DrOfWelshMagic
Well-Known Member
sorry guys, all is well I just haven't had the time to do shit what with the dam trip coming up this Friday, getting all in order for them while im away too, etc.
Belladonna from Paradise Seeds
- Thread starter DrOfWelshMagic
- Start date
DrOfWelshMagic
Well-Known Member
room 1 @ day 28 of 12/12. wasn't expecting them to be as advanced as they are but they're usually a bit larger than this too, reduced stretch down to training I would have thought
will update room 1 in a while and then not back from Amsterdam til Tuesday so next update after that will probably be about day 37/38, next wed/thu
will update room 1 in a while and then not back from Amsterdam til Tuesday so next update after that will probably be about day 37/38, next wed/thupsilocybindude
Well-Known Member
Looking great man!
~Dankster~420
Well-Known Member
Looking super good bro! Keep it up.. 
looks like there coming on strong! I like my Royal Queen I've had going now (cloning) for well over a yr now. She's a super fast flowering strain! And DANK as hell! Haha
looks like there coming on strong! I like my Royal Queen I've had going now (cloning) for well over a yr now. She's a super fast flowering strain! And DANK as hell! Haha
budolskie
Well-Known Member
dr welsh how many do u put in 1 1.2 and in what size pots, im think of scrapping the putting 3 in every couple weeks as its a bit much work and only got like 2 in a half dry of my first 3 but they were flipped at about 6"...... but as i have a veg and flower room im think about putting 6 or 9 plants in 11 or 18ltr pots every 8 weeks.. have them veggd up to about 2 foot before the go in?
psilocybindude
Well-Known Member
Where did you disappear to man?
420Barista
Well-Known Member
I wonder if he ever made it home from amsterdam?
Thundercat
Well-Known Member
The real question is how long was he going for?
DrOfWelshMagic
Well-Known Member
hi guys, im back from the dam and all is well just been slacking with the updates. room 1 in week 8 and room 2 on week 5. will post pics of both very soon.
DrOfWelshMagic
Well-Known Member
room 1 on day 28/29, starting to form nice colas if not a little thin, again, extreme temps aint helped and poss hindered them slightly if anything, I was expecting them to be a little larger than they are at this stage..... grrrrr..... still, they're coming on nicely. 
these are room 1 on day 48 and only a week away from chop, think the abnormal weather we been having burnt the shaders in middle row especially.... 
these are room 1 on day 48 and only a week away from chop, think the abnormal weather we been having burnt the shaders in middle row especially.... 
Thundercat
Well-Known Member
Really looking beautiful man!!
DrOfWelshMagic
Well-Known Member
thanks guys, im in the middle of reading an article about VPD, which I now think is the reason behind the not so healthy looking plants, but man, it takes some reading and its complicated too.... if anyone has an easy-to-understand version of how this shit works, pleeeeze share!!!!
DrOfWelshMagic
Well-Known Member
Vapor Pressure Deficit - VPD and Nutrient Deficiency
[HR][/HR]Beginning stages of VPD
More advanced VPD
I have gone into my grow room and been puzzled by a phenomena that I didn't understand. There would be water standing on a leaf that was under HID light and I was very bewildered why this was happening. I knew I had not allowed any water to spill on the plant, and I knew that my roof wasn't leaking, hell it wasn't even raining outside. So, where did this mystery water come from? Obviously the plant was transpiring water through the leaf and puddling on the top. But why? The answer is due to low vapor pressure deficit in my grow room.
If your interested in increasing your plants ability to grow in an enclosed environment, and you want to avoid diseases, and provide the best growing environment for your girls, then you need to be concerned about VPD.
So what is VPD?
Vapor pressure deficit, in ecology, is the difference between the actual water vapor pressure and the saturation of water vapor pressure at a particular temperature.
Unlike relative humidity, vapor pressure deficit has a simple nearly straight-line relationship to the rate of evapotranspiration and other measures of evaporation.
