Theism= Thought Addiction

Dalek Supreme

Well-Known Member
Theism is an addiction of thoughts via the "Holy Dopamine Ghost". Theists mistake cocktails of attention getting, motivational, and learning for reward neurochemicals (evolved for energy gathering, and species perpetuation) as a paranormal event/contact (Holy Spirit, Divine Spark, Nirvana and many other superstitious names labeled by cultures through the millennias). These neurological processes reinforce neural pathways (bridging literal gaps) in the brain in order to repeat thoughts, and behaviours (building a cognitive wall). Dopamine in varying levels is also related to creativity, patternicity, making nonsense make sense, and hallucinations (involuntary movements, tactile/feeling embraced, and speaking in tongues are also forms of hallucinations). Also see "Dopamine Hypothesis". Note that Paul was schizophrenic (2 Cor. 12:9), the early church was encouraged to hallucinate (Gal. 3:1), and perform glossolalia (1 Cor. 12:10).

What would the average person experience if they believed they won a million dollar scratch-off ticket? That same feeling through thoughts (like believing outlandish conspiracy theories, or some other information above the masses to feel as if one is clever to believe it) is also achieved by drugs like alcohol, nicotine, and cocaine (Dopamergic release). Now imagine that same person refusing to look at the back of the ticket that reads "Redeem at 123 fake st Anywhere USA". Now apply this analogy to someone believing John 3:16 with a multitude support group reaffirming, and hand holding for the belief. Basically it's the ancient Mesolimbic System (base instincts/emotions) overriding the modern (rationalizing) Frontal Cortex (notice how some people are more driven by pleasures, or fears, or anger as if a constant need to take things to the next level?). Also keep in mind how anorexics actually perceive themselves visually as being obese despite being a walking skeleton, or chronic hoarders being completely oblivious of the situation they put themselves in with safety, and health hazards. I knew an alcoholic who refused to see the yellow of urea in the whites of his eyes due to his organs shutting down (he took his protests of "I don't have a problem" to the urn that keeps his ashes).

Note that emotional, and, or physical stresses release the Holy Dopamine Ghost (fervent prayer/intense rituals/tragic loss, and parent to newborn, or mate bonding/falling in love). I had an experience after 48 hours of sleep deprivation working intently on a project (no drugs involved). Long story short I thought a divine presence interacted with me. Everything good/bad in the world made sense, and served a purpose (patternicity from flooded learning/reward centers). Everything had an aura like sheen around things when I went outside (The sun's light saturated my sense of sight that was dealing with a traffic jam of neurochemicals trying to find the right place to go hence the hallucination). Luckily for me being criticality thinking (truth matters more than fantasy) made me realise it was internally induced (for one I realized the experience was very simular to the time I tried Valium over a decade earlier) which led me to research what happened, and answer a lot of questions I had for holders of irrational beliefs (especially their immunity to reason, and flies to honey like behavior to nonsensical word salads, or empty feel good statements that supports in their own minds what they want to believe).

The Holy Dopamine Ghost is one hell of a drug, but it boils down to instincts. The bugs that fly into a bug zapper cannot help it. Long ago their ancestors in a thick dark canopied forest flew towards a leak of light. There they found more nutrients to gather, and more opportunity to pass their genes than the darker zone provided. So that instinct of following the light was beneficial to pass on as well (not that bugs are cognizant of what the sun is). When one believes that the universe was made for them with a reward waiting for them? Then as far as the brain is concerned, it's that ape like ancestor of ours that found that valley with all the food it can eat, and a bunch of willing females with little, or no challenging males to contend with. Thoughts are just as addictive as drugs while some can rationalise from addiction, but others are ensnared.

Think how some religious texts commands death for nonbelievers (artificial selection at it's worse). Just imagine being on Easter island long ago. When the people were chopping all the trees down (to use as rollers for transport) for their obsessive stone statue ancestor worship. Imagine only you saying "Hey. We got here by canoe, but you're using up all the material to make more conoes. What if we need to get out of here?". Would they have thrown you off a cliff for insulting the ancestors? Easter island is a microcosm for our planet, so remember that European explorers found the remaining inhabitants a mess on a treeless island. Theism just induces slow thinking (thoughts are filtered to uphold belief) in which a placebo of comfort turns minds away from reality (an ever increasing reality that needs notice).

