Too much trouble to diagnose. Please help

sacro · Mar 3, 2014

Okay so these are three clones from Nirvana white widow. They are 4 days into flowering and they are now showing multiple symptoms which means I am lost on what to do. They are planted in 50/50 high quality tomato soil (nothing special really, just "high quality" organic soil from the local botanist) and leca/clay balls.

I have been following the feedingtables provided by BioBizz. This includes rootjuice, biogrow, bio flower and BioHeaven. Obviously I'm done feeding rootjuice. Last watering (thursday) the tips were bend down so I added a little bloodmeal to them all. Now leaves are hanging, some are just pale with dark spots, others look normal but with some symptoms showing overfeeding and even some I am unable to ID. Take a look at the pictures below and throw out your suggestions please. I really need to save these ladies

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Also, if you need pics of something specific, do let me know and I'll get to it asap!

hermex · Mar 3, 2014

How much light are you using, they look a little starved for light. First thing I'd do is trim off 90% of those leaves and branches. Using a more breathable pot like a smart pot greatly improves the overall health of your ladies...

cc2012 · Mar 3, 2014

lay of the watering and Nutes (I think is common to over water/feed when things start going wrong...rather than step back)

what size pots are the ladies in?? if they too small then this could be causing you to water more...I had some WW that showed these signs just before I started to flower em, and after checking some threads...potted em into bigger pots...with fresh soil/compost/perlite mix and didn't water for a week after I had watered in straight after transplant...they turned out fine and the Biggest Yielders.

Peace

EDIT: Hope you sort

sacro · Mar 3, 2014

@hermex
4 plants(actually just three in this closet)250W SON-T PLUSSadly I am unable to pot into anything else/bigger. But I guess i should trim off some then.

@cc2012
I will let the dirt dry properly also deeper before next watering, then flush properly and let that dry as well before I continue with nutes. At least that's my plan for now.
I also put them into 18 Litre pots 3 days before I switched to 12/12 and SON-T light (vegged under HQI). I really hope its not the potsize, cause I don't have room for larger pots

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Anyone know if leca clayballs is even viable? It's my 2nd real grow, my 3rd overall grow and before I just used plain soil. Got me 160 grams of dried nomnoms

PS. Next grow is already in place, 30% perlite, 30% coco, 40% soil. SHOULD be good?

Dr.J20 · Mar 3, 2014

from the pics she looks overwatered (drooping) and like you've got some micro and macro nute lockouts/deficiencies. What's the pH of your runoff? what's the pH of your water before bottled nutes? with the nutes? I'd guess lockout since you have multiple different symptoms showing which means a flush will be in order. adjust your pH before you flush. flush 3x the volume of the pot, watering in stages. she'll droop again after the flush some. How well draining is your current mix?

cc2012 · Mar 3, 2014

sacro said:
I also put them into 18 Litre pots 3 days before I switched to 12/12

Hiya, only asked about Pot Size because I always find hard to judge from Pics..So anyway Its NOT the Pot Size...so I would go with Dr.J20 on this...

Peace

:weed:

sacro · Mar 3, 2014

Dr.J20 said:
from the pics she looks overwatered (drooping) and like you've got some micro and macro nute lockouts/deficiencies. What's the pH of your runoff? what's the pH of your water before bottled nutes? with the nutes? I'd guess lockout since you have multiple different symptoms showing which means a flush will be in order. adjust your pH before you flush. flush 3x the volume of the pot, watering in stages. she'll droop again after the flush some. How well draining is your current mix?

Thank you for your reply.

I agree with the overwatering look, yet I've only watered when the soil is REALLY dry 1-2 inches down (check with finger in random spots). I put water in at about PH 6 with nutes. Haven't tested my runoff but I suspect it's a little high. Gonna check it when I flush.
My mix is draining a little too well I suspect, but it seems the clayballs can hold a lot of moist cause the pots are "wet" a lot longer than my last grow with Soil alone.

I'll update with my runoff PH as soon as I water them again.

cc2012 · Mar 3, 2014

Yeah Clay Pebbles can be Great or a Pain...I use em...some of my ladies only need watering once a week, but that's the little ones ~ well 3 Litre ones...vegging these a little longer and potting-on at a later date...at the moment, the bigger ones are about ready to be flipped 12/12 once I have taken cuttings..

Again hope you managed to sort mate..

Peace

:weed:

zander19 · Mar 3, 2014

We had the some issue. it was due to under watering them give them a good wee drink an puff good as new

Dr.J20 · Mar 3, 2014

sacro said:
Thank you for your reply.

I agree with the overwatering look, yet I've only watered when the soil is REALLY dry 1-2 inches down (check with finger in random spots). I put water in at about PH 6 with nutes. Haven't tested my runoff but I suspect it's a little high. Gonna check it when I flush.
My mix is draining a little too well I suspect, but it seems the clayballs can hold a lot of moist cause the pots are "wet" a lot longer than my last grow with Soil alone.

