Build Log; Vero 10 LED build Analysis and Proposal (200W - 400W)

[overthinkingismything]

Hi all,

Just a quick first post to;

1) Pass on my knowledge to anyone who would like an opinion on the Bridgelux Veros that I have gained while I have been doing research into theses emitters.

2) Ask some specific questions about the Spectrum I have chosen for my arrays.

I invite you to read on!

First, I’d like to thank Flux, Supra, Pico, Abiqua, Spheda, Guod, Stardust, Positivity, Flora, and any others that slip my mind at the moment, for the great contributions you have made to these and other boards.

While I am not planning to grow cannabis - but rather my greedy tropical flowers and plants for the garden - it is really on this and other marijuana related boards that the best minds at the forefront of using these lights as a DIY for indoor growing have gathered, IMHO. I just wish I had found this place sooner, as a lot of the research I have done has been mentioned here in some way.

OK, so for 1)

There are likely many people like me with as many questions as I had about just what is the best setup. Hopefully this helps you make your deployment decision.

My design criteria was to balance as many of the following;
1) DIY!
2) For veg AND flower (although I do have 6500K tubes I can supplement with, but I’d rather avoid that)
3) Mid sized. ~ 200 - 400 W at the plug and dimmable. If I need more power, I can build more arrays.
4) Efficiency is key. Hydro rates will only go up.
5) Cost. Emitters will only improve in the future. PSU, emitter, and heatsink costs will be balanced, with mind to what can be reused in the future when upgrades inevitably happen.
6) Simplicity. Hence the COBs in full spectrum whites.
7) Reliability. I will only use top shelf parts for the warranty and piece of mind they offer (genuine Meanwell, Bridgelux, ect. - no Chinese knockoffs)
8 ) Cool operation. Efficient heatsinking will require active cooling.
9) Ability to source parts internationally. I do not reside in the US.

With these goals in mind (and after a thorough full-page Excel analysis of the entire Vero line-up at all input amperages across all the different Meanwell drivers that fit the bill) I have come to the conclusion that the Vero 10 is the best way to go, given my design criteria.

To come to this conclusion I created formulas which took into account; PSU cost per W, efficiency, % of utilization in string design * LED cost, efficiency per W at drive currents, total system lumens / absolute efficiency. I also considered junction temps and lifespan, spectral blending and LED spacing, ease of final product realization and secure and reliable sourcing.

Given the above, I concluded in favour of the Vero 10, running at .500 A, in a string of 13, on a meanwell HLG-185C-500B (Dimming option). Heatsink I am still sourcing; perhaps something overkill from surplus, or perhaps the T-slotted 20mm LED star heatsink from HeatsinkUSA so I don’t have to drill and tap holes (The makers LED one just doesn’t have enough mass for me, although it is the much better finished product).

Price in my market is under 200$ for LEDs and PSU. Add 50$ for heatsink and fan(s). I’m thinking 2 x 120x38mm (better static pressure) undervolted (quiter, while still maintaining 40+ CFM each). Fans will drop heatsink C/W by a factor of 2 – 3 times at these speeds.

Add 50$ for solderless connectors, misc wires, shrink, cabling, ect. Total cost 300$ for 195.452W at the outlet (92% efficency due to APFC) of 108.083 lumens/W full spectrum light (21125 lm assumed @ 4000k tj 25c).

Subsequent light doubling can be added to this systems heatsink (I plan to go at least 8 x 12 x 1.5), reducing cost per W of final system.

So now that that is out of the way, it leads us to where I need help moving forward from you guys.

2) Spectrum Selection

I have seen numerous recommendations all over the web. I have looked at manufacturers’ arrays, DIY projects, white papers, considered anecdotal evidence, and looked at comparison grows ect. I have seen the WW:NW ratios proposed, the supplemental red, the far red, the uv, ect. and I feel like I am no further ahead in deciding, so this is where I’d like some input.

One thing I haven’t gotten around to, admittedly, is looking at Flux’s PAR estimations. That is next on my list.

With all that being said, here is the Vero spectrum I have chosen as an all around multipurpose veg and grow light.

3 * 2700K 90 CRI
2 * 2700K 80 CRI
2 * 3000K 80 CRI
1 * 3500K 80 CRI
4 * 4000K 80 CRI
1 * 5000K 70 CRI

I am still unsure about using the high CRI 2700k (I was hoping for more of a peak in the higher reds out of them?). This mix should create a ~ 2.5:1 WW:CW ratio with around 9.23% blue.