Test to see how people push what they find pleasurable onto others. Try eating leftovers cold in front of people when there's a microwave, or stove nearby. If you sometimes have drinks with friends? Try refraining one time with just an indifference attitude to drinking when confronted, and watch their reaction. Find other creative ways to be the odd one out in not partaking in what others find pleasurable. There's psychological factors as well, but that's soft science compared to evidenced neurology.

Check out the science with some history in the playlist below (also the description area for links, or future ones). If you find it sound after your own research, and worth spreading? Please do so. Help educate people not yet in this cognitive pitfall inherent in our evolution (an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure). I see very very few people making this connection, and there's others I get fighting against it (red herrings/strawmans/poisoning the well) that are not even Theists (find out for yourself). One common rebuttal by Theists is "Then that's how God interacts with us". I counteract with "Then God is also responsible for porn addiction, drug addiction, and all other debaucheries". Help fight "Imaginationism" addiction via the "Holy Dopamine Ghost", or at least help coin the two previously paraphrased words (note "Imaginationism" was a response to Theist that accused me of "Materialism". Thanks for the interest.

The Holy Dopamine Ghost (Thoughts gets you high):

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLQATeZAnm87BaJjBtM1vMIq_gHRmBq3ie
 

Buddha2525

Well-Known Member
What does that matter? Sure it"s fun to screw with people on here. But out in the real world let them be.
 

Buddha2525

Well-Known Member
The real world you mean where such thinking effects policies that effects everyone.
Your thinking is why polices affects everyone. When one type of thought says another can't think that way, it leads to conflict, then violence, and finally all out war.

When two thoughts leave each other alone, and coexist, not interfering, peace happens. But such thoughts must come freely and we are given the opportunity to leave just as freely.

Yet even if the choice of free association exists, another thought objects on the absurd notion they know what you really want, and the systematic oppression from their point of view is unfairly tricking you.
 

Rob Roy

Well-Known Member
Theism is an addiction of thoughts via the "Holy Dopamine Ghost". Theists mistake cocktails of attention getting, motivational, and learning for reward neurochemicals (evolved for energy gathering, and species perpetuation) as a paranormal event/contact (Holy Spirit, Divine Spark, Nirvana and many other superstitious names labeled by cultures through the millennias). These neurological processes reinforce neural pathways (bridging literal gaps) in the brain in order to repeat thoughts, and behaviours (building a cognitive wall). Dopamine in varying levels is also related to creativity, patternicity, making nonsense make sense, and hallucinations (involuntary movements, tactile/feeling embraced, and speaking in tongues are also forms of hallucinations). Also see "Dopamine Hypothesis". Note that Paul was schizophrenic (2 Cor. 12:9), the early church was encouraged to hallucinate (Gal. 3:1), and perform glossolalia (1 Cor. 12:10).

What would the average person experience if they believed they won a million dollar scratch-off ticket? That same feeling through thoughts (like believing outlandish conspiracy theories, or some other information above the masses to feel as if one is clever to believe it) is also achieved by drugs like alcohol, nicotine, and cocaine (Dopamergic release). Now imagine that same person refusing to look at the back of the ticket that reads "Redeem at 123 fake st Anywhere USA". Now apply this analogy to someone believing John 3:16 with a multitude support group reaffirming, and hand holding for the belief. Basically it's the ancient Mesolimbic System (base instincts/emotions) overriding the modern (rationalizing) Frontal Cortex (notice how some people are more driven by pleasures, or fears, or anger as if a constant need to take things to the next level?). Also keep in mind how anorexics actually perceive themselves visually as being obese despite being a walking skeleton, or chronic hoarders being completely oblivious of the situation they put themselves in with safety, and health hazards. I knew an alcoholic who refused to see the yellow of urea in the whites of his eyes due to his organs shutting down (he took his protests of "I don't have a problem" to the urn that keeps his ashes).

Note that emotional, and, or physical stresses release the Holy Dopamine Ghost (fervent prayer/intense rituals/tragic loss, and parent to newborn, or mate bonding/falling in love). I had an experience after 48 hours of sleep deprivation working intently on a project (no drugs involved). Long story short I thought a divine presence interacted with me. Everything good/bad in the world made sense, and served a purpose (patternicity from flooded learning/reward centers). Everything had an aura like sheen around things when I went outside (The sun's light saturated my sense of sight that was dealing with a traffic jam of neurochemicals trying to find the right place to go hence the hallucination). Luckily for me being criticality thinking (truth matters more than fantasy) made me realise it was internally induced (for one I realized the experience was very simular to the time I tried Valium over a decade earlier) which led me to research what happened, and answer a lot of questions I had for holders of irrational beliefs (especially their immunity to reason, and flies to honey like behavior to nonsensical word salads, or empty feel good statements that supports in their own minds what they want to believe).