Plants lose moisture by transpiration from their leaves into the surrounding atmosphere.
The less moisture they lose, the more they like it.
We tend to think that the higher the relative humidity, the moister the air, the better it is for our plants, but that is only true up to a certain point.
What I am trying to show here is that relative humidity does NOT relate directly to the rate at which transpiration of water from the plant occurs.
Changes in relative humidity are not proportional to the rate of plant moisture loss.
How come?
The moisture holding capacity of air is measured in units of pressure, and there are two important measurements concerned with figuring out how much moisture a given block of air can potentially absorb.
First is the saturation vapor pressure (SVP): think of this as the maximum amount of water vapor a given block of air can hold.
Second measurement is the difference between the amount of water vapor actually in a given block of air and its SVP (i.e., the maximum amount of water it could absorb).
This difference is called the vapor pressure deficit, or VPD. Think of VPD as the water sucking power of the air, because it is actually the VPD that interests your plants, not the relative humidity.
At face value, VPD (sucking power) seems to be the same as relative humidity - because relative humidity is the ratio of the actual vapor pressure in the air to the SVP.
Its not the same, because the SVP of a given block of air increases exponentially as the air temperature rises - the higher the temperature, the greater the amount of water vapor that air can hold.
Rather than giving a physical explanation of why humidity and VPD are different measurements, because I'll get out of my depth in about two seconds, just look at how the VPD (sucking power) changes at various temperatures if the relative humidity stays the same at 75%:
Cpa represents how much water the atmosphere can absorb
VPD calculation is an improvement over relative humidity (RH) measurement alone because VPD takes into account the effect of temperature on the water holding capacity of the air, which roughly doubles with every 20°F increase in temperature.
Rather than giving a relative measure of the water content of the air, VPD gives an absolute measure of how much more water the air can hold, and how close it is to saturation.
For example, a typical 100' long x 30' wide x 10' high greenhouse with 80% relative humidity has about 14 lb of water in the air at 50°F, while 70°F air holds about 28 lb of water at the same RH.
This is reflected in the VPD values of 0.036 psi (0.25 kPa) and 0.072 psi (0.50 kPa), for the lower and higher temperature conditions, respectively (see Figure 2). Thus, VPD can be used to identify healthy air moisture conditions for plant production, while taking into account different temperature levels.
How does VPD compare to relative humidity?
Figure 1 shows how VPD relates to the customary thinking about humidity. Higher VPD means that the air has a higher capacity to hold water, stimulating water vapor transfer (transpiration) into the air in this low humidity condition. Lower VPD, on the other hand, means the air is at or near saturation, so the air cannot accept moisture from the leaf in this high humidity condition.
Figure 1. Vapor Pressure Deficit (VPD) enhances or inhibits the crop’s ability to transpire.
Therefore, vapor pressure deficit is a useful way to express the vapor flow in the system, both for condensation and transpiration.
Higher VPD increases the transpirational demand, influencing how much moisture from plant tissues is transferred into the greenhouse air. Consequently, VPD is being used to predict crop water needs in some commercial irrigation systems.
In contrast, very low VPD indicates closer proximity to the dew point, meaning harmful condensation can begin to develop.
Using the canopy temperature to determine VPD gives the best indication of condensation risk, showing particularly how close the canopy is to the dew point.
Looking at the temperature and vpd on a graph, you can see how the vpd is increasing exponentially as the temperature rises, while the relative humidity remains constant:
Here is another good article with a graph. VPD
VPD values run in the opposite way to RH values so when RH is high VPD is low.
If humidity is too low (i.e. high VPD), the stomata on the leaves tend to close in order to limit transpiration and prevent wilting. This closing of the stomata will also limit the rate of CO2 uptake and hence limit photosynthesis and consequently plant growth. Low humidity also reduces turgidity (water pressure within the plant cells) and this in turn also restricts growth. Blossom end rot in tomatoes and capsicum can also be attributed to low humidity (high VPD).