I would appreciate those who are more knowledgeable to critique my proposal, as I’d like to place a parts order in the next week

This thread will also serve as my build log, once the final design is finalized. I look forward to dialoging with you all.


Cheers!

 

[caretak3r]

I know MrFlux has been vocal in past threads about being cautious of the high-voltage driver. I'm no electrician so I don't know what all needs to be considered in that regard. That said, you may want to entertain a 48V DC power supply and meanwell ldd bucks as an alternative as 0xc0ffee is doing here

 

[Chronikool]

Maybe a tad more blue....6000-6500k instead of the 5000k....? Other then that...should see some growth...

 

[overthinkingismything]

I know MrFlux has been vocal in past threads about being cautious of the high-voltage driver. I'm no electrician so I don't know what all needs to be considered in that regard. That said, you may want to entertain a 48V DC power supply and meanwell ldd bucks as an alternative as 0xc0ffee is doing here

This is a very valid point. I did a search and did find him mentioning that here and here. Anything above 200V, and especially 400V at .5A that I would be running can easily cause fibrillation. I was planning on running the solderless connectors and painting a non conductive rubber/plastic over the solder pads, and was thinking about the idea of adding a plexi shield, along with proper handling of course, to minimize these risks. You have me thinking again that it may not be worth it.

I will search again for meanwell PSUs and factor those LDDH drivers into some designs to compare cost and efficiency, although I can tell right now that I will likely have to move to the Vero 18s to make it the most cost effective l/w/$, which will complicate mounting and final assembly, as well as raise costs slightly and reduce efficiency somewhat. But perhaps the added safety is worth all that.

Maybe a tad more blue....6000-6500k instead of the 5000k....? Other then that...should see some growth...

I think you may be right with your thoughts on shifting the spectrum more towards the blue. I did find this post containing the Cree 3700K as used in the new Area 51 190s which seem to be doing very well for people overlaid with the Vero 4000k curve. It would seem to suggest that using the 4K exclusively would yield great results.

I will patiently await for Mr Flux or Supra to chime in if either of them have a moment on this matter, as they both seem to be well informed on the subject. Who knows, perhaps if I get extremely lucky I can even get a spectral distribution plotted of my earlier custom emitter ratio against an array of just 4000k

 

[PetFlora]

Pretty good blend

I am using 2 @ 90w ufos using Helios LEDs (3500 + 5000)= ~4700K throughout veg. As buds developed I added 3 @ ~ 16w 4ft led tubes (3000K)= ~ 220w

Top buds are actually bigger than top buds under my 432w HOT5 panel using exotic 54w tubes from aquarium industry

HOT5

LED View attachment 2973721

 

[caretak3r]

This is a very valid point. I did a search and did find him mentioning that here and here. Anything above 200V, and especially 400V at .5A that I would be running can easily cause fibrillation. I was planning on running the solderless connectors and painting a non conductive rubber/plastic over the solder pads, and was thinking about the idea of adding a plexi shield, along with proper handling of course, to minimize these risks. You have me thinking again that it may not be worth it.

I will search again for meanwell PSUs and factor those LDDH drivers into some designs to compare cost and efficiency, although I can tell right now that I will likely have to move to the Vero 18s to make it the most cost effective l/w/$, which will complicate mounting and final assembly, as well as raise costs slightly and reduce efficiency somewhat. But perhaps the added safety is worth all that.

ya, that's what I was thinking - you'd have to move to vero18s to make the cost comparable.

 

[Observe & Report]

Don't forget that the LDD pucks are only dimmable with 100-1kHz PWM at 2.5-6V. You can't dim them with a simple pot or variable DC power supply like you can the bigger MW drivers with 3-in-1 dimming.

 

[MrFlux]

Plan is looking good overthinker. So yeah I tend to warn about the high voltage drivers. It would be terrible if some kid electrocuted himself because of what he read here. On the other hand if you know what you doing and are always aware that there's 400V going into your growroom it is an awfully nice driver.