The Holy Dopamine Ghost is one hell of a drug, but it boils down to instincts. The bugs that fly into a bug zapper cannot help it. Long ago their ancestors in a thick dark canopied forest flew towards a leak of light. There they found more nutrients to gather, and more opportunity to pass their genes than the darker zone provided. So that instinct of following the light was beneficial to pass on as well (not that bugs are cognizant of what the sun is). When one believes that the universe was made for them with a reward waiting for them? Then as far as the brain is concerned, it's that ape like ancestor of ours that found that valley with all the food it can eat, and a bunch of willing females with little, or no challenging males to contend with. Thoughts are just as addictive as drugs while some can rationalise from addiction, but others are ensnared.

Think how some religious texts commands death for nonbelievers (artificial selection at it's worse). Just imagine being on Easter island long ago. When the people were chopping all the trees down (to use as rollers for transport) for their obsessive stone statue ancestor worship. Imagine only you saying "Hey. We got here by canoe, but you're using up all the material to make more conoes. What if we need to get out of here?". Would they have thrown you off a cliff for insulting the ancestors? Easter island is a microcosm for our planet, so remember that European explorers found the remaining inhabitants a mess on a treeless island. Theism just induces slow thinking (thoughts are filtered to uphold belief) in which a placebo of comfort turns minds away from reality (an ever increasing reality that needs notice).

Test to see how people push what they find pleasurable onto others. Try eating leftovers cold in front of people when there's a microwave, or stove nearby. If you sometimes have drinks with friends? Try refraining one time with just an indifference attitude to drinking when confronted, and watch their reaction. Find other creative ways to be the odd one out in not partaking in what others find pleasurable. There's psychological factors as well, but that's soft science compared to evidenced neurology.

Check out the science with some history in the playlist below (also the description area for links, or future ones). If you find it sound after your own research, and worth spreading? Please do so. Help educate people not yet in this cognitive pitfall inherent in our evolution (an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure). I see very very few people making this connection, and there's others I get fighting against it (red herrings/strawmans/poisoning the well) that are not even Theists (find out for yourself). One common rebuttal by Theists is "Then that's how God interacts with us". I counteract with "Then God is also responsible for porn addiction, drug addiction, and all other debaucheries". Help fight "Imaginationism" addiction via the "Holy Dopamine Ghost", or at least help coin the two previously paraphrased words (note "Imaginationism" was a response to Theist that accused me of "Materialism". Thanks for the interest.

The Holy Dopamine Ghost (Thoughts gets you high):

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLQATeZAnm87BaJjBtM1vMIq_gHRmBq3ie

Ghost train haze is some holy dopamine.
 

Dalek Supreme

Well-Known Member
images.jpeg
Remember that Faith is a powerful tool that takes advantage of the mind.

"Genetic and behavioral factors influencing religiously motivated behavior appear related to dopamine metabolism and signaling. Inclination toward religious behavior and motivation has been associated with a polymorphism on the dopamine receptor gene DRD4 (Comings, Gonzales, Saucier, Johnson, & MacMurray, 2000;Sasaki et al., 2013). Acquired disorders of dopamine physiology also show links to religious behaviors."

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5478470/

"Religious and spiritual experiences activate the brain reward circuits in much the same way as love, sex, gambling, drugs and music, report researchers at theUniversity of Utah School of Medicine. The findings will be published Nov. 29 in the journalSocial Neuroscience."

https://unews.utah.edu/this-is-your-brain-on-god/

Hyperactivity of Dopamine is related to schizophrenia/hallucinations.

"Dopamine, adrenaline, and noradrenaline are neurotransmitters that belong to the catecholamine family. Dopamine is produced in the substantia nigra and ventral tegmental regions of the brain, and dopamine alterations are related to schizophrenia (1, 2). Dopaminergic projections are divided into the nigrostriatal, mesolimbic, and mesocortical systems. Impairments in the dopamine system result from dopamine dysfunctions in the substantia nigra, ventral tegmental region, striatum, prefrontal cortex, and hippocampus (35). The “original dopamine hypothesis” states that hyperactive dopamine transmission results in schizophrenic symptoms."

