the nozzle spec says (pick a number) what matters is how much flow you physically measure from the nozzles inside your chamber with your pump. You already did that and it wasn`t close to 0.92gph.

Ever tried to take a temp reading inside a sealed steel tank thats at 220psi? its not easy :) The temp depends what the nutes go in at and where the tank is located but it won`t exceed room temp.
Its very easy to cool a few ml of nutes down en route to the solenoid, my outdoor setup uses a 6gal coolbox with ~100ft coil of 1/4" tube submerged in mains cold water. The coil goes between the accumulator and the solenoid so it sits at the tank pressure and adds to the overall storage capacity. The coolbox is located at one end of the 350gal chamber and there`s about 9" of insulated 1/4" tube from the coolbox to the solenoid. (EDIT: I have two coolers that are identical, the indoor setup cooler uses the 1/4" tube, the outdoor cooler uses a 40ft coil of 1/2" id tube, overall coil is 8.5" od x 13" long.)
The nutes take at least an hour to travel through the coil depending on the timing cycle. The water in the coolbox is partially replaced by a solenoid fed from the cold mains (outside tap @75psi) controlled by a thermostat. When the coolbox water exceeds 60F the solenoid opens, fresh cold water flows into the bottom and the warmer water at the top of the coolbox leaves via the overflow. Considering the cooler is located outside it only runs twice a day. The reason is the nutes don`t come back warm as its dtw and the small amount in the 100ft coil doesn`t add much heat to the cool water which inside in a well insulated coolbox..

Necessity is the mother of invention..it may give you a few ideas.
 
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