What is the (main) problem?

Hi guys, a total newbie trying to get some help : )

I took my friend's neglected plants under my new LED, since the weather seemed no longer warm enough. Thought it would be a nice quick trial batch to learn something. Looks like I got a tougher lesson than I hoped for : )

Given the history, Im missing some important info, unfortunately.
Its autoflowers (dont know exact strain) that were growing outdoors in pots.
From what I saw, they were often overwatered and overfertilized.
Stunted and not looking well.
I took them under my new LED about three weeks ago, when they were just starting to flower.
I flushed them, trying to lower ph to about 6.5 while doing so. I tied them around a bit, attempting LST for a flat, even canopy.
No nutrients for a few feedings, then 1/2 dose of bloom pk13-14
Overall they seemed to be getting better, but I noticed what I thought to be beginning calcium deficiency - see the spotted leaf on one of the pictures
I added a bit of calcium (1/2 recommended dose) and then again after cca5 days when it was still getting worse. Also applied it as foliar spray with thefeedings.
It seemed better after that, but after cca 10 days it returned with a vengeance, along with other symptoms.
Except the calcium, I only gave one 1/2 bloom feeding during those two weeks. Each time there were several days of downtime between giving any nutes (At leat one clean watering)
So I hope I was on the low (safe) side with nutes, or not? Still .. from what Im finding on the web, it looks mostly like nute burn, doesnt it? ...while Im still seem to be seeing new signs of cal def
I dont know... this is too much for my first trials (looking forward to my first clean grow after this mess : )
The symptoms are all over the place, judging by my very limited knowkedge : /
Now I have no idea if I shall add more cal/mag, or flush again ... or something else completely...?

Please, if you could have a look at the pictures and tell me what you suspect the most.

Your input would be much appreciated.
Symptoms of various problems can be overlapping, and I may have made the wrong call while following advice found online (on renowed sites)
Dont want to repeat the mistake, thanks a lot for any advice! : )

(Latest symptom, maybe not clearly visible on the pictures: leaf edges getting "dead brown" and hanging down...but not really burnt looking...almost as if overwatered ... BTW I try to give about 10-20hrs of drought between waterings)
(I looked at the rusty spots under a microscope and it doesnt look like fungus)
(Conditions in my tent are very good, I dare say ... RH around 40%, temps around 25C daytime/20C night, light just an inch or two lower than manual says ... 22-23 inches above the canopy - viparspectra v900, 18hours per day)
(I only gave calcium, not magnesium, since my local shop didnt have calmag and I wanted to act immedietaly ... could that be the problem? ...just bought epsom salt : )

For context,

What grow medium are you using? (extremely important to say)
What fert are you using? How much and how often?
What was the calcium source you decided on?

Unless it's coco or hydro, watering every 10 - 20hrs is WAY too often.
Easy to say but, stop loving them to death. It sounds like that's what you're doing.

If it's soil, give the plants more of a breather between waterings and dry the soil out some. They will recover.
There are obvious limitations. But don't underestimate just how dry a soil can get, before it (the plant) "needs" water. Find what it likes.

You've more than likely been correct all along. Overwatered and overfert'd. Trust your green thumb!

Hi, thanks for a quick reply.

Its in soil ... Im guessing some regular cheap bags (I got them in the pots without learning any details : /)

Fert Atami PK 13-14
Just once in after the two calcium feedings, 1/2 of recommended dose

The calcium... Ill need to check when Im home...
Its some liquid calcium additive ... some basic product for all plants and even apple trees - couldnt get anything else right then : (
1/2 recommended dose, two times, five days apart

Im watering each 2-3 days
Trying to usually have cca 10-20hours dry period, as in dry medium : )

Yea.. I probably overdid something ... or I dont know...

The leaves would point to... burn? Or what?
I just had a look and its even worse.
The "burnt" spots moving everywhere ... sugar leaves, etc
Even yellowish-whitish...

So... shall I add PK and/or cal-mag?
Or rather just plain water?
Any other advice?

I was thinking about more drastic measures like looking at the roots if it gets even worse.
Would that be a good direction? Im afraid it will be the last nail in their coffin...

I failed to mention something possibly quite important:
Only 3 out of six plants are suffering this seriously.
The other three are almost clean (just some minor tip burns and not much small rusty/brown spots)
No differences in feeding, or anything that I know of..

And if it isn't coco or soiless, the soil looks rather brown and lacking organic matter.

If soil is the case and soil is all it is, consider some organic matter. It's too late really to add any whole material.
Instead of straight hydro fert, try something organic based. Even a fish emulsion. I think your is lacking general fertility. (not nutrient)

JayBudd said:

Hi, thanks for a quick reply.

Its in soil ... Im guessing some regular cheap bags (I got them in the pots without learning any details : /)

Fert Atami PK 13-14
Just once in after the two calcium feedings, 1/2 of recommended dose

The calcium... Ill need to check when Im home...
Its some liquid calcium additive ... some basic product for all plants and even apple trees - couldnt get anything else right then : (
1/2 recommended dose, two times, five days apart

Im watering each 2-3 days
Trying to usually have cca 10-20hours dry period, as in dry medium : )

Yea.. I probably overdid something ... or I dont know...