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4032934/

"Dopamine
In schizophrenia (SCZ), there is evidence that very high levels of dopamine in the limbic system play a major role in emergence of hallucinations and delusions. Antipsychotic medications, which block central dopamine activity, alleviate the hallucinations of psychosis. Drugs with strong dopaminergic effect, such as L-dopa, methylphenidate, bromocriptine, pramipexole and piribedil, may induce hallucinations. D-amphetamine, a direct dopamine agonist, may also induce psychosis and hallucinations. The fact that hallucinations were also described in Parkinson’s disease before the introduction of L-dopa indicates that not only hyperdopaminergic states but also hypodopaminergic states, presumably due to progressive loss of dopamine projections to the cortex, can induce hallucinations."

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2996210/

Galatians 3:1-5

"1 You foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you? It was before your eyes that Jesus Christ was publicly exhibited as crucified! 2 The only thing I want to learn from you is this: Did you receive the Spirit by doing the works of the law or by believing what you heard? 3 Are you so foolish? Having started with the Spirit, are you now ending with the flesh? 4 Did you experience so much for nothing? — if it really was for nothing. 5 Well then, does God supply you with the Spirit and work miracles among you by your doing the works of the law, or by your believing what you heard?"
 

persian.toker

Active Member
I'm not faithful, but as of recently, nor am I an atheist. More accurately, I have no reason to believe there is a God, and plenty of reasons to not associate with modern day atheists (whom I call the pseudo thinkers of the age of youtube). I urge you to leave the faithful to their faith as doing otherwise serves no purpose (you can not affect the policy makers with a post on roll it up) and try to do your share in furthering the scientific cause, so that maybe we are one day immune from the side effects of faith (global warming is a good example). Science is at its' infancy, and needs nurturing and dedication, not internet trolling.
 

NanoGadget

Well-Known Member
I'd have no issue leaving people to their superstitious if they'd stop trying to turn their archaic views into legislation that negatively impacts us all. While it is true that a post on RIU isn't going to change the socio-political state of things in the world, neither will complacency and indifference.

Frankly, I don't want a world run by theocrats who think that their magical sky daddy comands them to kill other humans who believe in a different magical sky daddy. Or continues to ignore environmental devastation because they think Jesus is coming to take all the believers to magical sky Disneyland.
 

OPfarmer

Well-Known Member
Way too much thinking for me!

We live in a theocracatic world. For some reason it's in human nature. Don't care for it myself, and get a kick out of the term "sky daddy".... However, I'd say don't take the bait of thinking you, me or anyone or anything else has a higher road.
Plenty of real fine folks that have sky daddies in their lives. Feel the good in the individual. Reward it by recipricating the good... The Golden rule is pretty transcendent.

Peace and love ..!
Yep..
 

doogledore

Well-Known Member
For those of you who have trouble believing everything can be reduced to physics and chemistry please check out this vid from min 30 on...you can watch the whole thing but mainly wanted to highlight Lennox's retelling of the dinner table story with his biochemist colleague:

You can also check out his debate with Dawkins, classic!
 

Dalek Supreme

Well-Known Member
For those of you who have trouble believing everything can be reduced to physics and chemistry please check out this vid from min 30 on...you can watch the whole thing but mainly wanted to highlight Lennox's retelling of the dinner table story with his biochemist colleague:

You can also check out his debate with Dawkins, classic!
Ok. Let me do brain surgery on you. Then see how your material brain works after that.

Imaginationism keeps people's brains shackled.


Theists are thought addicts via the Holy Dopamine Ghost (Dopamine Reward System). Imagine the euphoria experienced by the average person for believing they won a million dollars. Now imagine someone having the same sensations, but being convinced it's a paranormal contact for believing John 3:16.

The Holy Dopamine Ghost (Thoughts are addictive):

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLQATeZAnm87BaJjBtM1vMIq_gHRmBq3ie

"Genetic and behavioral factors influencing religiously motivated behavior appear related to dopamine metabolism and signaling. Inclination toward religious behavior and motivation has been associated with a polymorphism on the dopamine receptor gene DRD4 (Comings, Gonzales, Saucier, Johnson, & MacMurray, 2000;Sasaki et al., 2013). Acquired disorders of dopamine physiology also show links to religious behaviors."

