To Chill Or Not To Chill? Water chiller's

I use a CL-150 although mine was 170 shipped here is a link to one.

http://cgi.ebay.com/AquaEuroUSA-Mig...emQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item2ea8098741


To be 100% honest it isn't a great chiller but it works. I had a little cheap pump laying around anyway so I bought it and my room temps average close to 80 degrees and the chiller keeps my rez right about 70. With your room temp I'd assume it would be able to get your rez temps down to about 65-67 which would be awesome. There is also a less expensive one, the CL-85 which may do the trick for you since your temps aren't too horrible. 420fied over at 420mag is the one with the 4" pvc aero setup that mine is based off of and he said to use a chiller so I did. He seems to have good results so I trust his judgment.
 
snail240 said:
Water bottles are better unless you are full enviromental control. A chiller can only lower the temp of the res so much if its rasing all day a chiller wont even help that much just slow it down. You have to get your room temps in check then figure out if you need a chiller not the other way around.

If its to hot a chiller will only drop like 3 degrees if the water is constantly climbing in temp it will still be climbing with a cooler. If you cant keep your room at a constant temp water chiller isnt gonna help like you think unless you buy big bad ass ones not ones made for fish tanks.
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i understand what your saying my temps arent so bad anymore plus im running co2 now also so its pretty cool. even with the 1k back in there. and in a week or so i will have my full controller that runs my whole room
 
Dude, if it were me, Id go for the chiller. But Jeeze man, a good one is a lot of loot. I guess you have many things to factor, like your avg temp without a chiller and so on.. I know summer time temps here make a cooler a must, but theres always the poor mans way (ice block).. But that gets tired quick..Now that its fall, maybe you could spend that coin better some where else in your grow room, maybe not... A small ac unit may serve you as well and be cheaper, Im just sayin...
 
grodrowithme said:
i understand what your saying my temps arent so bad anymore plus im running co2 now also so its pretty cool. even with the 1k back in there. and in a week or so i will have my full controller that runs my whole room
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Then a chiller will shine for you even a cheaper one. If you buy a bad ass chiller it will cool your room to might be able to get rid of a/c.

I know about chillers because I use them in my reef tanks and those are the cheaper ones they sell in hydro stores. Even to cool a bad ass huge reef tank with hids you need industrial chillers to cool the tank.

You can learn alot of stuff about water cooling from reef keepers because water temp and parameters have to stay within certain degrees with drops and night.

Keep in mind I run 2x250 watt mh on one reef tank and they sit like 4 inches from the water and I have to cool that water or my reef dies.
 
The laws of physics sya that two objects in contact with each other will reach the same temp. This means if you have a resrvoir in a 80 degree room inveritably the reservoir water temp is going to end up at 80 degrees. There are ways around this. A few have been mentioned but only paratially. The most impoirtant aspect in regard to cooling without a chiller is evaporative cooling. ie a fan drawing air across the waters surface. Drawing not blowing. More efficient says the physicist. Alos mentioned was that at most the temperatut re drop willbe to 5 degreesbelow the roon temp where the reseroir is located. Not entioned is colling the water out side the room where the reservoir is stored. Doing such will allow for colling to at least five degrees below the air temperature where the cooling is taking place. There are several ways to easily accomplish this with the choices being the stealth level needed. Consider if the stealth need is minimal that ypu can have a small reservoir just hust higher than your present reservoir placed out side your grow area. Pump water up and into the second reservoir and place a uniseal in the side with an overflow pie to allow excess water to flow back to the regular reservoir. Place a fan over this second reservoir drawing air across the waters surface This actually works best if it is done with a reservoir with a lid. Cut a slot or a series of holes just above the high water mark set by the drain you placed in the side of the reservoir. This hole fr or the drains should be near the top of the reservoir so that only a few inches of air space is between the surface of the water and the lid. A simple muffin fan or two is adequate for air movement. This will keep your reservoir water tempa t aprroximattely 5 degrees below the out side rooms air temperature. If you need additional stealth then use an aquariy um for the second reservoir woth a fan over the top of it to coll the aquarium water. Then pump water with a small pump in a circulatinig loopetween the aquarium and the reservoir. Instaed of pumping water into the reservoir buy a piece of titanium tubing to be placed in the reservoir. Push the tubing tightly over each end of the tubing so that aquarium water flows through the vinyl tubing then the titanium tubing and back through vinyl tubing to the aquarium. Oh yeah throw a gold fish or something in the aquarium.

If you really serious about growing you can put together a much better large chiller (1 hp) or about a fourth the cost of buying a comparable one or half the cost of a cheap one of that size. And the compressor would be outside instead of inside. A 1 hp chiller will easily handle the water chilling need for over 5000 watts of lighting.