Your mix of no less than 6 different whites would be quite warm. For the type of plants you have it is often advised to use for example a 1:1 ratio of 2700K + 6500K fluorescents. This has quite a bit more blue in it. I think the 4000K Vero would be most excellent instead. It gives a glorious golden light (none of that yucky yellow-orange), it promotes anti-oxidants in your plants to keep them healthy and it will even give you a nice complexion and prevent winter depression. Instead of posting spectra here is the result of 160W of 4000K Vero 10 power on three different strains over a 10 day period:

 

[overthinkingismything]

Pretty good blend

I am using 2 ufos using Helios LEDs (3500 + 5000)= ~4700K throughout veg. As buds developed I added 3 @ ~ 16w 4ft led tubes (3000K)

Top buds are actually bigger than top buds under my 432w HOT5 panel using exotic 54w tubes from aquarium industry

HOT5 View attachment 2973720

LED View attachment 2973721

LED plant is looking quite good and you are saving a lot of power over the T5HO tubes. I had considered T5, but bulb and fixture cost turned me off compared to running overdriven T8s.

ya, that's what I was thinking - you'd have to move to vero18s to make the cost comparable.

Definitely going to move to the Vero 18s!

Don't forget that the LDD pucks are only dimmable with 100-1kHz PWM at 2.5-6V. You can't dim them with a simple pot or variable DC power supply like you can the bigger MW drivers with 3-in-1 dimming.

Yeah that's a real downside for me. Factor in all the ldd costs, the 5up or 4up boards, extra connections, ect, I don't consider the bucks to a a very good solution at all for these COBS. For 3V single emitters they are hard to beat though for the cost.

I have decided to go with the hlg-185h-1050 running 6 Vero 18s. This keeps it under 200V just in case I have a lapse in judgement somehow plus I get more lumens per watt in exchange for the more difficult mounting vs the vero 10s.

Do you think I should go with the A or B version? I like the screw type connectors on the A and the dimming via the pot seems alright. Although with the B version I could mount a simple pot in a more accessible area. Hell, I could even use pwm and a controller and do sunrise and sunset, ect.

Decisions, decisions...

Plan is looking good overthinker. So yeah I tend to warn about the high voltage drivers. It would be terrible if some kid electrocuted himself because of what he read here. On the other hand if you know what you doing and are always aware that there's 400V going into your growroom it is an awfully nice driver.

Your mix of no less than 6 different whites would be quite warm. For the type of plants you have it is often advised to use for example a 1:1 ratio of 2700K + 6500K fluorescents. This has quite a bit more blue in it. I think the 4000K Vero would be most excellent instead. It gives a glorious golden light (none of that yucky yellow-orange), it promotes anti-oxidants in your plants to keep them healthy and it will even give you a nice complexion and prevent winter depression. Instead of posting spectra here is the result of 160W of 4000K Vero 10 power on three different strains over a 10 day period:

View attachment 2973823View attachment 2973824

If I can get half those results I would be very happy, truly glorious for 10 days!

So, as I said I will be going to the 1.05 Amp version of the Meanwell at ~ 190 V. I told a friend about my little project and he wants one too! We got together and had a chat, and he gave me the go ahead to order the parts for a second one.

We also plan to each build another string off a lower wattage meanwell, say the 120h at .35 A running vero 10s (but not for a month or 2)...

I plan to run in about a 3 x 3 area. The 6 vero 18s will be overhead. The second meanwell will run 12 vero 10s. 5 at pot level pointing up, in a cross pattern with one in the middle. The other 7 will be mounted perpendicular to the ground pointing in to the center of the space at canopy level, located in each of the 4 corners, as well as the midpoint between the these corners on three of the walls.

I can't argue with your results, so I will go all 4k You are right re: no need to be posting spectra. Also, I realized bridgelux hasn't even bothered to post any of the other temperatures.

38K l at 300 W in a 3x3 should be pretty nice when this little project is all wrapped up, methinks. The 26K with just phase one will blow my ODT8s out of the water.

Also, my messages still need to be moderated before they are posted since I am a new user, so it is taking me a little longer than I'd like to reply.

Thanks everyone for the feedback so far! I'm getting excited!

 

[smokey the cat]

Agree with your assesment of colour MrFlux - I think my choice of the 3500K Vero is ok, but the 3000K is more yellow than I expected. I am not a plant, but my Mk.1 eyeball definitely detects a HID-coloured tinge to the light of the 3000K Vero.

I think say to chose a Vero a step cooler than you might expect from reading the general advice you see propagated online for LED.


Just for the curious - what sort of plants are you growing? The only local grower I know of is using cool fluros to grow his Tillandsia collection from seed.

 

[overthinkingismything]

Agree with your assesment of colour MrFlux - I think my choice of the 3500K Vero is ok, but the 3000K is more yellow than I expected. I am not a plant, but my Mk.1 eyeball definitely detects a HID-coloured tinge to the light of the 3000K Vero.