The leaves would point to... burn? Or what?
I just had a look and its even worse.
The "burnt" spots moving everywhere ... sugar leaves, etc
Even yellowish-whitish...

So... shall I add PK and/or cal-mag?
Or rather just plain water?
Any other advice?

I was thinking about more drastic measures like looking at the roots if it gets even worse.
Would that be a good direction? Im afraid it will be the last nail in their coffin...

I failed to mention something possibly quite important:
Only 3 out of six plants are suffering this seriously.
The other three are almost clean (just some minor tip burns and not much small rusty/brown spots)
No differences in feeding, or anything that I know of..

Click to expand...

PK 13/14 would be cause for lockout if you weren't careful. That i can almost guarantee.
Potassium has a nasty habbit of calmag lockout in excess. Phosphates can have a nasty habbit of dropping soil ph if it's wet all the time.

It looks looks dry on top, but how much water is it holding? Is it heavy and does it drain well?
What did you use for aeration?

Stop using the liquid calcium.

Not a problem at all, happy to help!
You might be interested in a thread i created yesterday, to help other newbies. You might find some of the information really valuable. I think much of it can relate to what you're experiencing at the moment. I'll link it in.

Cheers and have a good 1!

Mmmm...
I guess I'll try abandoning all the bottles and get something organic as you recommend.
Any recipe for a quick homemade solution?
I might even try it later tonight : D
Would aloe vera help, for example? Wanted to try it out sometime...

Ill also try how heavy the pots feel.
I dont think anything has been done in terms of aeration. Just pure soil in basic pots. Not draining too well, Im afraid.
Youre right that I judge that its dry just by feeling the surface. Mmmm... lesson learned : )

Besides switching to the organic solution, would epsom salt foliar spray hurt anything?
I wanted to try it because of the prevailing cal def symptoms (read that magnesium can be the cause)
...or even slight epsom salt watering? : )

Thanks for your insight.
Ill also check the other thread.
Cheers!

I'd personally try and dry the soil right out a bit, first thing.

I'm not sure dolomite lime / lime in general is a good idea in your own case. You've already supplemented liquid lime.
There's some good organic fish emulsion products you can get from your local hardware. They are already watered down for the consumer and re a really helpful fertility tonic in a pinch. NPK is nothing in them either, like 2 - 0.5 - 0.5. But they are loaded with minerals and microbes. (Should be nice and smelly). Start at half the recommended next watering.

Trouble is your aeration, it's going to be really fine dice between watered way too early and too late. Be really on it. If you can, raise the pots above the ground. That should help some.

No worries at all, happy to divulge.
Do check it out. I think you'll find it really useful. The heading's a little misleading.
Not a problem at all. All the best figuring out what's wrong.
Cheers!

Also next time you water, make sure the soil is saturated. And get some good waste leaching from the pot. Rinse it out a bit.
Then follow up with the fish emulsion 15 minutes or so after.
Dry it right out again. Then play it by ear from there.

Good luck.

Alright, will try today if I manage zo get home soon enough : )

Id just like to make sure I understand correcty:
Are you saying my soil lacks enzymes/microbes that help the plant absorb nutrients?
That thats what I need to provide through the organic solution?
I thought they are not really important when using bottled nutrients... mistake?

...or have I misunderstood completely? : )

JayBudd said:

Alright, will try today if I manage zo get home soon enough : )

Id just like to make sure I understand correcty:
Are you saying my soil lacks enzymes/microbes that help the plant absorb nutrients?
That thats what I need to provide through the organic solution?
I thought they are not really important when using bottled nutrients... mistake?

...or have I misunderstood completely? : )

Click to expand...

Yeah. I don't think it would hurt it. I'm of the opinion it'll be better than plain water. But a lot better than putting more strong nutrient in the soil, when you're already loaded with pk 13/14 and calcium. It should help a bit. It's really up to you though.

Looks pretty brown, like they've just mixed a peat / coco base with slow release. (like a nursery mix)
But once that stuff runs out of fertilizer, it needs added nutrient, or organic matter. I think fish emulsion will be good for both.

Ideally your soil shouldn't be light brown and going dry really fast on top. That's usually a sign the soil needs organic matter.
Rich compost, even composted manure if you have heaps of aeration. That kind of organic matter holds water very well too. Also provides great structure and added carbon. (Think of this for next time)

Don't pass up the opportunity to mulch the top either. Mulch keeps the surface soil moist and microbes absolutely love it!
That's where i'd be headed. Mulch, drying it right out. Then big drink of water with waste runoff after several days.
Then following up on the fish emulsion. Either straight afterward, or the very next watering.

