RedCarpetMatches
Well-Known Member
Kermit's back!!! Whats up FJ...ribbit.
Is an Apache better than a Cob DIY...no troll attempt intended.
Is an Apache better than a Cob DIY...no troll attempt intended.
2000$ budget what light should i get?
- Thread starter sourdieselyumyum
- Start date
Greengenes707
Well-Known Member
EH I am not apache so you can contact them about getting lights and complain that someone made an obvious comparison. I just state what I feel(well based in fact and data) and also know I'm not the only one who has had such thoughts about the two lights. Nor did I state a flaw in this thread...just that apache stepped it to your price point with the new light...facts. 1875 someone recently posted one here a few weeks ago they got 4 of your units(not sure which, but they are all with in reason price wise to generalize) and that is with a discount...so count AT discount....2000 for AT or 1875 for yours...that makes the decision much less about price than it did for an at200/120 vs the sgs/xgs. So sorry you hate to be compared but it happens...I have sat around for a long time saying nothing, because the price difference was worth the decision and I am a realist despite what you may think, and actually recommending your lights regularly and in high praise so don't act like I attack a51 ever. I have said nothing obsurd or outlandish, just observations, that are well based. And was just one negative comment recently that was the "copy" one you are referring to....I know what I said and meant it. Nothing against the light per say, it's a good light.
How many different people(even a51 die hards) posted that apache is the best but expensive so instead get...and one of those second suggestions being a51...as well as others, but directly compare your light and apache's may of times??? I let the lights I use speak for them selves and continue to so I don't know where you are going with that comment. Like I said I am not AT...specially not their pocket books so figure out your test mr. owner. If you don't trust me to do it that is fine and totally understandable(I wouldn't either)...but you brought it up and it's not my job to get it done...if it matters to you, you will find a way. In the mean time I will keep growing big with my AT's and watch what others are doing in the community for prospective new lights, but I started at the top and things are only going to get better quicker form here.
And EH...I have the at600 going up against a 1000hps so I think a quality side by side is going already on my end. Good luck with your project. Maybe i'll get around to it next run.
As for apache's chips...they are only 1w's in the at120 which was release in early 2011(old). The at200 and at600 both use 5w capable chips...Nichia's
RedCarpetMatches
Well-Known Member
Couldn't read that huge paragraph. You can build a redic set up for that money. It will be comparable to ANYTHING out there.
hyroot
Well-Known Member
How about everyone give me their and I'll be the judge lol. Its worth a try.
if you run a51 or apache, or inda gro, or Hans, or CMH or hps. There pros and cons for each. Its all really preference. Imo CMH will kick the shit out of all the lights. Run a little more watts for coverage. Less than hps though. I went with inda gro and a51 originally for the most coverage area for the least amount of watts. I was skeptical about the IG's going in which I've explained several times. Came out with good results. Imo anything with high cri vs efficiency . I think high cri will win. The more even the spectrum the better. That's why 432w t5 with flora suns will out perform a 1000w. In grams per watts or yield per plant. The largest buds I ever got came from t5. The most dense came from inda gro
if you run a51 or apache, or inda gro, or Hans, or CMH or hps. There pros and cons for each. Its all really preference. Imo CMH will kick the shit out of all the lights. Run a little more watts for coverage. Less than hps though. I went with inda gro and a51 originally for the most coverage area for the least amount of watts. I was skeptical about the IG's going in which I've explained several times. Came out with good results. Imo anything with high cri vs efficiency . I think high cri will win. The more even the spectrum the better. That's why 432w t5 with flora suns will out perform a 1000w. In grams per watts or yield per plant. The largest buds I ever got came from t5. The most dense came from inda gro
RedCarpetMatches
Well-Known Member
I love it all!!! I can't wait to build a cob set up. I will add some HID for intensity and UV. Efficiency doesn't mean shit if you're not yielding.
hyroot
Well-Known Member
they have Cree cxa3070's that are 93 cri. I forget if they are 2700k or 3000k. I think they are around $40 per cob from digikey. I'm going to build a 6 cob with Cree 4000k and 5000k for a 4x4 for veg. I have to wait til I have enough loot to buy everything.