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5478470/

"Religious and spiritual experiences activate the brain reward circuits in much the same way as love, sex, gambling, drugs and music, report researchers at theUniversity of Utah School of Medicine. The findings will be published Nov. 29 in the journalSocial Neuroscience."

https://unews.utah.edu/this-is-your-brain-on-god/

These neurological processes reinforce neural pathways (bridging literal gaps) in the brain in order to repeat thoughts, and behaviours like energy gathering (eating) along with specie perpetuation (sex). Dopamine in varying levels is also related to creativity, patternicity, making nonsense make sense, and hallucinations (involuntary movements, tactile/feeling embraced, and speaking in tongues are also forms of hallucinations). Also see "Dopamine Hypothesis". Note that Paul was schizophrenic (2 Cor. 12:9), the early church was encouraged to hallucinate (Gal. 3:1-5), and perform glossolalia (1 Cor. 12:10).

"Dopamine, adrenaline, and noradrenaline are neurotransmitters that belong to the catecholamine family. Dopamine is produced in the substantia nigra and ventral tegmental regions of the brain, and dopamine alterations are related to schizophrenia (1, 2). Dopaminergic projections are divided into the nigrostriatal, mesolimbic, and mesocortical systems. Impairments in the dopamine system result from dopamine dysfunctions in the substantia nigra, ventral tegmental region, striatum, prefrontal cortex, and hippocampus (3–5). The “original dopamine hypothesis” states that hyperactive dopamine transmission results in schizophrenic symptoms."

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4032934/

"Dopamine In schizophrenia (SCZ), there is evidence that very high levels of dopamine in the limbic system play a major role in emergence of hallucinations and delusions. Antipsychotic medications, which block central dopamine activity, alleviate the hallucinations of psychosis. Drugs with strong dopaminergic effect, such as L-dopa, methylphenidate, bromocriptine, pramipexole and piribedil, may induce hallucinations. D-amphetamine, a direct dopamine agonist, may also induce psychosis and hallucinations."

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2996210/

"Tibetan mystics have long practiced a method to create sentient beings from the power of concentrated thought."

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.vice.com/amp/en_ca/article/exmqzz/tulpamancy-internet-subculture-892

Mesolimbic System (instinctive ancient part of the brain) overrides the Frontal Cortex (rationalizing modern) building a cognitive wall.

Dopamine Enhances Optimism Bias

"Here, we show that administration of a drug that enhances dopaminergic function (dihydroxy-L-phenylalanine; L-DOPA) increases an optimism bias. This effect is due to L-DOPA impairing the ability to update belief in response to undesirable information about the future."

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3424419/

https://skepticsannotatedbible.com
 

New Age United

Well-Known Member
Ok. Let me do brain surgery on you. Then see how your material brain works after that.

Imaginationism keeps people's brains shackled.


Theists are thought addicts via the Holy Dopamine Ghost (Dopamine Reward System). Imagine the euphoria experienced by the average person for believing they won a million dollars. Now imagine someone having the same sensations, but being convinced it's a paranormal contact for believing John 3:16.

The Holy Dopamine Ghost (Thoughts are addictive):

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLQATeZAnm87BaJjBtM1vMIq_gHRmBq3ie

"Genetic and behavioral factors influencing religiously motivated behavior appear related to dopamine metabolism and signaling. Inclination toward religious behavior and motivation has been associated with a polymorphism on the dopamine receptor gene DRD4 (Comings, Gonzales, Saucier, Johnson, & MacMurray, 2000;Sasaki et al., 2013). Acquired disorders of dopamine physiology also show links to religious behaviors."

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5478470/

"Religious and spiritual experiences activate the brain reward circuits in much the same way as love, sex, gambling, drugs and music, report researchers at theUniversity of Utah School of Medicine. The findings will be published Nov. 29 in the journalSocial Neuroscience."

https://unews.utah.edu/this-is-your-brain-on-god/

These neurological processes reinforce neural pathways (bridging literal gaps) in the brain in order to repeat thoughts, and behaviours like energy gathering (eating) along with specie perpetuation (sex). Dopamine in varying levels is also related to creativity, patternicity, making nonsense make sense, and hallucinations (involuntary movements, tactile/feeling embraced, and speaking in tongues are also forms of hallucinations). Also see "Dopamine Hypothesis". Note that Paul was schizophrenic (2 Cor. 12:9), the early church was encouraged to hallucinate (Gal. 3:1-5), and perform glossolalia (1 Cor. 12:10).