Conversely, if humidity is too high (i.e. low VPD) the stomata will fully open but even so the plants will be unable to evaporate enough water to carry minerals into the plant and so again, growth will be impeded and mineral deficiencies (particularly calcium) may occur. In addition, the plants may exhibit soft growth, fungal problems and mineral deficiency symptoms.
It is frequently stated that VPD more closely matches what the plant "feels" in relation to temperature and humidity and therefore forms a better basis for environment control. Unfortunately, VPD is extremely difficult to determine accurately as it is necessary to know the leaf tissue temperature. Attempts to measure leaf temperature reliably on an ongoing basis have often ended in disaster. One of the problems is that the plants leaves are in differing amounts of sun with some leaves in full sun, some in partial sun and others in full shade. This makes the concept of "leaf tissue temperature" particularly complex.
VPD can be used to identify disease-causing climate conditions. For example, several studies that explore disease pathogen survival at different climate levels reveal two critical values of VPD.
Studies show that fungal pathogens survive best below VPD (<0.43 kPa).
Furthermore, VPD is most damaging below (0.20 kPa).
Thus, the greenhouse climate should be kept above (0.20 kPa), to prevent disease and damage to crops.
How do we calculate VPD?
Well this is a problem. You need to know several temperature values and use a formula to calculate VPD. This is probably not something you are going to do everyday. There is a chart but I am not able to copy it into the post, so I will try to extrapolate it here.
I reached a couple of preliminary baseline conclusions.. assuming the target Kpa is
.9 and that leaf temp is 3ºC below air temp..
if the temperature is 85F, humidity should not be higher than 62%
if the temperature is 80F, humidity should not be higher than 58%
If the temperature is 75F, humidity should not be higher than 53%
If the temperature is 70F, humidity should not be higher than 47%
the rule of thumb seems to be a target temp of 80F should have just under 60% humidity.
An interesting observation is
that as temperature drops by 5 degrees F,
required humidity also drops by 5 %
so, 80F @ ~60%, or 70F @~50%, are good ballparks..
Here is a VPD calculator if you have all the temps to plug into it. VPD calc
Sometimes, when you think you have a nute deficiency, you are really just experiecning VPD which can mimick Mg deficiency.
Here are a couple of examples of what high VPD will do.
A different article:
Plants lose moisture by transpiration from their leaves into the surrounding atmosphere. The less moisture they lose, the more they like it. We tend to think that the higher the relative humidity, the moister the air and the better it is for plants up to a certain point. The point is that relative humidity does NOT relate directly to the rate at which transpiration of water from the plant occurs. Relative humidity is not proportional to the rate of moisture loss from the plant. How come?
The moisture holding capacity of air is measured in units of pressure, and there are two important measurements concerned with figuring out how much moisture a given block of air can potentially absorb. First is the saturation vapor pressure (SVP): think of this as the maximum amount of water vapor a given block of air can hold. Second measurement is the difference between the amount of water vapor actually in a given block of air and its SVP (i.e., the maximum amount of water it could absorb). This difference is called the vapor pressure deficit, or VPD. Think of VPD as the water sucking power of the air, because it is actually the VPD that interests your plants, not the relative humidity.