RedCarpetMatches
Well-Known Member
CannaBare bought 100 of the 2700s. That's where I'll start. Going to combine that with CMH and a new far red schedule. 14/10 down to 12/12.
Oddjob
Well-Known Member
So you're saying it would take two Mars II 1200's to cover the area of 4x4?
Don't worry brotha I'm hangin in there strong but my wallet starts to pucker its asshole when I go to pull my credit card out. Those are some real nice nugs Bad Karma, the calyx development looks phenomenal.Apache Tech all the way!
The Black Dog may grow buds in the short term, but the way it's diodes are driven, it will burn itself out quickly.
Find member Greengenes707 in the LED forums, he is our resident Apache Tech expert.
He can give you give you all of the details and a discount code for added savings.
Oddjob, if you want something that works as advertised, pull the trigger on an Apache, or wait it out for A51.
I have grown with HPS, T5, CFL, LED, and sunlight.
Out of all of those, if I could choose only one type of light to grow with, it would be LED, without a second thought.
I know it's unnerving to throw down a good chunk of cash like $2K and HOPE that you made the right choice.
I can tell you from first hand experience, Area 51 is the real deal.
Their lights do exactly what they claim to, if you don't believe me, ask this Cheeseberry plant that was grown under one.
When I bought my first LED lights, around 4 years ago, I spent well over $3K.
I still have them and they're still going strong.
Those lights only have 1W diodes, but look what can be done with those 1W diodes.
Apache has much better technology this.
As for the Top LED Mars II panels, I would stay away.
I know they seem tempting, but if you want something that works as advertised, they are not the way to go.
Drunk girls at last call seem tempting, too.
But drunk girls at last call, girls that you know you'll never see again, are always the ones that give you herpes.
Stay strong and hang in there for something better, you're worth it.
earthling420
Well-Known Member
Hey GGenes, saw your scrog grow. You def know what you're doing and clearly know about lights.
Now I was wondering what your take on CLW lights are, and the new models too. I appreciate any feedback you have as well as others. THANKS
EDIT: just to clarify, im not trying to endorse anything lol im using the CLW 400 right, have $ to upgrade my 4' wide 2' depth 7' high area
I was also curious why one would go with the red and blue apache over the red and white. The red and white looks to have a more even spectrum. Correct me if im wrong please.
Now I was wondering what your take on CLW lights are, and the new models too. I appreciate any feedback you have as well as others. THANKS
EDIT: just to clarify, im not trying to endorse anything lol im using the CLW 400 right, have $ to upgrade my 4' wide 2' depth 7' high area
I was also curious why one would go with the red and blue apache over the red and white. The red and white looks to have a more even spectrum. Correct me if im wrong please.
Greengenes707
Well-Known Member
Thanks for the kind words,
CLW seem to be a good light. Not the best in efficiency, but the performance is there from what I have seen. I have heard they run a little on the hotter side comparatively to other better led's. I don't think there will be a huge difference with the new lint, but I thnk it has more whites in it, so just that would be worth the upgrade.
I would use them both or put the new one on a mover. Just moving it a couple inches maybe 6 each way will really imorve the spread of one unit for a longer space like yours.
You are right about the evenness, the white covers the whole PAR range as where the R/B is only 2 wavelengths to hit the peaks. Red/Blue apaches are still in high demand I'm told. Despite what facts are put in front of some people, they still want R/B's. They are defiantly more red heavy than even the R2. Many are actually using them for targeted supplemental spectrum...so like super charging the R/B of the already full spectrum sun for a greenhouse crop.
CLW seem to be a good light. Not the best in efficiency, but the performance is there from what I have seen. I have heard they run a little on the hotter side comparatively to other better led's. I don't think there will be a huge difference with the new lint, but I thnk it has more whites in it, so just that would be worth the upgrade.
I would use them both or put the new one on a mover. Just moving it a couple inches maybe 6 each way will really imorve the spread of one unit for a longer space like yours.