How much the chiller can lower the temperature is entirely dependant on the size of the chiller and the wattage of the lights and where the reservoir is located. Obviously when possible depending on the system the reservoir should lawys be in a cool place. That usually means outside the grow area when/where possible. Otherwise the reasrvoir should be insulated if chilled to a tempearture bek low the average air temperature in the grow area. Typically a reservoirs water should be 10 to 20 degrees below the grow room air temperature as most grow rooms have air temps of about 75 to 85 degrees.

Figure heat gain to be removed as such. with a 1000 watt light 85% of the output is in heat producing wave lengths. With water cooled lights 75% of that heat will be extracted by the water flow through the tubes. There are 3.41 btu per watt. (1000 X 0.87 x 0.75 x 3.42) = 2174 btu A tyipical 1 hp airconditioner is rated at 12000 btu. (12000 / 2174) = 5.52 (1000 watt lights)

Without the water cooled light all the heat output of the light will be converted to btu of heat energy. What is not removed through ventilation will be taken up by the reservoir of water and surrounding obvjects or loss through convection etc through the walls, ceiling and floor. essentially the 0.75 will be 1.0 so (1000 x 0.85 x 3.41) = 2898 btu or 1/4 hp per each 1000 watts of light as a 1/4 hpair conditioner chiller has a capacity of 3000 btu.

Actually a chiller is more efficient than an air conditioner as water is a better thermal conductor than air. But no reason to get that specific.

Before you start wasting your time considering using a dormitary refrigerator as a chiller first consider they usually are only about 1/12 hp. That means they have a btu capacity of only 1000 btu. That means it can handle a light heat output in watts, if running constatlty, of only (1000 btu / 3.42 btu/watt) = 293 watts. As a HID's light puts out 85% of its wattage as heat producing wavelengths of light then a dormitory frig can handle the heat output of a (249/0.85) = 293 watt light. So with additional room ventilation and convective heat losses it can probably handle cooling the reservoir in a room lit by a 400 watt lamp.

As for reef tanks. They use more wattage then my small grow rooms. Between pumps and lights they cook without chilling. I make chillers out of room airconditioners with nearly all parst coming from eBay. Even good titanium heat exchangers can be bought there. I use them all year round even winter and it gets very cold where I am (-35 to -50 degrees F). The chillers compressor is outdoors but the heat exchanger is indoors.
 
fatman7574 said:
The laws of physics sya that two objects in contact with each other will reach the same temp. This means if you have a resrvoir in a 80 degree room inveritably the reservoir water temp is going to end up at 80 degrees. There are ways around this. A few have been mentioned but only paratially. The most impoirtant aspect in regard to cooling without a chiller is evaporative cooling. ie a fan drawing air across the waters surface. Drawing not blowing. More efficient says the physicist. Alos mentioned was that at most the temperatut re drop willbe to 5 degreesbelow the roon temp where the reseroir is located. Not entioned is colling the water out side the room where the reservoir is stored. Doing such will allow for colling to at least five degrees below the air temperature where the cooling is taking place. There are several ways to easily accomplish this with the choices being the stealth level needed. Consider if the stealth need is minimal that ypu can have a small reservoir just hust higher than your present reservoir placed out side your grow area. Pump water up and into the second reservoir and place a uniseal in the side with an overflow pie to allow excess water to flow back to the regular reservoir. Place a fan over this second reservoir drawing air across the waters surface This actually works best if it is done with a reservoir with a lid. Cut a slot or a series of holes just above the high water mark set by the drain you placed in the side of the reservoir. This hole fr or the drains should be near the top of the reservoir so that only a few inches of air space is between the surface of the water and the lid. A simple muffin fan or two is adequate for air movement. This will keep your reservoir water tempa t aprroximattely 5 degrees below the out side rooms air temperature. If you need additional stealth then use an aquariy um for the second reservoir woth a fan over the top of it to coll the aquarium water. Then pump water with a small pump in a circulatinig loopetween the aquarium and the reservoir. Instaed of pumping water into the reservoir buy a piece of titanium tubing to be placed in the reservoir. Push the tubing tightly over each end of the tubing so that aquarium water flows through the vinyl tubing then the titanium tubing and back through vinyl tubing to the aquarium. Oh yeah throw a gold fish or something in the aquarium.

If you really serious about growing you can put together a much better large chiller (1 hp) or about a fourth the cost of buying a comparable one or half the cost of a cheap one of that size. And the compressor would be outside instead of inside. A 1 hp chiller will easily handle the water chilling need for over 5000 watts of lighting.