"Dopamine, adrenaline, and noradrenaline are neurotransmitters that belong to the catecholamine family. Dopamine is produced in the substantia nigra and ventral tegmental regions of the brain, and dopamine alterations are related to schizophrenia (1, 2). Dopaminergic projections are divided into the nigrostriatal, mesolimbic, and mesocortical systems. Impairments in the dopamine system result from dopamine dysfunctions in the substantia nigra, ventral tegmental region, striatum, prefrontal cortex, and hippocampus (3–5). The “original dopamine hypothesis” states that hyperactive dopamine transmission results in schizophrenic symptoms."

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4032934/

"Dopamine In schizophrenia (SCZ), there is evidence that very high levels of dopamine in the limbic system play a major role in emergence of hallucinations and delusions. Antipsychotic medications, which block central dopamine activity, alleviate the hallucinations of psychosis. Drugs with strong dopaminergic effect, such as L-dopa, methylphenidate, bromocriptine, pramipexole and piribedil, may induce hallucinations. D-amphetamine, a direct dopamine agonist, may also induce psychosis and hallucinations."

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2996210/

"Tibetan mystics have long practiced a method to create sentient beings from the power of concentrated thought."

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.vice.com/amp/en_ca/article/exmqzz/tulpamancy-internet-subculture-892

Mesolimbic System (instinctive ancient part of the brain) overrides the Frontal Cortex (rationalizing modern) building a cognitive wall.

Dopamine Enhances Optimism Bias

"Here, we show that administration of a drug that enhances dopaminergic function (dihydroxy-L-phenylalanine; L-DOPA) increases an optimism bias. This effect is due to L-DOPA impairing the ability to update belief in response to undesirable information about the future."

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3424419/

https://skepticsannotatedbible.com
Yes I am schizophrenic and I take risperidone which is a dopamine inhibitor, the hallucinations and paranoid delusions are gone now for 6 years after 2 psychotic episodes one lasting for 19 months. Methamphetamine and cocaine will both cause visual and auditory hallucinations if taken for longer than 12 hrs at fairly high doses, the paranoia returns aswell.
 

doogledore

Well-Known Member
"Imaginationism keeps people's brains shackled"

Is this why you provided me links to the "experts" who also happen to support your position? Simply having a position and supporting it with outside sources has not furthered the ideas in this dialogue, actually, it kinda lacks imagination.

I'll ask again: where does the meaning of the word Imaginationism come from? How do the bits and bytes that make up the word "Imaginationism" being displayed on your computer screen carry meaning to my brain? In other words how do I know what Imaginationism means? I've never met you or seen that word before, how did the information reach my brain?
 

Dalek Supreme

Well-Known Member
"Imaginationism keeps people's brains shackled"

Is this why you provided me links to the "experts" who also happen to support your position? Simply having a position and supporting it with outside sources has not furthered the ideas in this dialogue, actually, it kinda lacks imagination.

I'll ask again: where does the meaning of the word Imaginationism come from? How do the bits and bytes that make up the word "Imaginationism" being displayed on your computer screen carry meaning to my brain? In other words how do I know what Imaginationism means? I've never met you or seen that word before, how did the information reach my brain?
The word "Imaginationism" is something I made up in response to a Theist accusing Atheists of "Materialism".

I could give you the science of how the information went to your brain, but what's the point? Your video of John Lennox is ridiculous, and I question his account of the conversation (as far as the other person who we do not get to hear from reacted). Him saying "It's just information" is absurd. If someone at a dinner table deliberately (visibly leaned to one side) let loose a fart everyone at said table would be appalled. But if the farter said "It's just gas"? Would you be in awe, and accept it as something to ponder as you would for John Lennox?

The Holy Dopamine Ghost is why you're captivated by JL's non-answers. You're not stopping to think except that he's an old wise, and deeply spiritual grandpa.

The same of JL is what makes Jordan Peterson so popular. Emotional thinking is slow thinking (slow thinking btw is another thing I came up with to politely describe Theists).

Sam Harris Roasts Jordan Peterson's God with a Cookbook Analogy

 

Rob Roy

Well-Known Member
Theism just induces slow thinking (thoughts are filtered to uphold belief) in which a placebo of comfort turns minds away from reality (an ever increasing reality that needs notice).
"Thoughts are filtered to uphold belief." Exactly.