You are right about the evenness, the white covers the whole PAR range as where the R/B is only 2 wavelengths to hit the peaks. Red/Blue apaches are still in high demand I'm told. Despite what facts are put in front of some people, they still want R/B's. They are defiantly more red heavy than even the R2. Many are actually using them for targeted supplemental spectrum...so like super charging the R/B of the already full spectrum sun for a greenhouse crop.
gk skunky
Well-Known Member
Like Bad Karma said I think I'm leaning in the direction as him. I've grown with a lot of different things from the sun to the indoor beginning days being clueless and trying things like halogen and mercury vapor, then flos of all sorts from T12 to T5 and CFLs, various sizes of MH and HPS, and CMH. LED is new to me and other than that plasma and induction are really the only others I haven't used. LEDs are a strong contender. I don't think I'd ever go back to HPS honestly, if I were to do something other than LED or possibly induction I would go back CMH.
Now on the apache and A51 thing, I'd love to try the two out. Send some my way I'll clear out a spare bedroom.
LOL
Now on the apache and A51 thing, I'd love to try the two out. Send some my way I'll clear out a spare bedroom.
LOL
RedCarpetMatches
Well-Known Member
Spend the money on Bodhi and get the best genetics!!! Then get yourself a CMH and supplement some 660nm LED!!! Recipe for DANK!
earthling420
Well-Known Member
I always give credit where it's due.
That sounds like a very honest review. I was hoping you have used it but that still helps thx
A light mover is a nice touch, but I don't think I will get one just cause I have my filter and silencer and fan up top. And one less thing to worry about right now. Will keep it in mind for sure for other setups as well. Gonna do a perpetual grow.
Ok, I knew I wasn't crazy. I guess I don't quite understand white light yet though. Hmmm, I would want the apache, as I know it is highest quality, just not sure if the extra weight, quality, and speed of growth would be worth the $ for my needs, at least right now..
btw are the smaller apaches as loud as your 600?
Eraserhead
Well-Known Member
I've seen you call A51 an "Apache Copy" more than once now, just a quick Google search yielded this:
A51 is in no way a copy of Apache. Matter of a fact, the SGS-160 is based off of an earlier A51 model from 2012, 120x3w with red and white LEDs, 225w at the plug, 11"x16" size panel.
A51's red and white spectrum is based off of A51's red, white and blue spectrum from earlier. There came a time that I wanted to add more white, and in turn would have had too much blue, so I took the blues out because the whites had more than enough blue in them.
A51 is no more of a copy of Apache than Apache is a copy of Blackstar. They're all different LED companies doing totally different things.
As far as A51 only good for small areas with low panel numbers, that is false. A51 will cover a 4x4 just as good as Apache, matter of a fact, I will say A51 will do a better job of it, and in the end, it will cost less to do. I'll break it down: 4x A51 rw150 @ 155w each = 620w compared to 1x Apache AT600 @ 660w. With the A51s, you have 4 points of light that can be adjusted independently from each other to accommodate different canopy heights. Also, during veg, you can run 1x A51 in 100w veg mode, whereas the Apache has only 2 modes, ON and OFF. It's 660w or nothing. You do not need 660w with a ton of it being red to veg. As far as cost to light up the 4x4 with either company, it will cost about the same.
I'll put my money where my mouth is, I am offering to fund an entire A51/Apache 2x 4x4 side by side. I'll pay for the 2 tents, I'll pay for the AT600, and I'll put up the A51 lights. Whoever does the side by side needs to be approved by both Apache and A51.
A51 is in no way a copy of Apache. Matter of a fact, the SGS-160 is based off of an earlier A51 model from 2012, 120x3w with red and white LEDs, 225w at the plug, 11"x16" size panel.
A51's red and white spectrum is based off of A51's red, white and blue spectrum from earlier. There came a time that I wanted to add more white, and in turn would have had too much blue, so I took the blues out because the whites had more than enough blue in them.
A51 is no more of a copy of Apache than Apache is a copy of Blackstar. They're all different LED companies doing totally different things.
