Why does co2 hurt my plants!?

Ever time I turn on co2, the plants stop drinking!? Instead of the coco being dry and ready to drink more, the coco is still wet and the plants seem to have stopped growing!!

900-1200 ppm. The co2 is generated from a natural gas burner. No natural gas leaks. Im keeping the humidity below 50%.

Has anyone had this problem? No one at the grow store has every heard of co2 HARMING the plants. :confused:
 

FilthyFletch

Mr I Can Do That For Half
Are your temps inside the grow area kept at least 80 degrees F when using co2 as they need warmer temps in the 80-85 range for correct co2 usage. You are still doing room air exchanges when using co2 right as you still have to vent the old air out a few times a day and bring fresh air in and then the co2 comes back on. 3 to 4 air exchanges a day during flower co2 usage no co2 in veg
 

a mongo frog

Well-Known Member
Are your temps inside the grow area kept at least 80 degrees F when using co2 as they need warmer temps in the 80-85 range for correct co2 usage. You are still doing room air exchanges when using co2 right as you still have to vent the old air out a few times a day and bring fresh air in and then the co2 comes back on. 3 to 4 air exchanges a day during flower co2 usage no co2 in veg
why would one have to bring in fresh air? do u mean if your not scrubbing your room its a good idea?
 

joe macclennan

Well-Known Member
venting a sealed room is ass backwards fletch. It defeats the purpose of being sealed in the first place. every time I see someone post this I have to shake my head.
 

GhostBud420

Well-Known Member
i dont fully understand the value of the air exchanges. maybe for mold reasons, im not sure if this applies
 

FilthyFletch

Mr I Can Do That For Half
Its actually not if you deal with co2 you know air exchange MUST be done. You use dampers and timers if you do not exchange the air your plants suffer. The basic setup of a sealed room is it is sealed from the outside except on command. Say during lights on you are adding CO2. You will have intake and exhaust setup. these are sealed closed via dampers. You fill the sealed room with co2 then most do the air exchanges every 6 hours. Your co2 is timed oppsosite the co2 fills....Sooo exchange one you vent the old air out via an exhaust vent drawn through a carbon filter while at your intake you damper opens and you bring fresh new air in. the time is set on the cfm of your fan and size of your area. Then the timers go off for me in like a 4x8 tent I set it for 5 minutes. The fans go off the dampers close and 1 minute after the dampers close you restart your co2 fill and monitor back to the 1200-1500 ppm rate. I set one exchange just before lights on 2 during the 12 hours and one just as the lights go out as co2 is not used when lights are off so the fresh o2 brought in is needed by the plants. This is a sealed room and it uses co2 and it gives the needed air exchange you must have. Your fans in the area keep the air moving, reduce humidity and you keep fans down low blowing up since co2 is heavier then air....Joe Macclennan you either do not use co2 or are doing so very wrong if you are not doing air exchange. This is very very basic knowledge so I have to shake my head when someone who has no idea what he is talking about trys to interject information that is so far off base. If you do some basic reading and studying and visit any expirenced grower using co2 you d see this right away. Go to a commercial green house running propane co2 generators and they have huge dampers and fans for the purpose of refreshing the air. You must have new non stagnant air or your killing the plants and loosing the entire purpose of co2.
 

a mongo frog

Well-Known Member
Its actually not if you deal with co2 you know air exchange MUST be done. You use dampers and timers if you do not exchange the air your plants suffer. The basic setup of a sealed room is it is sealed from the outside except on command. Say during lights on you are adding CO2. You will have intake and exhaust setup. these are sealed closed via dampers. You fill the sealed room with co2 then most do the air exchanges every 6 hours. Your co2 is timed oppsosite the co2 fills....Sooo exchange one you vent the old air out via an exhaust vent drawn through a carbon filter while at your intake you damper opens and you bring fresh new air in. the time is set on the cfm of your fan and size of your area. Then the timers go off for me in like a 4x8 tent I set it for 5 minutes. The fans go off the dampers close and 1 minute after the dampers close you restart your co2 fill and monitor back to the 1200-1500 ppm rate. I set one exchange just before lights on 2 during the 12 hours and one just as the lights go out as co2 is not used when lights are off so the fresh o2 brought in is needed by the plants. This is a sealed room and it uses co2 and it gives the needed air exchange you must have. Your fans in the area keep the air moving, reduce humidity and you keep fans down low blowing up since co2 is heavier then air....Joe Macclennan you either do not use co2 or are doing so very wrong if you are not doing air exchange. This is very very basic knowledge so I have to shake my head when someone who has no idea what he is talking about trys to interject information that is so far off base. If you do some basic reading and studying and visit any expirenced grower using co2 you d see this right away. Go to a commercial green house running propane co2 generators and they have huge dampers and fans for the purpose of refreshing the air. You must have new non stagnant air or your killing the plants and loosing the entire purpose of co2.
what is stagnant air? what does it consist of? and what does it do to plants?
 