The inability (unwillingness?) of most people to distinguish between what is real and what is manipulation has lead us to where we are now, and holds us there...in a world that features contradictions in cultural systems as the status quo.
 

Flowki

Well-Known Member
The word "Imaginationism" is something I made up in response to a Theist accusing Atheists of "Materialism".

I could give you the science of how the information went to your brain, but what's the point? Your video of John Lennox is ridiculous, and I question his account of the conversation (as far as the other person who we do not get to hear from reacted). Him saying "It's just information" is absurd. If someone at a dinner table deliberately (visibly leaned to one side) let loose a fart everyone at said table would be appalled. But if the farter said "It's just gas"? Would you be in awe, and accept it as something to ponder as you would for John Lennox?

The Holy Dopamine Ghost is why you're captivated by JL's non-answers. You're not stopping to think except that he's an old wise, and deeply spiritual grandpa.

The same of JL is what makes Jordan Peterson so popular. Emotional thinking is slow thinking (slow thinking btw is another thing I came up with to politely describe Theists).

Sam Harris Roasts Jordan Peterson's God with a Cookbook Analogy

I'm fairly sure JP has stated a few times he does not actually believe in god, more so he is intrigued about the deeper meanings of the stories and what moral messages they hold while it is often an opinion of what he thinks those messages mean. If no god exists yet the stories told by various religions help people become better people I don't see why that is bad. On the other side of the coin religion was/is behind a lot of slaughtering but bare with me. Would you dare suggest that killings both historically and in present day would be less frequent had religion not existed?, surely we agree that is rhetorical.

For many people religion is the foundation of hope and for good reason, the thought of nothingness is terrifying. Why would one feel the need to belittle or strip that hope from a person when it actually serves no purpose to do so. You have no proof that an afterlife exists but equally you have no proof to suggest it does not, aside from the argument of no proof it exists is proof it does not. You have no credibility to judge another on what type of afterlife they choose to believe in. If you do this then you are no better than extreme believers who try to force a religion onto others.

One thing I can prove is that the world would be worse with no religion. The bar is set higher than any person can truly achieve and all cultures have slowly moved toward that carrot on a stick perfection. If the bar was simply to achieve what a human can achieve, we can all achieve misery. That bottomless pit is the reason religion was born. Back in the days of true struggle, how else could you make peace with the complete agony, those were bad times for people.

It's funny that when faced with a life threatening situation many people will call on a god when they have spent their whole life not really believing in one. Up till that point they had never felt true hopelessness. People going way back dealt with that more than we can imagine. Even still, many people today may be less able to deal with the thoughts of death, even though the chance of it on a daily basis is low. If religion brings them peace so be it, or should we seek to medicate them instead, maybe ''educate'' them to not be scared of potentially spending eternity in darkness.

Ehh I can't help it. I would be interested to read your ideas on an alternative. Religion for those who believe, more often than not points people toward a positive outcome. For those who don't believe, just about all common law derives from concepts of religion, and more often than not people follow those laws. What would you replace this with?.
 

Rob Roy

Well-Known Member
One thing I can prove is that the world would be worse with no religion.
How would you prove this ? What makes "the world" better or worse in your opinion? Do you mean human beings when you say world?

What are the characteristics of the religion in your claim ? Are you talking about human faith based beliefs that are illogical and/or not proven to date, inherently contradictory, etc?

Because I can think of one religion that mankind would be better off without.
 

Flowki

Well-Known Member
How would you prove this ? What makes "the world" better or worse in your opinion? Do you mean human beings when you say world?

What are the characteristics of the religion in your claim ? Are you talking about human faith based beliefs that are illogical and/or not proven to date, inherently contradictory, etc?

Because I can think of one religion that mankind would be better off without.
Firstly, I have no proof that any said religion is true, no more so than a believer of a specific religion can prove. I believe that one or all of the religions ''could'' be true, in that one might be the most accurate or that all are loosely correct in the idea of a higher being/purpose. I guess I am on the fence because as said, no proof of existence does not automatically equate to proof of none existence. The thing is, people think that because we know how the universe began it proves god/s don't exist. All it actually does is proves a contradiction in x/y/z religion that states how the planet was made. What the big bang does not disprove is that while the religion/s in question got it wrong, the big bang could have been an intentional push start from a higher order.
To add another spanner to it, the big bang is just a theory, that too is not proven. While we have tangible evidence to suggest it could be, think how wrong humans have been in the past. Also think of the irony involved with the idea that all religion is wrong while a person believes in the big bang theory and it too could be wrong.