At face value, VPD (sucking power) seems to be the same as relative humidity - because relative humidity is the ratio of the actual vapor pressure in the air to the SVP. Its not the same, because the SVP of a given block of air increases exponentially as the air temperature rises - the higher the temperature, the greater the amount of water vapor that air can hold. Rather than giving a physical explanation of why humidity and VPD are different measurements, because I'll get out of my depth in about two seconds, just look at how the VPD (sucking power) changes at various temperatures if the relative humidity stays the same at 75%:
temperature humidity SVP vpd
10 75 1.23 0.31
11 75 1.32 0.34
12 75 1.40 0.35
13 75 1.50 0.37
14 75 1.60 0.40
15 75 1.70 0.43
16 75 1.82 0.45
17 75 1.94 0.48
18 75 2.06 0.52
19 75 2.20 0.55
20 75 2.34 0.58
21 75 2.49 0.62
22 75 2.64 0.66
23 75 2.81 0.70
24 75 2.98 0.75
25 75 3.17 0.79
26 75 3.36 0.84
27 75 3.57 0.89
28 75 3.78 0.94
29 75 4.01 1.00
30 75 4.24 1.06
31 75 4.49 1.12
32 75 4.76 1.19
33 75 5.03 1.26
34 75 5.32 1.33
35 75 5.63 1.41
36 75 5.95 1.49
37 75 6.28 1.57
38 75 6.63 1.66
39 75 7.00 1.75
40 75 7.39 1.85
Looking at the temperature and vpd on a graph, you can see how the vpd is increasing exponentially as the temperature rises, while the relative humidity remains constant:
The work that plants do
Consider your plant's average working day. They are really the world's primary producers of food, although they get bugger all credit for it. I mean, go into your average garden centre and what do you see? Rows and rows of little bottles and cartons of plant "food". These so-called foods are really just minerals the plant needs to help it in its food manufacturing efforts. Plants survive by manufacturing their energy requirements (stored as starch) from sunlight, carbon dioxide and water plus a number of mineral elements (N,P,K, Ca etc). This is done in a complex series of reactions, called the Calvin-Benson pathway, whereby carbon dioxide from the atmosphere is converted into carbohydrates for long-term energy storage. These Calvin-Benson reactions are light independent, and are driven by short-term energy in the form of ATP (Adenosine triphosphate) and NADPH (too long a name). ATP and NADPH are produced in the plant by light dependent activities originating from sunlight absorbed by the plant's chlorophyll.
In the majority of plants atmospheric carbon dioxide is captured through tiny pores in the epidermis (called stomata) that open during the daylight hours (called C3 respiration). Oxygen produced as a byproduct is expelled. If the outside air is dryer than the epidermal cells, which it usually is during sunlight hours, water vapor will diffuse out into the atmosphere through the open stomata. This moisture loss is a disadvantage for the plant, which usually has to take up compensatory water through its root system.
That's the "standard model" of plant behavior. Its not, in fact, how XTs normally operate. Moisture loss is a huge problem for XTs, because they do not have access to root-derived water. They have evolved with a different method of capturing atmospheric carbon dioxide. This enables them to minimize water loss by using a process called CAM respiration. Unlike the "standard model plant," during the day, the XTs' leaf pores, the stomata, close up; thereby avoiding moisture loss to a considerable degree. Through the night hours, when the temperature drops and the VPD decreases (hereby reducing the potential for water vapor loss from the plant), the air has much less sucking power and the CAM plant opens its stomata and captures carbon dioxide. As the carbon dioxide is captured it is converted to organic compounds - mainly malic acid - which are stored until daylight. Around dawn, the stomata close up again. During the day, stored malic acid is converted back to carbon dioxide within the plant tissues and the Calvin Benson cycle proceeds to fix carbon and the plant produces its energy stores. [3]
How VPD fits in
Remember the mechanics of vapor pressure deficit, VPD. It is a measure of the capacity, or potential, of air to take up more moisture. The higher the VPD the greater the potential for sucking moisture out of the plant. As we saw, when the temperature rises, air round your plant sucks moisture from open stomata faster and faster unless the relative humidity increases at a rate corresponding to the increasing temperature. On the other hand, as the temperature drops the moisture-holding capacity decreases exponentially. So a cool night equals a lowering of the VPD, much lower moisture loss for the XT while its stomata are open to receive carbon dioxide (remember that deserts generally have very cool nights. The only one I have spent the night in was the Makgadikigadi Pans in Botswana, and it was COLD.)