As far as A51 only good for small areas with low panel numbers, that is false. A51 will cover a 4x4 just as good as Apache, matter of a fact, I will say A51 will do a better job of it, and in the end, it will cost less to do. I'll break it down: 4x A51 rw150 @ 155w each = 620w compared to 1x Apache AT600 @ 660w. With the A51s, you have 4 points of light that can be adjusted independently from each other to accommodate different canopy heights. Also, during veg, you can run 1x A51 in 100w veg mode, whereas the Apache has only 2 modes, ON and OFF. It's 660w or nothing. You do not need 660w with a ton of it being red to veg. As far as cost to light up the 4x4 with either company, it will cost about the same.
I'll put my money where my mouth is, I am offering to fund an entire A51/Apache 2x 4x4 side by side. I'll pay for the 2 tents, I'll pay for the AT600, and I'll put up the A51 lights. Whoever does the side by side needs to be approved by both Apache and A51.
Bad Karma
Well-Known Member
Raises hand and offers to do the Apache/A51 grow off.
Greengenes707
Well-Known Member
Sweet EH, but your just barking up the wrong tree. Talk to APACHE like I said. Ya, I have a great relationship with AT, but that isn't clouding anything. If you think there are no similarities enough to say what I said then your ridiculous.
You can say what ever about how you came to a51's product direction. The fact is is that is very similar in multiple aspects to an at120 which came out in 2011. I stand by what I said.
Talk to AT, buy the light if need be, and do the test. But if you are trying to cal lmd out somehow I don't get it.
No offense dawg, but to AT, the guy with a ton of a51's to begin with, is about is likely to get lights as I would get a51's. But you are the caliber of grower that would be wanted no doubt.
What is more possible than finding a completely unbiased, yet qualified grower, is to have dawg do one and then me do one. Neither I, nor dawg, are actually biased(we simply want results and know what gets them)...but history and personally uses of lights say differently. Don't fix what ain't broke is more our mind sets(speaking for myself at least). I know I will never be the one for this, and shouldn't be, but my point is that it's going to be hard to find someone to do it perfectly unless it someone completely offline and neutral like a dispensary or something. So by all means get it facilitated, but don't think I am the one to be calling out unless you want me to do it. I don't like to loose or fail or grow crappy/bad weed...I would push to the max for whatever I am using. And now might just buy 4 a51 after this run and do it myself...like you should do maybe, if you grew.
I get what your saying, but you should check my canopy(s)...you can put a level on it.
You can say what ever about how you came to a51's product direction. The fact is is that is very similar in multiple aspects to an at120 which came out in 2011. I stand by what I said.
Talk to AT, buy the light if need be, and do the test. But if you are trying to cal lmd out somehow I don't get it.
No offense dawg, but to AT, the guy with a ton of a51's to begin with, is about is likely to get lights as I would get a51's. But you are the caliber of grower that would be wanted no doubt.
What is more possible than finding a completely unbiased, yet qualified grower, is to have dawg do one and then me do one. Neither I, nor dawg, are actually biased(we simply want results and know what gets them)...but history and personally uses of lights say differently. Don't fix what ain't broke is more our mind sets(speaking for myself at least). I know I will never be the one for this, and shouldn't be, but my point is that it's going to be hard to find someone to do it perfectly unless it someone completely offline and neutral like a dispensary or something. So by all means get it facilitated, but don't think I am the one to be calling out unless you want me to do it. I don't like to loose or fail or grow crappy/bad weed...I would push to the max for whatever I am using. And now might just buy 4 a51 after this run and do it myself...like you should do maybe, if you grew.
I get what your saying, but you should check my canopy(s)...you can put a level on it.
PetFlora
Well-Known Member
A throw down. Awesome!
Now, if the 2 tents are hydro (running off the same rez), that aspect would be neutralized
2 @ 4 x 4 tents with all those light tys... I just felt it move
Now, if the 2 tents are hydro (running off the same rez), that aspect would be neutralized
2 @ 4 x 4 tents with all those light tys... I just felt it move
I've seen you call A51 an "Apache Copy" more than once now, just a quick Google search yielded this:
A51 is in no way a copy of Apache. Matter of a fact, the SGS-160 is based off of an earlier A51 model from 2012, 120x3w with red and white LEDs, 225w at the plug, 11"x16" size panel.
