Removing fan leaves during flowering
- Thread starter raqqball6
- Start date
neo12345
Well-Known Member
Cool does that mean i go down in RUI history for inventing the word 'defolihater'????
Joe from what I have read in that study (which didn't once mention the word defoliation) it appears that leaves slow down photosynthesising and translocating when grown in the shade? So we would all agree that growing a conical shaped plant using top down lighting, where the lower branches aren't receiving enough usable light lower down the plant will produce branches of immature bud?
I'm not sure if it also mentioned that there is also a plateau, as in once the leaf is at 100% production it doesn't matter if you give it any more light. I will add a caveat to that as the environment can be manipulated by increasing co2 etc, but that is another conversation.
So if I followed your suggestion of buying a bigger light so swapping from 600w to 1000w I agree this would increase the amount of usable light lower down the plant, but it would also mean running an extra 400w per light for the duration of the grow. Though in my set up I would have to more than double the amount of lights I have, and also increase my electricity by the same amount.
By defoliating the plant you are just increasing the amount of usable light lower down the plant without the need for additional lighting, why do people find that so hard to understand?
You say that you haven't seen any credible reports or studies that defoliation increases yield in cannabis plants, but would you also agree that there are no reports or studies that show the opposite? So really you can't prove that it doesn't work but you seem prepared to argue to the death that it doesn't work, it's just seems a really strange position to argue from? Even going as far a stopping people from having a conversation about the technique, and personally attacking people that do want to talk about it.
You can snap her limbs so she is deformed, you can force feed her like foie gras, you can tie her down with a net so she can't grow upwards, you can pull her limbs off to make her grow two back, you can hack off all of her limbs, shave her lady parts and chop them off, stick them in a box for a few months and then set fire to them!! You so much as pull a leaf off though and you'll have the fascist Anti Defoliation League painting slogans on you house and leaving flaming bushes on your front lawn!!
Joe from what I have read in that study (which didn't once mention the word defoliation) it appears that leaves slow down photosynthesising and translocating when grown in the shade? So we would all agree that growing a conical shaped plant using top down lighting, where the lower branches aren't receiving enough usable light lower down the plant will produce branches of immature bud?
I'm not sure if it also mentioned that there is also a plateau, as in once the leaf is at 100% production it doesn't matter if you give it any more light. I will add a caveat to that as the environment can be manipulated by increasing co2 etc, but that is another conversation.
So if I followed your suggestion of buying a bigger light so swapping from 600w to 1000w I agree this would increase the amount of usable light lower down the plant, but it would also mean running an extra 400w per light for the duration of the grow. Though in my set up I would have to more than double the amount of lights I have, and also increase my electricity by the same amount.
By defoliating the plant you are just increasing the amount of usable light lower down the plant without the need for additional lighting, why do people find that so hard to understand?
You say that you haven't seen any credible reports or studies that defoliation increases yield in cannabis plants, but would you also agree that there are no reports or studies that show the opposite? So really you can't prove that it doesn't work but you seem prepared to argue to the death that it doesn't work, it's just seems a really strange position to argue from? Even going as far a stopping people from having a conversation about the technique, and personally attacking people that do want to talk about it.
You can snap her limbs so she is deformed, you can force feed her like foie gras, you can tie her down with a net so she can't grow upwards, you can pull her limbs off to make her grow two back, you can hack off all of her limbs, shave her lady parts and chop them off, stick them in a box for a few months and then set fire to them!! You so much as pull a leaf off though and you'll have the fascist Anti Defoliation League painting slogans on you house and leaving flaming bushes on your front lawn!!
joe macclennan
Well-Known Member
~sighs~ I would have been surprised if you had seen the relevance honestly neo.
and you are right. It didn't mention defoliation exactly . It DID show how net photosynthesis and translocation drops off exponentially farther away from the light source.
so one could reasonably infer that your idea of removing larger fan leaves from the top of the plant to illuminate fans lower on the plant would be detrimental to overall plant growth.
do you disagree?
and you are right. It didn't mention defoliation exactly . It DID show how net photosynthesis and translocation drops off exponentially farther away from the light source.
so one could reasonably infer that your idea of removing larger fan leaves from the top of the plant to illuminate fans lower on the plant would be detrimental to overall plant growth.
do you disagree?
chuck estevez
Well-Known Member
neo12345
Well-Known Member
I agree with first part of your statement and the study you posted, about how net photosynthesis and translocation drops off exponentially the farther away from the light source.
View attachment 3026698
These four fan leave we would both agree would be working at 100% as they are getting the very best of the light? So would you also agree that these fan leaves create some shade?
View attachment 3026700
I apologise in advance for the crude unscientific drawings, but you can see that one leaf casts a shadow.
When you add the shading of those four leaves together, it amounts to quite a lot of shading further down the plant.
The leaves in this section are growing in the shade of those 4 fan leaves, so they are probably not working at 100% like you said. However if you remove those 4 fan leaves then look at how many leaves you now have working at 100% in that section, because they are now not growing in the shade and are getting more light.
So yes I disagree with the second part of your statement, as I believe that it's better to have more usable light to that section where there are more leaves to benefit from the light.
If you use the solar panel analogy, then normal growing really equates to you having your solar panels in a pyramid shape on your roof. The one at the top will block out light to the next level and so on, but if you strip away those top few layers of panels then you will be creating more energy.