I tend to see all religions as the same thing, humans trying to make sense of the unknown (death and the universe). More over, religious ideas have evolved just like humans, because they are conceived by humans, they are essentially a reference to our current moral being. For example back in the earlier days religious sacrifice was common place, but at the time, humans were a lot more violent in general, so theirs a correlation. Today, no main stream religion practices human sacrifice and that also coincides with the fact (like it or not) that humans are far less brutal than we use to be. But, this isn't to say all factions of religion have progressed since all cultures have not progressed.
In certain parts of the middle east people are still stoned to death, but that also coincides with the fact that those small pockets of brutal culture still exist. You could argue that religion is what is holding those pockets of cultures back and you may have a point to some degree. I would counter that by tasking you with finding me a tribe of people in current day or past who did not follow some form of religion, be it to animal or nature gods. You won't be able to do this and it nion objectively proves that humans and religion go hand in hand. So the question would be, is it religion that decides if a culture progresses or not?. I would say it has some effect, but the biggest factor in current cultural progression to me is technology AKA science.

But this is where it gets extremely tricky as I counter my current understanding of ''mainstream reasoning'' with my personal ideology. In a jungle (I forget where) is one of the few remaining ancient tribes/cultures. They have their own way of doing things, own religion etc. What they don't have is much in the way of science so if they get sick, they die (within reason). One could argue that living in this way, cut off from the rest of the world, believing in ridicules gods and dying from things avoidable in modern science is an example of religion/culture holding those people back. On the other hand one can argue that as modern people have less and less to do with religious practice and more to do with scientific practices, we have populated and consumed the planet to the point of mass extinction of other species.
So, while religion may slow the progress of man kind, they do in fact seem to deliberately or inadvertently strike a balance between man and nature. In other words the success of science is HIGHLY subjective, but this isn't something we often consider, if at all. It's a strange thing to consider that saving lives can equate to the same thing as ending lives. A balance has to be maintained, saving too many people (as a species) has objectively had negative effects on the planet and other inhabitants.
From here you need to step away from thinking only of humans and consider the 'rights' of nature.. or more over the consequences of over reaching with science. If we continue to be too good at saving our selves eventually the imbalance will result in billions dead. I won't jump on the climate thing but I fear the real danger we have as humans is knocking out a vital food chain link on the microscopic level, so much misery would come from that.

Sorry that it's long winded but it serves a purpose to answer your question.

I believe that religion on the whole served/s as a moral conscience, evolving with culture. A bit like left leaning political views on human rights as a loose comparison (not talking about communism o0). I then believe pure science represents capitalism in it's purist form, progression with little regard to ethics (we all know some of the horror science experiment stories).

More and more people drop religion, but more importantly we are losing the moralistic underlining stories based on real human experience. As we turn our back on religion we are also slowly losing well grounded morals, such as no stealing, excessive vanity, etc. We instead lean more into science and it's subjective benefits that have lead to mass use of planet resources, mass population, mass consumerism, mass waste and on it goes.

You could say that this is a product of capitalism but I'd strongly disagree. Capitalism would not be possible were it not for science (fire+industrial revolution). Had religion died out sooner and we got into science sooner I believe we would be at the point we are at now sooner. Currently I do not think the point we are at right now is good for the planet and thus us, so that's why I draw the conclusion that religion was and continues to be good for us. If we are able to extract the best parts of religion on a moral level then at-least it serves for something, maybe we can maintain this. The deeper fear I have is that the less we culturally fear in god/s and punishment of our ''sins'' the more we lean toward man and our own actions, we only fear the wrath of each other. When you get men who don't fear other men and also don't fear an afterlife punishment of sin, think about what they are capable of, I'd say our oil corporations are the result of that. On a much smaller and less technological scale I think we got to this point many many years ago and I think that is why religion was born, to put in check the actions of reckless men. Science is here, religion is fading but hopefully something of it's calibre will rise to get us in check before the planet is fucked.

It's a difficult theory to explain so I am sorry if it amounts to a waste of your time.
 
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