A51's red and white spectrum is based off of A51's red, white and blue spectrum from earlier. There came a time that I wanted to add more white, and in turn would have had too much blue, so I took the blues out because the whites had more than enough blue in them.
A51 is no more of a copy of Apache than Apache is a copy of Blackstar. They're all different LED companies doing totally different things.
As far as A51 only good for small areas with low panel numbers, that is false. A51 will cover a 4x4 just as good as Apache, matter of a fact, I will say A51 will do a better job of it, and in the end, it will cost less to do. I'll break it down: 4x A51 rw150 @ 155w each = 620w compared to 1x Apache AT600 @ 660w. With the A51s, you have 4 points of light that can be adjusted independently from each other to accommodate different canopy heights. Also, during veg, you can run 1x A51 in 100w veg mode, whereas the Apache has only 2 modes, ON and OFF. It's 660w or nothing. You do not need 660w with a ton of it being red to veg. As far as cost to light up the 4x4 with either company, it will cost about the same.
I'll put my money where my mouth is, I am offering to fund an entire A51/Apache 2x 4x4 side by side. I'll pay for the 2 tents, I'll pay for the AT600, and I'll put up the A51 lights. Whoever does the side by side needs to be approved by both Apache and A51.
Eraserhead
Well-Known Member
It's not so much that I'm "calling you out", but rather disagreeing with something you said on a forum.
I am disagreeing with you on the fact you said A51 is a copy. I disagree with that. And also A51s regarding 4x4 coverage.
In order for A51 to be a copy, I would have had to sit down and say, "how should I go about copying the Apache?" "What do I need to do to copy this..."? I never did that.
It's not like that, I never plotted on how to copy Apache, never planned to copy them and their work.
A51 is more of a, competition to the Apache. 2 different things, serving the same purpose, just one cost less than the other. Both are equally American in my book. Apache uses Japanese and Taiwanese parts, but has some old people solder and assemble them in the USA. A51 gets parts from the USA and does assembly split between China and the USA. End parts will say which is better. Do you know of any datasheets that correspond with the LEDs that Apache uses? I have some parts numbers for A51's LEDs. Let's all of us put up the exact sheets that are used and compare which is more efficient, I'm sure one of the resident RIU DIY guys can crunch the numbers for you.
So, I'm not calling you out as an "Apache" owner. I'm just disagreeing with you, and in order to prove myself correct, I will fund the entire grow-off. Then I will prove you wrong, or right, and we'll all move on as a forum. I can take a loss, no biggie, but to accept the loss, I need definitive defeat, believe that.
I am disagreeing with you on the fact you said A51 is a copy. I disagree with that. And also A51s regarding 4x4 coverage.
In order for A51 to be a copy, I would have had to sit down and say, "how should I go about copying the Apache?" "What do I need to do to copy this..."? I never did that.
It's not like that, I never plotted on how to copy Apache, never planned to copy them and their work.
A51 is more of a, competition to the Apache. 2 different things, serving the same purpose, just one cost less than the other. Both are equally American in my book. Apache uses Japanese and Taiwanese parts, but has some old people solder and assemble them in the USA. A51 gets parts from the USA and does assembly split between China and the USA. End parts will say which is better. Do you know of any datasheets that correspond with the LEDs that Apache uses? I have some parts numbers for A51's LEDs. Let's all of us put up the exact sheets that are used and compare which is more efficient, I'm sure one of the resident RIU DIY guys can crunch the numbers for you.
So, I'm not calling you out as an "Apache" owner. I'm just disagreeing with you, and in order to prove myself correct, I will fund the entire grow-off. Then I will prove you wrong, or right, and we'll all move on as a forum. I can take a loss, no biggie, but to accept the loss, I need definitive defeat, believe that.