How much the chiller can lower the temperature is entirely dependant on the size of the chiller and the wattage of the lights and where the reservoir is located. Obviously when possible depending on the system the reservoir should lawys be in a cool place. That usually means outside the grow area when/where possible. Otherwise the reasrvoir should be insulated if chilled to a tempearture bek low the average air temperature in the grow area. Typically a reservoirs water should be 10 to 20 degrees below the grow room air temperature as most grow rooms have air temps of about 75 to 85 degrees.

Figure heat gain to be removed as such. with a 1000 watt light 85% of the output is in heat producing wave lengths. With water cooled lights 75% of that heat will be extracted by the water flow through the tubes. There are 3.41 btu per watt. (1000 X 0.87 x 0.75 x 3.42) = 2174 btu A tyipical 1 hp airconditioner is rated at 12000 btu. (12000 / 2174) = 5.52 (1000 watt lights)

Without the water cooled light all the heat output of the light will be converted to btu of heat energy. What is not removed through ventilation will be taken up by the reservoir of water and surrounding obvjects or loss through convection etc through the walls, ceiling and floor. essentially the 0.75 will be 1.0 so (1000 x 0.85 x 3.41) = 2898 btu or 1/4 hp per each 1000 watts of light as a 1/4 hpair conditioner chiller has a capacity of 3000 btu.

Actually a chiller is more efficient than an air conditioner as water is a better thermal conductor than air. But no reason to get that specific.

Before you start wasting your time considering using a dormitary refrigerator as a chiller first consider they usually are only about 1/12 hp. That means they have a btu capacity of only 1000 btu. That means it can handle a light heat output in watts, if running constatlty, of only (1000 btu / 3.42 btu/watt) = 293 watts. As a HID's light puts out 85% of its wattage as heat producing wavelengths of light then a dormitory frig can handle the heat output of a (249/0.85) = 293 watt light. So with additional room ventilation and convective heat losses it can probably handle cooling the reservoir in a room lit by a 400 watt lamp.

As for reef tanks. They use more wattage then my small grow rooms. Between pumps and lights they cook without chilling. I make chillers out of room airconditioners with nearly all parst coming from eBay. Even good titanium heat exchangers can be bought there. I use them all year round even winter and it gets very cold where I am (-35 to -50 degrees F). The chillers compressor is outdoors but the heat exchanger is indoors.
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Thanks for that man alot of good info there. Those bad ass chillers are the shit I wanted to get one made but they wanted so much money.

I always thought about doing it my self but I know nothing of a/c cooling so I would have to buy one.

I was wanting to run water cooled lights and everything but I couldnt ever find a good source of info. You know of any good journals or setups that could help me out of running a water cooled room?
 
snail240 said:
Then a chiller will shine for you even a cheaper one. If you buy a bad ass chiller it will cool your room to might be able to get rid of a/c.

I know about chillers because I use them in my reef tanks and those are the cheaper ones they sell in hydro stores. Even to cool a bad ass huge reef tank with hids you need industrial chillers to cool the tank.

You can learn alot of stuff about water cooling from reef keepers because water temp and parameters have to stay within certain degrees with drops and night.

Keep in mind I run 2x250 watt mh on one reef tank and they sit like 4 inches from the water and I have to cool that water or my reef dies.
Click to expand...


Unless you have some way to pipe the heat out of the room, a badass chiller will not cool down the room...it will heat it up. Its just like running an A/C without an exhaust, or leaving a fridge open to cool down a room...you need some way to get the heat out of the room, or it only adds heat to the air.
 
raptor22 said:
Unless you have some way to pipe the heat out of the room, a badass chiller will not cool down the room...it will heat it up. Its just like running an A/C without an exhaust, or leaving a fridge open to cool down a room...you need some way to get the heat out of the room, or it only adds heat to the air.
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Any chiller should be outside o the grow room anyways because they creat heat. Bigger ones will need to be outside your house. And for people thinking its scetchy to run one of these big coolers out side your house dont worry a buddy has 2 of them just for reef tanks doesnt even grow.

And he burns more watts then most the grows on this site just to run single tanks people concered about wattage usage shouldnt be as long as they dont stink up the neighbor hood and pay the bills you could run a 8000 watt grow room without being even looked at.

Shit I know people breed reptiles that have electric bills that would put any grow op to shame.
 