joe macclennan

Well-Known Member
Its actually not if you deal with co2 you know air exchange MUST be done. You use dampers and timers if you do not exchange the air your plants suffer. The basic setup of a sealed room is it is sealed from the outside except on command. Say during lights on you are adding CO2. You will have intake and exhaust setup. these are sealed closed via dampers. You fill the sealed room with co2 then most do the air exchanges every 6 hours. Your co2 is timed oppsosite the co2 fills....Sooo exchange one you vent the old air out via an exhaust vent drawn through a carbon filter while at your intake you damper opens and you bring fresh new air in. the time is set on the cfm of your fan and size of your area. Then the timers go off for me in like a 4x8 tent I set it for 5 minutes. The fans go off the dampers close and 1 minute after the dampers close you restart your co2 fill and monitor back to the 1200-1500 ppm rate. I set one exchange just before lights on 2 during the 12 hours and one just as the lights go out as co2 is not used when lights are off so the fresh o2 brought in is needed by the plants. This is a sealed room and it uses co2 and it gives the needed air exchange you must have. Your fans in the area keep the air moving, reduce humidity and you keep fans down low blowing up since co2 is heavier then air....Joe Macclennan you either do not use co2 or are doing so very wrong if you are not doing air exchange. This is very very basic knowledge so I have to shake my head when someone who has no idea what he is talking about trys to interject information that is so far off base. If you do some basic reading and studying and visit any expirenced grower using co2 you d see this right away. Go to a commercial green house running propane co2 generators and they have huge dampers and fans for the purpose of refreshing the air. You must have new non stagnant air or your killing the plants and loosing the entire purpose of co2.
well you seem quite sure of yourself fletch. I will indeed look into this.
 

joe macclennan

Well-Known Member
still looking. One source says once a day is sufficient most so far say no venting is necessary then there is this one. http://www.ngma.com/industry/Carbon_Dioxide_Enrichment.pdf


