• Here is a link to the full explanation: https://rollitup.org/t/welcome-back-did-you-try-turning-it-off-and-on-again.1104810/

Disproving the need for the state apparatus

cannabineer

Ursus marijanus
I don't see how the long c&ps deal with one real-world example: "a seriously mean asshole commanding several hunderd manned AK-47s" in the Somali idiom.

That's been my problem with a Spoonerite vision from day one - no hardness against proven threats from serious hardasses.
 

ChesusRice

Well-Known Member
I don't see how the long c&ps deal with one real-world example: "a seriously mean asshole commanding several hunderd manned AK-47s" in the Somali idiom.

That's been my problem with a Spoonerite vision from day one - no hardness against proven threats from serious hardasses.
What he said.
Although for the life of me I cannot figure out why Rob Roy hasnt moved to Somalia yet
 

cannabineer

Ursus marijanus
What he said.
Although for the life of me I cannot figure out why Rob Roy hasnt moved to Somalia yet
Because an anarcho-voluntarist society is impossible to start where some serious autocrats hold sway.

The interesting intellectual exercise is one of homeostasis: when such are removed, can one keep them from re-accreting absolute power? My hunch is No. i would like to be proven wrong, and the robust counterexample remains elusive.
 

ChesusRice

Well-Known Member
Because an anarcho-voluntarist society is impossible to start where some serious autocrats hold sway.

The interesting intellectual exercise is one of homeostasis: when such are removed, can one keep them from re-accreting absolute power? My hunch is No. i would like to be proven wrong, and the robust counterexample remains elusive.
Even in a pacifist society, they would be victims of "the tragedy of the commons"
 

tokeprep

Well-Known Member
There is a good amount of info here.

Crime control in a stateless society | No Coercion

www.nocoercion.com/.../crime-control-in-a-stateless-society
A couple of points:

1) These answers presume that actors make rational economic decisions. Empirical evidence suggests they people often do the opposite. Any argument presupposing that people will make the best economic decisions is fatally flawed. See Marxism. If actors don't make rational decisions, the theorized systems will not be as efficient or effective as claimed.

2) This statement is downright repugnant: "A rape cost the rapist such-and-such amount, a murder five times as much, and so on. This sort of arrangement is generally preferred by victims, who currently not only suffer from physical violation – but must also pay taxes to incarcerate the criminal. A woman who is raped would usually rather receive a quarter of a million dollars than pay a thousand dollars annually to cage her rapist, which adds insult to injury." Bullshit, obviously written by a man who hasn't known many rape victims. Regardless, most rapists could presumably never repay the debt, meaning there isn't any meaningful consequence for committing the crime. Actually, now that I read the rest of the answer, it doesn't provide any solution at all to violent crime. It just rants that if the state punishes criminals some criminals could rise to power in the state.

I just skimmed another answer on violent crime and it basically says the state causes violent crime, that it will cease to exist if the state ceases to exist. Bullshit. Some people are always going to have a difficult time surviving in a society regardless of how prosperous it is. I'd like to see a real answer about how to deal with the problem instead of these magical "solutions" that are just anti-state rants.
 

tokeprep

Well-Known Member
I don't see how the long c&ps deal with one real-world example: "a seriously mean asshole commanding several hunderd manned AK-47s" in the Somali idiom.

That's been my problem with a Spoonerite vision from day one - no hardness against proven threats from serious hardasses.
The answer seems to be that the armed band should prefer non-violent means because no one will be willing to deal with them otherwise. I doubt the armed bands are going to care about that. They can steal food, weapons, cars, planes, and any other property they need. Obviously the people who would engage in this kind of activity would reason that they have far more to gain from it than legitimate enterprise, which places some limitation on their power/prosperity.

You need only pay your protection agency contract! The problem with for-profit protection agencies would be the fact that their goal is not protection at all but profit. Their incentive is to offer the least service they can possibly get people to pay for. Top notch protection service sure would be expensive, presumably so expensive that a lot of people couldn't afford it, enabling the armed bands to selectively pick them off. With those groups continually gaining strength in their quest for prosperity and power, it seems to me there would be an ever-escalating war.

Perhaps the response will be "That's not happening today, with state-controlled protection agencies, so why would it happen in the absence of the state?" Presumably people in one city or state or region would have no reason to care about what's happening in any other place, since they have no economic incentive to care, which drastically reduces the threat of counter force in a stateless society. In the present, marauding bands could easily overpower the protective forces in some cities, but if it actually happened the state or federal government--without any profits to worry about--would just call up their vast resources from elsewhere to eliminate the problem. The threat of such significant power promises certain defeat in the present; it would be a hopeless endeavor, and that's why no one dares to try.
 

Dr Kynes

Well-Known Member
The answer seems to be that the armed band should prefer non-violent means because no one will be willing to deal with them otherwise. I doubt the armed bands are going to care about that. They can steal food, weapons, cars, planes, and any other property they need. Obviously the people who would engage in this kind of activity would reason that they have far more to gain from it than legitimate enterprise, which places some limitation on their power/prosperity.

You need only pay your protection agency contract! The problem with for-profit protection agencies would be the fact that their goal is not protection at all but profit. Their incentive is to offer the least service they can possibly get people to pay for. Top notch protection service sure would be expensive, presumably so expensive that a lot of people couldn't afford it, enabling the armed bands to selectively pick them off. With those groups continually gaining strength in their quest for prosperity and power, it seems to me there would be an ever-escalating war.