I just bought a display 1200 btu GE window air conditioner for $93 at Sam’s Club as it is winter here now. No warranty but after I alter one there is no warrant anyway. From the past on eBay I paid $17 with postage for a site glass (as it shows whether air is getting into the system or if there is moisture in the refrigerant system) and a refrigerant dryer/filter. I bought a tubing flaring tool for $12 with postage and a pipe bender for $18 with postage. Bought a Map torch and some silver solder and flux for $43 locally. The expansion valve came from eBay for $40 with shipping. I also got two pressure gauges for $36 with shipping. I also bought a head pressure controller off eBay for $62 with postage as I place the units I build outside and I they are still used in the winter at up to 45 below zero. The head control device controls the fan on the condensor so it doesn’t run at cold temps unless needed. I also have a $12 silicone heating pad under the compressor that is hooked up to a $25 industrial temperature controller from eBay. This keeps the compressor fluids fluid when cold. Compressors do not work well when their oil is thick as molasses. The expensive part is the titanium heat exchanger . It is premade and uses 20 feet of ½” titanium coiled inside 6” pvc pipe. It cost $350 with shipping. I had to buy two copper fittings and some pipe locally and used about $5 worth of pipe and paid $2.25 for the fittings. A local refrigeration guy did the vacuum test and freon installation for a modest 7 grams. Sadly it costs almost as much (just no heat exchanger to buy) to convert a window air conditioner so that just the evaporator and fan is in the grow room and the rest is ouside. It beats always having to build the rooms only where a window is available.

Total cost:(93+17+12+18+43+36+40+62+12+25+350+5+2.25) = $715 That might seem like a lot but consider the unit is oustside except for the heat exchanger a small expansion valve and the two pressure gages. Everything else is outside. It is controlled by a Ranco temperature controller and a relay so that adds another $100. A comparable unit would have to be a commercial unit at over $3000 plus freight. Even a cheapl high end aquarium model would cost at least $1300 plus freight and it would sit inside, It would have no expansion valve (less efficient) no site glass, no filter, no gauges and a heat exchanger that uses much less titanium pipe. Its controls would be less dependable, with less adjustment and it would nor chill to as low of temperatures. My chillers are set up to chill to between 40 and 50 degrees generally, as I chill one large 80 tank and run water through tubes through that to chill my reservoirs and water for lights etc. and reef aquariums. There is not a huge difference in price between a 1/2, 2/3 or 1 hp chiller as the eBay costs would be the same except the heat exchanger and the smaller heat exchangers are only about $50 to $75 cheaper. Of course if yiu alrady have the tools or will build more than one chiller or air conditioner the costs will be cheaper. I have built quite a few ½ and 2/3 hp models as they are available from Sears for about $125 to $200 and the 1 hp for about $300. Eventually I will just break down and buy a tank of freon as I have the refrigeration manifold and a good vacumn pump and also vacumn meter from eBay but the refrigeration guy is a long time friend so???

Sadly it costs almost as much (just no heat exchanger to buy) to convert a window air conditioner so that just the evaporator and fan is in the grow room and the rest is outside. It beats always having to build the rooms only where a window is available and there s no compressor noise only the small air conditioning evaporator fan. Plus they are usable at down to 45 below zero.
 
fatman7574 said:
I just bought a display 1200 btu GE window air conditioner for $93 at Sam’s Club as it is winter here now. No warranty but after I alter one there is no warrant anyway. From the past on eBay I paid $17 with postage for a site glass (as it shows whether air is getting into the system or if there is moisture in the refrigerant system) and a refrigerant dryer/filter. I bought a tubing flaring tool for $12 with postage and a pipe bender for $18 with postage. Bought a Map torch and some silver solder and flux for $43 locally. The expansion valve came from eBay for $40 with shipping. I also got two pressure gauges for $36 with shipping. I also bought a head pressure controller off eBay for $62 with postage as I place the units I build outside and I they are still used in the winter at up to 45 below zero. The head control device controls the fan on the condensor so it doesn’t run at cold temps unless needed. I also have a $12 silicone heating pad under the compressor that is hooked up to a $25 industrial temperature controller from eBay. This keeps the compressor fluids fluid when cold. Compressors do not work well when their oil is thick as molasses. The expensive part is the titanium heat exchanger . It is premade and uses 20 feet of ½” titanium coiled inside 6” pvc pipe. It cost $350 with shipping. I had to buy two copper fittings and some pipe locally and used about $5 worth of pipe and paid $2.25 for the fittings. A local refrigeration guy did the vacuum test and freon installation for a modest 7 grams. Sadly it costs almost as much (just no heat exchanger to buy) to convert a window air conditioner so that just the evaporator and fan is in the grow room and the rest is ouside. It beats always having to build the rooms only where a window is available.