Your biggest battle ahead is the soils aeration and drainage, if the soil's as heavy as you suggest. That's going to be the most difficult to judge.
Watch that it isn't pk 13/14 and the liquid calcium causing the lockout. Not just poor aeration.
You can probably assume it is, if it starts to get worse as the soil dries. If that's the case, give it that drink and rinse a little early.
Then make sure you dry it right out.

I'm not saying don't use a fertilizer salt / nutrient solution. Just suggesting you don't supplement any more until you're confident it will be fine.

Some more pictures from today.
One of them looks burnt to crisp ... or whats that?
Other one more and more brown.
Others quite good.

Ill proceed as recommended.
Still, comments to the pictures would be welcome to help me pinpoint the symptoms..

(The white dust on soil ... I thought thats probably from the calcium? Had a light mildew problem after the switch to indoor ... but all sorted out quickly - no signs on the plants for weeks now)

Thanks guys, nice day all

Yeah. Just a bit of fish emulsion imho. I'm all in on that one! All day!

Make sure the soil's dry first and you then give it a good rinse.

Then follow up with the fish emulsion. Just play it by ear when. (i'd be tempted to the same day)
Half the recommended, once, with ample waste. Make sure you soak it.
Then maybe again a week or two later, if it likes it.

Nitrogen deficiency is the first to watch out for. That's general loss of green, all over. And usually a good sign to fertilize. (An extreme example is what's used online, with yellow lower fan leaves)
Calcium, magnesium and potassium deficiency are usually the next to follow.
Calcium, magnesium, potassium and phosphorus deficiency (sulphur too), can be difficult to diagnose. Because they are all dependent on each other. Also they appear deficient when locked out. Or being antagonized by another. The most important thing to remember is balance.

To me those plants look underfed.
BUT you've been watering too often. And have supplemented calcium and PK.
Those are the reasons i'm suggesting what i have.

Hope it steers you in the right direction.
Good luck!

Thanks again

One more thing... get this..?

The soil was really nicely dry all over, so I took em out for a proper flush.
And...
The dying plants have runoff pH around 6.5
The healthy ones? Closer to 4. Four!
Im not sure if the soil is different .. but dont think so.
Maybe the healthy ones just got a bit less nutes.
But my tap water is ph7
Makes sense?

JayBudd said:

Thanks again

One more thing... get this..?

The soil was really nicely dry all over, so I took em out for a proper flush.
And...
The dying plants have runoff pH around 6.5
The healthy ones? Closer to 4. Four!
Im not sure if the soil is different .. but dont think so.
Maybe the healthy ones just got a bit less nutes.
But my tap water is ph7
Makes sense?

Click to expand...

The healthy ones...Did they get PK 13/14 + Liquid lime too? Or no?

Besides that. I really wouldn't pay attention to it. Dry the soil out and stop overwatering. (first thing's first)

If you want to know soil ph, never go by your waste! Use a probe, or slurry and powder. I prefer slurry and powder.

All of them got pk.
Its possible that the healthy ones got a bit less ... and no calcium ... while I was trying to solve whhat I thought were deficiencies.
Honestly Im not really sure about each particular plant's diet : (
Will keep proper records the next time.
I dont think the pk dose was much different, but calcium ... could be the good ones got much less than bad ones

JayBudd said:

All of them got pk.
Its possible that the healthy ones got a bit less ... and no calcium ... while I was trying to solve whhat I thought were deficiencies.
Honestly Im not really sure about each particular plant's diet : (
Will keep proper records the next time.
I dont think the pk dose was much different, but calcium ... could be the good ones got much less than bad ones

Click to expand...

Reasonable guess there i think. That's what it sounds like.

Dry it right out. Big drink of water. Rinse. Add organic matter.

Edit: @JayBudd also, hey!
I need to apologize, i didn't realize it was a 10 - 20hr dry, with 3 days between. (my bad)
The same advice still stands, for the pots given extra calcium.
The ones you say are more healthy, but low ph in the waste. Don't give them organic matter just for now! Make sure you dry them first.
BUT, I think you should properly test the ph in those pots first. (not the waste runoff). Before fert'ing or adding a lime.
Find out if that low ph, is just the waste reading low. Or the soil too. You never know, dolomite lime might be good after all.
When you go to the hardware for fish emulsion, get a soil ph kit as well. The ones where you make a paste with the solution. Then add the
Indicator powder and match the sample to the supplied colour chart. (they're very cheap and reliable)

Thanks, Aussie

I didnt find a good place where I could get the stuff on a weekend nearby, so I ordered it online. It could be here in two days I hope ... or Ill buy it here by then.
Will also check out the soil kit
(Im afraid those two poor ladies are dead ... even smell weirdly dry)

Hydro..
My first attempts to diagnose were using articles like this one.
Unfortunately, I cant pinpoint the root cause - the evidence seems conflicting or overlapping to me.. : /
If you see a clear suspect, your input would be much welcome ; )

looks mostly like calcium and potassium deficiencies. I would check the PH of the soil to make sure you aren't locking them out before adding anything else tho.

Alright, thanks guys
I hope to get this done by monday
Will report right here ; )