Is that such a crazy theory?
Attachments
chuck estevez
Well-Known Member
Damn neo, I'm convinced, Gonna go start pulling off anything that looks like a leaf. thanks man, it took a lot of work, But you hung in there with your stupid analogies, Only came back to answer when you weren't made to look stupid and had your own studies used against you. You wore me and my leaves down.
joe macclennan
Well-Known Member
dammit neo...your missing the ENTIRE POINT.
the leaves up top do MOST of the work, BECAUSE of the exponential decrease in photosynthesis and translocation the further away from the light, NOT because of shading, so the four leaves you are now illuminating MAY do the same amount...
ahhh ta hell with it. You will NEVER get it. Perhaps you should take some plant biology courses at the local community college. I dunno.
You need help though.
If you want to give a leaf that is only CAPABLE of doing less work more light...fine!
If it makes you happy taking all the good leaves off thats just wonderful I don't care what you do.
i'm done with you for now
the leaves up top do MOST of the work, BECAUSE of the exponential decrease in photosynthesis and translocation the further away from the light, NOT because of shading, so the four leaves you are now illuminating MAY do the same amount...
ahhh ta hell with it. You will NEVER get it. Perhaps you should take some plant biology courses at the local community college. I dunno.
You need help though.
If you want to give a leaf that is only CAPABLE of doing less work more light...fine!
If it makes you happy taking all the good leaves off thats just wonderful I don't care what you do.
i'm done with you for now
chuck estevez
Well-Known Member
Growan
Well-Known Member
Yeah. Done until the next 'shall I rape my plant' thread. You'll be back. You know you will...
Growan
Well-Known Member
neo, I do think that idea behind your arguement has merit. Ish. In a scrog, the canopy is so dense everything below it can be removed, it is fully shaded. However if you removed everything at screen height to let light get down there you'd have a massive net loss. I know that's a stupid extreme to what you are promoting. BUT if shade caused by leaves is something you really believe in, you should be promoting scrog, as it truely promotes getting as much light to as much of the plant as possible. Which is essentially what you're in favor of, no?
neo12345
Well-Known Member
I do promote scrog so to speak, the two techniques are not mutually exclusive. In fact they work extremely well together for a number of reasons.
Wavels
Well-Known Member
I experimented for awhile with defoliation.
I purchased a hydroponic grow system back in 1982, If I remember correctly it was General Hydroponics. In any event, I had been growing in dirt for awhile before I tried hydroponics.
Well, with the system I bought there were included instructions for growing, which said that it was a good thing to remove unnecessary leaves (sun leaves). This I did. (To some of my plants.) I removed leaves to varying degrees on different plants.
It did not take me very long to see that the plants I took leaves off of seemed to not be growing as fast, or with as much vigor as those which I left alone.
After a few crops, I decided that removing leaves was pure bunkum, and ever since, I have left every leaf on my plants until they started to yellow and cease producing vital energy for the plant. The only leaves I remove after that experience are those which are no longer capable of photosynthesis.
But, I certainly cannot prove anything, I only relate my experience, and that which I think works best for me.
I purchased a hydroponic grow system back in 1982, If I remember correctly it was General Hydroponics. In any event, I had been growing in dirt for awhile before I tried hydroponics.
Well, with the system I bought there were included instructions for growing, which said that it was a good thing to remove unnecessary leaves (sun leaves). This I did. (To some of my plants.) I removed leaves to varying degrees on different plants.
It did not take me very long to see that the plants I took leaves off of seemed to not be growing as fast, or with as much vigor as those which I left alone.
After a few crops, I decided that removing leaves was pure bunkum, and ever since, I have left every leaf on my plants until they started to yellow and cease producing vital energy for the plant. The only leaves I remove after that experience are those which are no longer capable of photosynthesis.
But, I certainly cannot prove anything, I only relate my experience, and that which I think works best for me.
chuck estevez
Well-Known Member
- You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Wavels again.
joe macclennan
Well-Known Member
shaded but not dark. Those leaves down low are still working @ varying degrees. If they are still green...leave em on.
Budsites otoh are an entirely diff. subject.
Smokenpassout
Well-Known Member
My method is to tuck leaves back without removing them. As the buds get bigger, I just tuck the leaves into the plants so that my budding areas get more light. I am of the opinion leaves are like solar cells, and you dont want to remove any, unless they fall of by themselves. Try tucking them away from the buds, sometimes they stay, sometimes they may spring back. When the plant ripens its gonna take all the goodness out of those saved leaves.
neo12345
Well-Known Member
Removing shading is only part of the defoliation technique, I just gave a basic example of how that part works. Some people will see the benefit in removing one leaf to provide light to another ten leaves, and some people will disagree.
People seem quite hung up on the fact that plants need leaves to flower.
People seem quite hung up on the fact that plants need leaves to flower.
joe macclennan
Well-Known Member
have you found any reputable data or studies that back up your theories yet neo?
Or are you just making assumptions again?
Or are you just making assumptions again?
chuck estevez
Well-Known Member
He keeps pulling you in Joe, You're talking to a wall. He will never listen.
joe macclennan
Well-Known Member
just trying to make him use his own brain. Instead of him making everyone else do his research for him. as seems to be the case.
and also calling him out when he starts giving this advice to newbs who don't know better.
and also calling him out when he starts giving this advice to newbs who don't know better.