I think say to chose a Vero a step cooler than you might expect from reading the general advice you see propagated online for LED.


Just for the curious - what sort of plants are you growing? The only local grower I know of is using cool fluros to grow his Tillandsia collection from seed.

I have about 20 plants in my house at the moment - including 2 trees (8ft of so). The flowers are bougainvillea and hibiscus. Long story but i got them all for free from a huge indoor garden that shut down. They were running about 100 HIDs in that space, so needless to say they are pretty spoiled. I also don't have the RH or temp in my space at home. I also will be starting and vegging seedlings early this year for my garden, and hope to transplant large for better yields. Tomatoes, peppers, ect.

A quick question; My friend who wishes to also build a light with me is a MM user. He is supplied by a co-op currently, but would perhaps like to become more self-sufficient. In this case, should he build his light with all 4K like mine, or should he go say 3 x 4K and 3 x 3K (or even 2700K), 4K and 3500K, all 3500k? I am really only second guessing the all 4K for him because I would hate for him to build a light that veges great but doesn't flower well if he so chooses to do so, as he is on a much tighter budget than I am as he isn't working right now due to his health problems.

Cheers, I'll be sure to keep you guys posted on my progress!

 

[caretak3r]

OTIM, you got me thinking on the vero 10 angle - it's actually very cost efficient to do 13-14 vero10s andHLG-185C-500B. I'm totally conscious of the high voltage warnings, but I can also see where one can take extra precautions to compensate. If one were doing that, and were going to go with the tslotted heatsink from heatsinkusa -- how much heatsink would be needed for near 200W of vero10s assuming one was planning on active cooling?

 

[Positivity]

I have 360w running on a 2' heatsink USA t-slot. It needs two fast fans covering all the fins to stay cool. When I run the light at 300w it's straight up cool with the fans running. I'd say 150w per 1' of t-slot....180w can be done but you'll need good fans. That's just going by feel of course...no number crunching.

so for 200w of vero 10 I'd imagine a 1' t slot would be hot...a 1.5' would be warm...2' would be cool runnings. I'd go with 2' spread them out and have no problems with cooling

 

[caretak3r]

I have 360w running on a 2' heatsink USA t-slot. It needs two fast fans covering all the fins to stay cool. When I run the light at 300w it's straight up cool with the fans running. I'd say 150w per 1' of t-slot....180w can be done but you'll need good fans. That's just going by feel of course...no number crunching.

so for 200w of vero 10 I'd imagine a 1' t slot would be hot...a 1.5' would be warm...2' would be cool runnings. I'd go with 2' spread them out and have no problems with cooling

thanks - glad to hear from someone with some experience with the product!

 

[smokey the cat]

I have about 20 plants in my house at the moment - including 2 trees (8ft of so). The flowers are bougainvillea and hibiscus. Long story but i got them all for free from a huge indoor garden that shut down. They were running about 100 HIDs in that space, so needless to say they are pretty spoiled. I also don't have the RH or temp in my space at home. I also will be starting and vegging seedlings early this year for my garden, and hope to transplant large for better yields. Tomatoes, peppers, ect.

Kickarse mate, good on you. If they've thrived under HID then any old 3000-4000k Vero should be fine shouldn't they? With fluro the truth is that any colour bulb seemed fine - it was intensity that made the biggest difference.

I know what it's like though as my partner is a plant nut - there's like 50-60 houseplants and cactus in my living area at any one time, to her credit it only seems like half that, lol. Once you start bunching them you do notice they tend to create a bit of a micro climate around them which helps with humidty. But does make it more difficult to keep the place properly dry in winter with the cold & high rainfall around here.

A quick question; My friend who wishes to also build a light with me is a MM user. He is supplied by a co-op currently, but would perhaps like to become more self-sufficient. In this case, should he build his light with all 4K like mine, or should he go say 3 x 4K and 3 x 3K (or even 2700K), 4K and 3500K, all 3500k? I am really only second guessing the all 4K for him because I would hate for him to build a light that veges great but doesn't flower well if he so chooses to do so, as he is on a much tighter budget than I am as he isn't working right now due to his health problems.

I'm only a couple of weeks into flower with my 3000k-3500k combo. If anything I'd prefer more blue I suspect. 4000k and 3500k would be what I'd order if I did it again. I use the v18, each with a meanwell LPF-60d-36 - this combo outputs just over 50W per and is dimmable. Super easy to assemble having one driver per emitter, but doesn't have the coverage of using a greater number of smaller emitters.