How does all this relate to growing conditions? I have a machine that records the temperature and humidity every 30 minutes, and then I store the records on a computer. This way I can calculate the VPD every half-hour of the day in my greenhouses, shade houses, seedling incubator, in the house with air conditioning on or off. Based on these recordings, let's discuss some of the VPD readings I've calculated. Please bear in mind that my recorder is a desktop weather station - it is not designed as a scientific instrument. The sensors are not aspirated, like they need to be for precise recordings. To get results that are scientifically acceptable, I would need to use an aspirated hygrometer or a sling psychrometer (a thing like a rattle, with wet and dry bulb thermometers, which you spin for several minutes every time you take a reading.) The figures I have are an indication only, and at best are useful for comparing environments. They are not a precise record of the actual VPD.
One of the places people have difficulty growing XTs is in the home. I think this is particularly true if you have an air-conditioned house. Look at what happens in our office. The room is about 150 m3 and the air-conditioner is a Fujitsu reverse cycle unit.
Without the air-conditioner, the VPD is running between 5 and 6 at night, climbing to about 10 during the day. Once we turn on the air-conditioner the VPD jumps up to between 20 and 25 while the thing is on. At that sort of range plants are going to start sucking up a lot of water to keep up, and I doubt that XTs will cope for long. This is a good indicator of why watering requirements for XTs are going to be much different in the two types of situation. I don't grow XTs indoors, but one of our Wellington Tillandsia Study Group members, Beryl McKellar, does[4]. We can assume that her conditions were very similar to my house without air-conditioning. She grows her plants indoors, as I said, and mists them every morning in summer, every 3 to 4 days in winter. But in the drier, high-deficit air of the air-conditioned room, you would surely have to soak the plants regularly to make up for the water loss they suffer.
What I don't know yet is what VPD figure is optimal for XTs at night. Well, I suppose a VPD of 0 is optimal! But there must be a particular temperature range conducive to their maintaining transport at an efficient level to permit transpiration, at which level they can tolerate a certain VPD. Work needs to be done! Meantime, compare our indoor figures with a couple of summer greenhouses.
The night-time VPD is still down at the 4 to 5 level, and I would say that this is probably around the maximum you would want to sustain for mature XTs. Let's use it as a starting figure, anyway. I have no idea how sensitive XTs are to VPD range at night, but my experience shows that young seedlings are very sensitive. To recap, I start XT seeds off, and grow them for up to nine months, in my incubator. This is a solid timber box; 1200mm long, 700mm high and 700mm deep. Two fluorescents are hung in the ceiling, immediately below them is a wire-netting screen from which the seeds are sown on hanging strips of fine plastic netting. In the bottom is a deep tray with wet sand in it covering a soil-warming cable. The front of the box was originally a solid wood panel that lifted up to allow access. This incubator was always very successful, and particularly I never lost any seedlings once they got started. However, about a year ago I replaced the solid front panel with a double thickness of plastic so my mother-in-law could get at the seeds to water while we were away. And since then, I have had a lot of problems including the loss of about 60 batches of seedlings last year. Previously, I only had to water the seedlings once or twice a day; now I have to water 4 times a day or I start losing them. Given that the light and temperature are pretty much the same in both cases, look at how the VPD differs:
In the solid incubator, the relative humidity stayed at 100% while the lights were off—in the plastic fronted version it only gets to 75%. Whilst 75% relative humidity sounds pretty good, look at the difference in VPD rates! In effect, then, seedlings thrive when the VPD ranges between 0 and 5 Cps, but are very difficult and require heavy watering when the VPD stays between 5 and 10 Cps.
Conclusion
It is far too early for me to try laying down firm guidelines for what sort of VPD ranges we should be looking for at night. There are many other factors of at least equal importance to get right, particularly temperature and light. Studying the VPD does not negate the standard advice that the higher the temperature, the higher you need the relative humidity. But it does start to show us how to quantify the actual relative humidity we should be looking to provide, especially at night. It helps us understand why the cool nights seem to be required, to get the VPD down and avoid excess moisture loss while the XTs are taking up carbon dioxide.