I'll update with my runoff PH as soon as I water them again.

I doubt your medium is too dry/draining too well/overaerated. you would end up air pruning your roots in odd patterns within the buckets, but i'd imagine they'd survive fine. the problem is most likely related to nutrients+pH issues that have progressed to full swing deficiencies. You can get a soil "rap-i-test" kit from a local nursery if you don't want to wait until you start flushing to check your soil pH.

Side-tip: pick up your pots after your done watering and get a feel for the weight. Allow them to go a day or two longer than you usually would to water (wait until you see the first signs of drooping leaves). Before you water, pick up the pots again and feel how they feel when totally dry. after doing this you'll have a good gauge to know how quickly your girls are drinking by just picking up the pot. then you can dispense with the often misleading "top 2" dry" watering bullshit. <it's not really bullshit, i'm just cranky>

Now, topdressing with bloodmeal is interesting, and i'd like to hear how much you put down as well, because if you flush after having done this, you are going to wash a little away--no biggie, you probably don't need a nitrogen boost given the bottled nutrients you're using. That being said, I know virtually nothing about biobizz; seems snake-oilish, but i'm not here to argue about that shit or come off like some kind of nazi purist; you're using it, i don't know dick about it, so all of this advice about nutrients is pure speculation on my part. take it with many large grains of salt.

So, to continue, I would advise a kelp tea and an aact made with good quality ewc and blackstrap molasses. microbeorganics.com has a good recipe if you're willing. I would also recommend you check out the sections on enzyme teas and aloe, those may be helpful strategies for correcting these issues, particularly the aloe. ingredientstodiefor is one place people go for 200x powdered organic aloe, but others swear by fresh filets. regardless, many people are swearing by it as an all around good adjunct to a rehabilitating regimen.
So prognosis for me would look something like this : flush, next watering use kelp tea mixed with enzyme tea and aloe foliar, aloe foliar and regular watering. after that you'd resume your schedule of biobizz if things were back on track. sheer speculation on my part, though. And the preceeding looks like a 15-21 day run, depending on how much your girls drink etc.

Also, in my understanding, there is a debate/discussion about whether cannabis plants like to go through dry cycles. My instinct on this is a consistently ideal availability of H2O is preferable for plant health, success, and productivity; however, it is common to concentrate essential oils in many herbaceous plants, and, of particular interest to myself, capsaicin in hot peppers, by engaging in brief periods of underwatering stress. I do not do this, personally, but have been interested in looking into it.

enough from me,
let me know if that helps,
be easy,
:peace:

sacro · Mar 3, 2014

Well that's quite a read for the educated. I have to admit I don't get half of those names and terms

Nonetheless, helpful, so thank you. Ill lookup some stuff and re-read

I live in a country where buying too much like that will cause questions. And most of those organics aren't available, or have names that would make no sense to you. Do you have any accurate names for what I should use?

Also, BioBizz is suppose to be 100% organic according to the "user manual" in my starters kit. I bought it cause it's easily obtainable here along with quite a bit of people telling me its good here locally.

Now, about the "weight of the pots", I actually do this to a certain level. I just didn't put them on a weight yet

The blood meal, I simply sprinkle two pinches on top of the soil before I water. Friend of mine who grows tomatoes and such told me it's great cause apparently you CAN'T overdose on N with blood meal (no idea if that's correct)?!

sacro · Mar 3, 2014

Dr.J20 said:
I doubt your medium is too dry/draining too well/overaerated. you would end up air pruning your roots in odd patterns within the buckets, but i'd imagine they'd survive fine. the problem is most likely related to nutrients+pH issues that have progressed to full swing deficiencies. You can get a soil "rap-i-test" kit from a local nursery if you don't want to wait until you start flushing to check your soil pH.

Side-tip: pick up your pots after your done watering and get a feel for the weight. Allow them to go a day or two longer than you usually would to water (wait until you see the first signs of drooping leaves). Before you water, pick up the pots again and feel how they feel when totally dry. after doing this you'll have a good gauge to know how quickly your girls are drinking by just picking up the pot. then you can dispense with the often misleading "top 2" dry" watering bullshit. <it's not really bullshit, i'm just cranky>

Now, topdressing with bloodmeal is interesting, and i'd like to hear how much you put down as well, because if you flush after having done this, you are going to wash a little away--no biggie, you probably don't need a nitrogen boost given the bottled nutrients you're using. That being said, I know virtually nothing about biobizz; seems snake-oilish, but i'm not here to argue about that shit or come off like some kind of nazi purist; you're using it, i don't know dick about it, so all of this advice about nutrients is pure speculation on my part. take it with many large grains of salt.