CO2 Concentration and Plants
Photosynthesis is the process of plants using light energy to convert absorbed carbon dioxide (CO2) and
water into sugars. Plants use these sugars for growth through the process of respiration.
Plants absorb CO2 through their stomatal openings located mainly on the underside of leaves. Although
light, moisture, temperature and humidity levels all affect the rate of CO2 absorption, the concentration of
CO2 outside the leaves is a significant influence.
The concentration of CO2 in ambient outside air commonly varies from 300 to 500 parts per million (ppm)
or more by volume depending on the season, time of day and the proximity of CO2 producers such as
combustion or composting, or CO2 absorbers such as plants or bodies of water. Plants growing in
greenhouses, particularly “tight” double‐layer structures with a reduced air infiltration rate, can reduce
CO2 levels to well below ambient levels, greatly reducing the rate of photosynthesis. Conversely, enriching
the concentration of CO2 above ambient levels will significantly increase the rate of photosynthesis. In
general, a drop in CO2 levels below ambient has a stronger negative effect on plant growth than the
positive effects of enriching CO2 levels above ambient.
Daily CO2 levels in un‐enriched greenhouse environments will climb to several hundred ppm above
outdoor ambient at night due to CO2 produced by plant and microbial respiration. CO2 levels drop quite
rapidly after sunrise as the crop’s photosynthetically‐driven consumption of CO2 exceeds the basic rate of
respiration. In the absence of some other source, CO2 levels remain low all day limiting plant growth. At
dusk, plant and microbial respiration once again begins to accumulate CO2 in the greenhouse.
CO2 is added in some greenhouses to increase growth and enhance crop yields. The ideal concentration
depends on the crop, light intensity, temperature and the stage of crop growth. This document is intended
to provide the basics of CO2 enrichment so growers, in conjunction with industry experts, can research the
best options for their particular greenhouse operations.
How is CO2 concentration monitored?
Most growers do not monitor CO2 levels in the greenhouse because they have no intention of controlling
it. As long as their crops are growing and developing to their satisfaction, this is a reasonable approach.
CO2 levels in the greenhouse may be monitored using relatively low‐cost dual beam infrared CO2 gas
monitors. These monitors may be linked to climate control systems that integrate other factors such as
indoor & outdoor air temperature, humidity & light intensity. More expensive monitors with higher
accuracies are available, but in most applications reliability and economical cost are the most important
factors.
Although basic CO2 dosing may be applied without monitoring CO2 levels, the relatively low cost of a good
CO2 metering system pays for itself in the form of cost savings from supplemental CO2 sources.
When is CO2 enrichment needed?
CO2 enrichment is not required as long as the crops are growing and developing to the complete
satisfaction of the grower, or if high ventilation rates make CO2 enrichment uneconomical. CO2
enrichment should be considered, however, if crop production and quality are below required levels. In general, crop production times from late fall through early spring increases the potential need for CO2
enrichment as it coincides with reduced ventilation rates due to colder outdoor air temperatures. As
ventilation rates are increased for cooling and dehumidification from late spring to early fall, the cost of
CO2 enrichment escalates while the benefit to the crop may be minimal or reduced.
As photosynthesis and CO2 consumption happens only during daylight hours, CO2 enrichment at night is
not required. In general, CO2 enrichment systems should be turned on 1 or 2 hours after sunrise, and
turned off several hours before sunset, however, additional CO2 enrichment may be needed if
supplemental grow‐lighting is used.
How are CO2 levels enriched?
1. Maximize Natural (Free) CO2 Supply: Maximize ventilation rates whenever possible starting 1 or 2
hours after sunrise when the overnight build‐up of CO2 has been depleted. Improve horizontal air flow to
distribute available CO2 evenly throughout the crop and to reduce the leaf boundary layer, which will
improve the diffusion of CO2 into the stomatal openings of each leaf. Keep plants healthy and
well‐watered so they are not forced to close their stomatal openings due to stress. Depending on the crop,
consider using natural sources of CO2 such as decomposing straw bales and/or organic soil mixes in your
production system.
2. Liquid or Bottled CO2 Gas: When outside air conditions are too extreme for ventilation, additional CO2
is available in the form of liquid or bottled CO2 gas. Specific processes are required for the safe & proper
handling as well as the effective use of CO2 from these sources. Liquid CO2 must be fully vaporized before
delivering into the greenhouse, and manufacturers’ instructions and local codes should be strictly adhered
to.
3. CO2 from Carbon‐Based Fuels: Gas‐fired appliances generate CO2 and water vapor as primary
byproducts of combustion. These appliances include equipment that is specifically designed & certified as
CO2 generating appliances, un‐vented forced‐air primary space heaters, and hot water boiler heating
systems with flue gas condensers specifically designed for CO2 enrichment.
Achieving complete combustion is the key to success of CO2 enrichment through appliances burning
natural or propane gas. Incomplete combustion may occur due to relatively common factors such as
improper or fluctuating gas pressure, impurities in the gas supply, inadequate oxygen for combustion, wind
disturbance in the burner and clogged gas orifices. Harmful byproducts of incomplete combustion include
Nitrogen Oxides, Carbon Monoxide and Ethylene.
To increase the likelihood of complete combustion, it is recommended to use only gas‐fired appliances that
are certified by 3rd‐party testing agencies (CSA, ETL, UL, etc.) to meet nationally recognized safety
standards. Agency‐certified appliances should only be used for the applications that they are certified for,
and the appliances should include installation, operating & maintenance instructions with the product.
These instructions should be strictly adhered to and saved in a convenient place.
As water vapor is also a primary byproduct of combustion, un‐vented gas appliances have the potential to
create difficulties in the naturally humid greenhouse environment. Condensation due to high humidity
promotes many plant diseases. Condensation from combustion is also slightly acidic, which may
prematurely corrode metal structures, equipment and wiring on contact.
Building codes and manufacturers of un‐vented gas appliances typically require minimum rates of air
changes in the greenhouse per volume of fuel burned. Although introducing fresh outside air will increase
greenhouse heating costs in colder weather, these ventilation rates are necessary to ensure adequate
supplies of oxygen for complete combustion, and to prevent the build‐up of unwanted water vapor and/or
contaminants due to incomplete combustion.
NGMA Helpful HintsIs CO2 enrichment safe?
CO2 is harmless to humans at all reasonable dosing levels, and OSHA has established workplace standards
for worker exposure. While humans can work safely at these elevated CO2 levels, many crops start to
show undesirable growth responses at CO2 concentrations above 1,200 to 2,000 ppm.
For gas‐fired CO2 generators, adequate ventilation air should be introduced to provide enough oxygen for
complete combustion, and to limit the build‐up of water vapor and other potential contaminants in the
greenhouse.
General Tips & Conclusion
CO2 enrichment can be a useful tool for maximizing the quantity and quality of your greenhouse product.
Healthier crops and higher yields helps to satisfy customers, command higher prices and reduce costs, all
of which makes a greenhouse operation more competitive. The decision to proceed with CO2 enrichment
should follow a thorough cost/benefit analysis, and success depends on each grower developing a strategy
based on their unique combination of greenhouse structure, crop type, local weather, stage of production
and capital/operating budgets. Once a CO2 enrichment strategy is selected, always follow the instructions
and installation & service manuals of equipment and/or chemical manufacturers. Make sure national and
local codes covering greenhouse operations are adhered to, and use qualified & experienced service
agencies and technicians for installing and maintaining CO2 enrichment systems.
Reviewing these Helpful Hints and gathering more information from available horticultural industry experts
and resources will help you make informed decisions, and enhance any CO2 enrichment strategy’s
effectiveness.
For more information, please contact:
National Greenhouse Manufacturers Association
717‐238‐4530 or [email protected]
NGMA Help