Measuring VPD can be a valuable tool to assist us in deciding how much to water our tillandsias. And it can also guide us to whether they are in need of more, or less, of the fresh moving stuff.
Calculating VPD
To calculate VPD you need to know four things: the current temperature, the current relative humidity, the SVP of air at the current temperature, and the cunning formula to work it out.
1. You provide the temperature and relative humidity figures.
2. Look up the SVP of air at that temperature (Celsius) by looking at the following table:
Temperature SVP
1 0.657421947513385
2 0.706315438214953
3 0.75839908974603
4 0.813850507765805
5 0.8728553593282
6 0.935607645775277
7 1.00230998096997
8 1.07317387484204
9 1.14842002221719
10 1.22827859689512
11 1.31298955093833
12 1.40280291912957
13 1.49797912855174
14 1.59878931324
15 1.70551563385225
16 1.81845160229991
17 1.93790241127728
18 2.06418526862391
19 2.19762973645066
20 2.33857807495646
21 2.48738559085903
22 2.64442099035948
23 2.81006673655684
24 2.9847194112255
25 3.16879008086477
26 3.3627046669269
27 3.56690432012621
28 3.78184579872918
29 4.00800185072203
30 4.24586159974958
31 4.49593093471598
32 4.75873290293534
33 5.03480810671739
34 5.32471510327082
35 5.62903080780417
36 5.94835089970204
37 6.28329023165168
38 6.63448324159299
39 7.00258436736282
40 7.38826846390217
3. Calculate the VPD. Subtract the relative humidity from 100, divide that figure by 100, and then multiply the result by the SVP. Answer is the VPD in Kilopascals.
Example: 75% RH at 30 C. From table, SVP = 4.245861599.
Subtract RH from 100, equals 25.
25 divided by 100, equals 0.25
.25 times 4.245861599, equals 1.0615 Kpa.
IMPORTANT: Vapor pressure deficit is usually measured in kilopascals, as shown in this example. However, for the purpose of my talk I used centipascals, i.e., the Kpa figure multiplied by 10. I did this so you could see the VPD readings on the graphs because I could only put one scale on with my stupid software….. or I was too stupid to figure out how to put two scales on the graphs. Whatever. I think it is easier to "visualize" numbers between 0 and 20, than it is with the much smaller variations if they were between 0 and 2. THIS WAS COPIED AND PASTED FROM ANOTHER SITE AND IS NOT MY OWN WRITING!!!!!
[HR][/HR]Beginning stages of VPD
More advanced VPD
I have gone into my grow room and been puzzled by a phenomena that I didn't understand. There would be water standing on a leaf that was under HID light and I was very bewildered why this was happening. I knew I had not allowed any water to spill on the plant, and I knew that my roof wasn't leaking, hell it wasn't even raining outside. So, where did this mystery water come from? Obviously the plant was transpiring water through the leaf and puddling on the top. But why? The answer is due to low vapor pressure deficit in my grow room.
If your interested in increasing your plants ability to grow in an enclosed environment, and you want to avoid diseases, and provide the best growing environment for your girls, then you need to be concerned about VPD.
So what is VPD?
Vapor pressure deficit, in ecology, is the difference between the actual water vapor pressure and the saturation of water vapor pressure at a particular temperature.
Unlike relative humidity, vapor pressure deficit has a simple nearly straight-line relationship to the rate of evapotranspiration and other measures of evaporation.
Plants lose moisture by transpiration from their leaves into the surrounding atmosphere.
The less moisture they lose, the more they like it.
We tend to think that the higher the relative humidity, the moister the air, the better it is for our plants, but that is only true up to a certain point.
What I am trying to show here is that relative humidity does NOT relate directly to the rate at which transpiration of water from the plant occurs.
Changes in relative humidity are not proportional to the rate of plant moisture loss.
How come?
The moisture holding capacity of air is measured in units of pressure, and there are two important measurements concerned with figuring out how much moisture a given block of air can potentially absorb.