So, to continue, I would advise a kelp tea and an aact made with good quality ewc and blackstrap molasses. microbeorganics.com has a good recipe if you're willing. I would also recommend you check out the sections on enzyme teas and aloe, those may be helpful strategies for correcting these issues, particularly the aloe. ingredientstodiefor is one place people go for 200x powdered organic aloe, but others swear by fresh filets. regardless, many people are swearing by it as an all around good adjunct to a rehabilitating regimen.
So prognosis for me would look something like this : flush, next watering use kelp tea mixed with enzyme tea and aloe foliar, aloe foliar and regular watering. after that you'd resume your schedule of biobizz if things were back on track. sheer speculation on my part, though. And the preceeding looks like a 15-21 day run, depending on how much your girls drink etc.

Also, in my understanding, there is a debate/discussion about whether cannabis plants like to go through dry cycles. My instinct on this is a consistently ideal availability of H2O is preferable for plant health, success, and productivity; however, it is common to concentrate essential oils in many herbaceous plants, and, of particular interest to myself, capsaicin in hot peppers, by engaging in brief periods of underwatering stress. I do not do this, personally, but have been interested in looking into it.

enough from me,
let me know if that helps,
be easy,

Alright so I did some reading up on stuffs. Where can I find correct info on enzyme tea and how to make it? Also I'm thinking maybe I'll use that 200x aloe. Fresh juice is just too expensive here and will cost me a fortune sadly ^^

Dr.J20 · Mar 4, 2014

sacro said:
Alright so I did some reading up on stuffs. Where can I find correct info on enzyme tea and how to make it? Also I'm thinking maybe I'll use that 200x aloe. Fresh juice is just too expensive here and will cost me a fortune sadly ^^

type this in on google: "site:rollitup.org sst" and hit search. you should find the relevant threads here. SST in a google search will also get you the recipes/methods being used. you can also check out youtube: search "hyroot sst" on youtube and you'll get hyroot's video tutorial on the process--he uses mung beans.

I got my aloe from buildasoil.com but most people recommend ingredientstodiefor. they sell 4 oz of the 200x powder for 35 bones but the shipping and delay (they're having administrative issues right now) would have made it too much trouble for me, and i needed the aloe before they could get it to me. I got 2oz for 40 bones from BAS and they ship everything 2nd day usps for free. your call there.
best of luck to you, and let us know how things go!
:weed:

sacro · Mar 4, 2014

Sigh, its just looking worse today. Flushing NOW. Looks like overwatering, but the soil is DRY! Could it be a heat issue? Last weeks have been warmer than usual and temps have reached 32C a few times in the growcabs.

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cc2012 · Mar 4, 2014

Aye up m8, try and sort that "temps have reached 32C°" could be compounding things 4 you. I think once you go above 29/30° It is causing damage to the plant...and its ability to breathe as such...

Peace

Hope you manage to sort m8

Dr.J20 · Mar 4, 2014

What kind of ventilation do you have running? and airflow? 32 is on the highest end, but she should be able to handle that heat. A degree more and things do start getting dicey though. They still look rather overwatered, but if you just did the flush that would be expected. you do need to let the medium go a day or two longer than you normally would before doing any more watering. beyond that, i'd start asking biobizz folks to help out because there may be something they could fill you in on. Indeed, flushing is pure witchery for organics so if this Biobizz stuff really is organic, the flush didn't do anything but persist in keeping your medium too wet (hence the worsening). I suppose patience is going to be your best bet for right now, unless you hear something from biobizz folk.
be easy,
:peace:

sacro · Mar 4, 2014

Actually I flushed properly 4 hours ago, NOW they look amazing already. So not overwatered, just overnuted/salted and too DRY it seems. Adding some tea if i can get some, then flushing again next dry cycle and then in a week or so ill nute at 1/4th strenght

Dr.J20 · Mar 4, 2014

sacro said:
Actually I flushed properly 4 hours ago, NOW they look amazing already. So not overwatered, just overnuted/salted and too DRY it seems. Adding some tea if i can get some, then flushing again next dry cycle and then in a week or so ill nute at 1/4th strenght

Ok good, i kinda panicked for a second there. sounds like things are heading in the right direction! best of luck to you and keep us posted on progress,
be easy,
:leaf:

sacro · Mar 5, 2014

Dr.J20 said:
Ok good, i kinda panicked for a second there. sounds like things are heading in the right direction! best of luck to you and keep us posted on progress,
be easy,

Thank you. Ill trim them later today and put up some pics of the recovering patients

Looking better and better and new growth now looks as it should

PHEW!

AAAAND to answer your question, I have a 80x80 PC fan for air in, an 80x80 PC fan for air out through a carbon filter (works well actually) and i have a low rpm USB tablefan inside the cab for the circulation inside. Plants move around a little on all parts even though its a little tight when it comes to space, but seemed fine last grow so I'm keeping this for now

cc2012 · Mar 5, 2014

Glad they picked up for ya sacro

:weed:

Too much trouble to diagnose. Please help

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