not calling you a liar fletch. but this doesn't back your opinion up. I'm still looking though.

do you have any ideas for where I can read this opinion elsewhere? an accredited source?
 

Merlin34

Well-Known Member
Fletch is right. I worked at an industrial medicinal grow and yes the venting was on timers. I can't remember the exact times that the rooms were vented a day, several times during lights on. And they were always vented for longer periods right at lights on and lights off to fully vent the rooms. One of these rooms had 75k watts in it, so big rooms, granted our co2 tank was as big as a truck...

Sent from Northern Colorado.
 

joe macclennan

Well-Known Member
ok so i'm gonna go vent my co2 enriched room right now. BUt only because I have to go in there to do some work. I'll be back and will certainly research this further.
 

a mongo frog

Well-Known Member
Fletch is right. I worked at an industrial medicinal grow and yes the venting was on timers. I can't remember the exact times that the rooms were vented a day, several times during lights on. And they were always vented for longer periods right at lights on and lights off to fully vent the rooms. One of these rooms had 75k watts in it, so big rooms, granted our co2 tank was as big as a truck...

Sent from Northern Colorado.
r u sure they vented right when lights went on? and how did they coordinate their exhaust timers with the co2 controllers?
 

Merlin34

Well-Known Member
The rooms were vented right before the lights came on. As far as the controls went we had a huge environmental control panel. When venting during lights on the co2 would turn off. It was crazy how fast the ppms went back up after the vents closed. Huge hissing sound as the co2 pumped back into the room. As far as the other posters question about why greenhouses don't do this I can't answer. I just know that's how it was done where I worked so that there was fresh air periodically coming into the grow. I guess I figured it to be like my house, stale air isn't pleasant,air born particulates build up. I'm no scientist so the scientific reasoning I can't tell you.

Sent from Northern Colorado.
 

a mongo frog

Well-Known Member
The rooms were vented right before the lights came on. As far as the controls went we had a huge environmental control panel. When venting during lights on the co2 would turn off. It was crazy how fast the ppms went back up after the vents closed. Huge hissing sound as the co2 pumped back into the room. As far as the other posters question about why greenhouses don't do this I can't answer. I just know that's how it was done where I worked so that there was fresh air periodically coming into the grow. I guess I figured it to be like my house, stale air isn't pleasant,air born particulates build up. I'm no scientist so the scientific reasoning I can't tell you.

Sent from Northern Colorado.
u vent the stagnant air out your house? what is stagnant air? di the grow room u worked in have scrubbers on the ground? I'm getting so confused.
 
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