Total cost:(93+17+12+18+43+36+40+62+12+25+350+5+2.25) = $715 That might seem like a lot but consider the unit is oustside except for the heat exchanger a small expansion valve and the two pressure gages. Everything else is outside. It is controlled by a Ranco temperature controller and a relay so that adds another $100. A comparable unit would have to be a commercial unit at over $3000 plus freight. Even a cheapl high end aquarium model would cost at least $1300 plus freight and it would sit inside, It would have no expansion valve (less efficient) no site glass, no filter, no gauges and a heat exchanger that uses much less titanium pipe. Its controls would be less dependable, with less adjustment and it would nor chill to as low of temperatures. My chillers are set up to chill to between 40 and 50 degrees generally, as I chill one large 80 tank and run water through tubes through that to chill my reservoirs and water for lights etc. and reef aquariums. There is not a huge difference in price between a 1/2, 2/3 or 1 hp chiller as the eBay costs would be the same except the heat exchanger and the smaller heat exchangers are only about $50 to $75 cheaper. Of course if yiu alrady have the tools or will build more than one chiller or air conditioner the costs will be cheaper. I have built quite a few ½ and 2/3 hp models as they are available from Sears for about $125 to $200 and the 1 hp for about $300. Eventually I will just break down and buy a tank of freon as I have the refrigeration manifold and a good vacumn pump and also vacumn meter from eBay but the refrigeration guy is a long time friend so???

Sadly it costs almost as much (just no heat exchanger to buy) to convert a window air conditioner so that just the evaporator and fan is in the grow room and the rest is outside. It beats always having to build the rooms only where a window is available and there s no compressor noise only the small air conditioning evaporator fan. Plus they are usable at down to 45 below zero.
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Do you think sombody that knows alot about home a/c could build that system pretty easily?

I paid $900 for my chiller and it sucks this was a few years ago also but I have come to the conclusion reef chillers suck even for reef tanks. I would like to have sombody build them for me so I dont kill my self I might have a few friends that need a couple aswell.

Only found a few companys building those for people and they ask alot. Guy I know local said $1200 but he would also fix it at price if it broke seems like a deal but then agian $1200 chiller shouldnt be breaking so I backed away from it.

winter time is here now so I got a few months to figure it out still sucks when im worried about $20,000+ in reef tanks and plants when I leave my house in the summer. Its like owning children and I cant do anything to much money on the line.
 
snail240 said:
Do you think sombody that knows alot about home a/c could build that system pretty easily?

I paid $900 for my chiller and it sucks this was a few years ago also but I have come to the conclusion reef chillers suck even for reef tanks. I would like to have sombody build them for me so I dont kill my self I might have a few friends that need a couple aswell.

Only found a few companys building those for people and they ask alot. Guy I know local said $1200 but he would also fix it at price if it broke seems like a deal but then agian $1200 chiller shouldnt be breaking so I backed away from it.

winter time is here now so I got a few months to figure it out still sucks when im worried about $20,000+ in reef tanks and plants when I leave my house in the summer. Its like owning children and I cant do anything to much money on the line.
Click to expand...

Yes, a person who can charge the freon load into a refrigeration or airconditioning unit very likely has the other few bits of knowledge and skills need to make a good chiller from a window airconditioner. The difficulty in making the units are mainly a matter of obtaining the parts at a reasonable price. ie eBay. It requires specific parts based upon the size of the air conditioner you will be using. Plus it depends also on what method of cooling you will be using.

There are expansion valves used for chilling down to 5 about 50% (airconditioning), down to 28 degrees, (refrigeration), and down to -40 degrees, (freezers). I use the mid levels expansion valve controls as I cool a large tank of water and cooling individual reef tanks etc with that water. The chiller keeo ps that tanks water cooled to the 30's.

The highest cost is in obtaining a heat exchanger. Even if you find a metal supplier who will sell 20 foot lengths of titanium tubing so you can make a DIY heat exchanger you still have to safely haul that 20 foot long piece of tubing home to bend it. The metal will easily bend without heating the tubing into a coil about 5 inches in outside diameter with a bender made to bend 180 degree bends. The benders are available on eBay.

The premade heat exchangers are about $300 and up. 1/2" titanium tubing generally retails in short cut off lengths at $10 per foot. Figure about $125 for a 20 foot length. Then you would need a piece of 6 inch PVC pipe, two end caps and two cord grips to seal around the tubing entrances through the PVC caps. Also some brass compression to flare fittings to attach the heat exchanger to the refrigerant lines.

As 6" PVC pipe in 10 foot lengths is far from cheap you liekey would not save money building just one heat exchanger once also buying a used heavily made tubing bender at say $40. You want a bender made for bending EMT tubing or rigid steel pipe, not a small bender made for copper pipe. Look at ones with 2 foot long handles or longer.
 
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