 

[overthinkingismything]

OTIM, you got me thinking on the vero 10 angle - it's actually very cost efficient to do 13-14 vero10s andHLG-185C-500B. I'm totally conscious of the high voltage warnings, but I can also see where one can take extra precautions to compensate. If one were doing that, and were going to go with the tslotted heatsink from heatsinkusa -- how much heatsink would be needed for near 200W of vero10s assuming one was planning on active cooling?

You'd want to run 12, and quite possibly 13, depending on the forward voltage of the string so as to leave a little left in the power supply just in case.

I have 360w running on a 2' heatsink USA t-slot. It needs two fast fans covering all the fins to stay cool. When I run the light at 300w it's straight up cool with the fans running. I'd say 150w per 1' of t-slot....180w can be done but you'll need good fans. That's just going by feel of course...no number crunching.

so for 200w of vero 10 I'd imagine a 1' t slot would be hot...a 1.5' would be warm...2' would be cool runnings. I'd go with 2' spread them out and have no problems with cooling

Thanks for posting your experience. It is right in line with my number crunching, which is reassuring! I was estimating 125W per foot on the heatsink USA and about 75W per foot on the Makers t-slot

Kickarse mate, good on you. If they've thrived under HID then any old 3000-4000k Vero should be fine shouldn't they? With fluro the truth is that any colour bulb seemed fine - it was intensity that made the biggest difference.

I know what it's like though as my partner is a plant nut - there's like 50-60 houseplants and cactus in my living area at any one time, to her credit it only seems like half that, lol. Once you start bunching them you do notice they tend to create a bit of a micro climate around them which helps with humidty. But does make it more difficult to keep the place properly dry in winter with the cold & high rainfall around here.


I'm only a couple of weeks into flower with my 3000k-3500k combo. If anything I'd prefer more blue I suspect. 4000k and 3500k would be what I'd order if I did it again. I use the v18, each with a meanwell LPF-60d-36 - this combo outputs just over 50W per and is dimmable. Super easy to assemble having one driver per emitter, but doesn't have the coverage of using a greater number of smaller emitters.

I'm certain that most of the vero line up would work nicely for my purposes. Merely trying to get the absolute most bang for my buck. Gotta love DIY

I'd love to have that many plants but I don't feel like I'd have enough time to care for them all properly. My place doesn't have a whole lot of natural light which makes keeping anything but generic houseplants a bit of a challenge, especially during the drab winter months.

A bit of humidity is a good thing in my case, as I have electric baseboard heating and no central exchange. I run a humidifier 24/7 in the master exactly for this purpose. Maybe if I had all your partners plants in there, I wouldn't need to

Would you rather more blue because you are getting more stretch then you imagined? I know you are growing in a small cab, with the veros at I presume 1.75 A a piece? What square footage are you covering with those 2 COBs? How are the results thus far?

Your K is averaged right at 3250K. A51 panels are using the XTE at 3750K. Maybe 3500K is a good compromise and I should direct him to go 3 x 3000K and 3 x 4000K.

Have you considered dimming the 3000K down to effective shift the spectrum towards blue? Obviously you'd have to give up some light though, which is probably not something you'd want to do.

Cheers

 

[smokey the cat]

Hmmm - looking at what I'm getting is still a bit of a learning curve. My grow's been all kind of messed up in terms of veg time and light cycles, I didn't intend to start flower so soon but here we are.

My thoughts:
I've seen slightly more stretch than I'd have preferred. Not entirely sure this is light-tint related, could have been from my messy light timings and/or running cab light at 25W for a few days I was on holiday.

My drivers can deliver up to 1.67A giving ~52.5W per emitter = 105W total. I'm running at around 60% of max (~60W); seems ok. Turning it to 100W results in significant leaf droop and clear damage to top fan leaves. Possibly caused by close-set emitters meaning a too-bright spot in centre of cab.

Light spread isn't as wide as I'd hope. I only have 90cm of vertice grow space and I have both Vero on one heat sink in centre - which just isn't giving a wide enough spread. I'll reconfigure by next grow, hopefully will also solve light damage in centre.

penetration seems decent. Nice bud set down stem, but still early days.

if I spread the emitters the benefit of having cooler&warmer combo of colours becomes moot. Probably would just grab same colour lights all around next time - for my use over lapping emitters seems overkill. Heck 100W seems overkill, can see why Bonsai Hero panel is only 60 W