Perhaps the response will be "That's not happening today, with state-controlled protection agencies, so why would it happen in the absence of the state?" Presumably people in one city or state or region would have no reason to care about what's happening in any other place, since they have no economic incentive to care, which drastically reduces the threat of counter force in a stateless society. In the present, marauding bands could easily overpower the protective forces in some cities, but if it actually happened the state or federal government--without any profits to worry about--would just call up their vast resources from elsewhere to eliminate the problem. The threat of such significant power promises certain defeat in the present; it would be a hopeless endeavor, and that's why no one dares to try.



 

OGEvilgenius

Well-Known Member
Anyone claiming utopia in any system would be a moron. However it's really fucking stupid to give the worst people in the world power over everyone (which is exactly what has happened historically).
 

Dr Kynes

Well-Known Member
Anyone claiming utopia in any system would be a moron. However it's really fucking stupid to give the worst people in the world power over everyone (which is exactly what has happened historically).
and if any two people could agree on who was a good choice for our supreme leader, we would have an accord.



The Emperor Preserves, The Emperor Protects.

Purge The Unclean!

Abhor The Mutant!
 

Rob Roy

Well-Known Member
I'm not in the mood to hear you talk about fellatio.



1. Yes.
2. Actually yes it does, and it's incredibly short sighted and naive to think otherwise. There is nothing to stop further subdivision (and agreements made within) by another group of the society to exploit another. What this type of society does is eliminate freedom of choice and sets individuals in a society up to be forced into contracts that are not at all in their interests in order to barely survive. It's another way of an institution consolidating power.

The greater the distance the subdivision of "control" is from a central controlling authority the greater the opportunity for freedom. Freedom ,being the opposite of government works best when THE INDIVIDUAL is free to live her or his life.
 

Rob Roy

Well-Known Member
One hell of a long read for something that absolutely does not address the issue.

If me and a group of friends want to have sex with your wife without your permission there is no contract involved. Therefore there is no contract broken. We are in a stateless society so there is no law against it nor any form of force to prevent it.

If you get involved and we kill you and burn down the house you had a mortgage on where does that leave your raped and beaten wife??

I am not being graphic for the fun of it, I am trying to make you realize that your utopia cannot possibly exist in reality.

See Post #16 in this thread.
 

Rob Roy

Well-Known Member
A couple of points:

1) These answers presume that actors make rational economic decisions. Empirical evidence suggests they people often do the opposite. Any argument presupposing that people will make the best economic decisions is fatally flawed. See Marxism. If actors don't make rational decisions, the theorized systems will not be as efficient or effective as claimed.

2) This statement is downright repugnant: "A rape cost the rapist such-and-such amount, a murder five times as much, and so on. This sort of arrangement is generally preferred by victims, who currently not only suffer from physical violation – but must also pay taxes to incarcerate the criminal. A woman who is raped would usually rather receive a quarter of a million dollars than pay a thousand dollars annually to cage her rapist, which adds insult to injury." Bullshit, obviously written by a man who hasn't known many rape victims. Regardless, most rapists could presumably never repay the debt, meaning there isn't any meaningful consequence for committing the crime. Actually, now that I read the rest of the answer, it doesn't provide any solution at all to violent crime. It just rants that if the state punishes criminals some criminals could rise to power in the state.

I just skimmed another answer on violent crime and it basically says the state causes violent crime, that it will cease to exist if the state ceases to exist. Bullshit. Some people are always going to have a difficult time surviving in a society regardless of how prosperous it is. I'd like to see a real answer about how to deal with the problem instead of these magical "solutions" that are just anti-state rants.
You are right some people will make irrational decisions. So provide the systems for them to exponentially increase their power by embracing a coercive government style? The biggest "crimes" are not committed by persons acting as "warlords", they are committed by sanctified institutions. Can you say Stalin? Hitler? FDR ? Truman? I know you can.
 

Dr.J20

Well-Known Member
instead of molyneux, i think you should look into Antonio Negri, Mario Tronti, Paulo Virno, Bifo, and Gramsci. Most (all with the exception of Gramsci) contribute(d) to the Autonomia movement. It is a more developed stance than Molyneux, and deals with some of the issues others have raised with a great deal more subtlety and philosophical prowess than Molyneux seems able to summon.
cheers,
Dr.J
 

tokeprep

Well-Known Member
You are right some people will make irrational decisions. So provide the systems for them to exponentially increase their power by embracing a coercive government style? The biggest "crimes" are not committed by persons acting as "warlords", they are committed by sanctified institutions. Can you say Stalin? Hitler? FDR ? Truman? I know you can.
I'm far, far more interested in the violent crime issue that no one seems to want to deal with.
 

Dr Kynes

Well-Known Member
instead of molyneux, i think you should look into Antonio Negri, Mario Tronti, Paulo Virno, Bifo, and Gramsci. Most (all with the exception of Gramsci) contribute(d) to the Autonomia movement. It is a more developed stance than Molyneux, and deals with some of the issues others have raised with a great deal more subtlety and philosophical prowess than Molyneux seems able to summon.
cheers,
Dr.J



Shout-Outs to the Marxist peanut gallery aside, they all just reiterate Trotsky's permanent revolution.
why not go to the source and cite Trotsky?
 

Rob Roy

Well-Known Member
I'm far, far more interested in the violent crime issue that no one seems to want to deal with.

Then be part of the solution. The most violence in history is committed by coercive governments, not peaceful voluntarists.
 
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