First is the saturation vapor pressure (SVP): think of this as the maximum amount of water vapor a given block of air can hold.
Second measurement is the difference between the amount of water vapor actually in a given block of air and its SVP (i.e., the maximum amount of water it could absorb).
This difference is called the vapor pressure deficit, or VPD. Think of VPD as the water sucking power of the air, because it is actually the VPD that interests your plants, not the relative humidity.
At face value, VPD (sucking power) seems to be the same as relative humidity - because relative humidity is the ratio of the actual vapor pressure in the air to the SVP.
Its not the same, because the SVP of a given block of air increases exponentially as the air temperature rises - the higher the temperature, the greater the amount of water vapor that air can hold.
Rather than giving a physical explanation of why humidity and VPD are different measurements, because I'll get out of my depth in about two seconds, just look at how the VPD (sucking power) changes at various temperatures if the relative humidity stays the same at 75%:
Cpa represents how much water the atmosphere can absorb
VPD calculation is an improvement over relative humidity (RH) measurement alone because VPD takes into account the effect of temperature on the water holding capacity of the air, which roughly doubles with every 20°F increase in temperature.
Rather than giving a relative measure of the water content of the air, VPD gives an absolute measure of how much more water the air can hold, and how close it is to saturation.
For example, a typical 100' long x 30' wide x 10' high greenhouse with 80% relative humidity has about 14 lb of water in the air at 50°F, while 70°F air holds about 28 lb of water at the same RH.
This is reflected in the VPD values of 0.036 psi (0.25 kPa) and 0.072 psi (0.50 kPa), for the lower and higher temperature conditions, respectively (see Figure 2). Thus, VPD can be used to identify healthy air moisture conditions for plant production, while taking into account different temperature levels.
How does VPD compare to relative humidity?
Figure 1 shows how VPD relates to the customary thinking about humidity. Higher VPD means that the air has a higher capacity to hold water, stimulating water vapor transfer (transpiration) into the air in this low humidity condition. Lower VPD, on the other hand, means the air is at or near saturation, so the air cannot accept moisture from the leaf in this high humidity condition.
Figure 1. Vapor Pressure Deficit (VPD) enhances or inhibits the crop’s ability to transpire.
Therefore, vapor pressure deficit is a useful way to express the vapor flow in the system, both for condensation and transpiration.
Higher VPD increases the transpirational demand, influencing how much moisture from plant tissues is transferred into the greenhouse air. Consequently, VPD is being used to predict crop water needs in some commercial irrigation systems.
In contrast, very low VPD indicates closer proximity to the dew point, meaning harmful condensation can begin to develop.
Using the canopy temperature to determine VPD gives the best indication of condensation risk, showing particularly how close the canopy is to the dew point.
Looking at the temperature and vpd on a graph, you can see how the vpd is increasing exponentially as the temperature rises, while the relative humidity remains constant:
Here is another good article with a graph. VPD
VPD values run in the opposite way to RH values so when RH is high VPD is low.
If humidity is too low (i.e. high VPD), the stomata on the leaves tend to close in order to limit transpiration and prevent wilting. This closing of the stomata will also limit the rate of CO2 uptake and hence limit photosynthesis and consequently plant growth. Low humidity also reduces turgidity (water pressure within the plant cells) and this in turn also restricts growth. Blossom end rot in tomatoes and capsicum can also be attributed to low humidity (high VPD).
Conversely, if humidity is too high (i.e. low VPD) the stomata will fully open but even so the plants will be unable to evaporate enough water to carry minerals into the plant and so again, growth will be impeded and mineral deficiencies (particularly calcium) may occur. In addition, the plants may exhibit soft growth, fungal problems and mineral deficiency symptoms.
It is frequently stated that VPD more closely matches what the plant "feels" in relation to temperature and humidity and therefore forms a better basis for environment control. Unfortunately, VPD is extremely difficult to determine accurately as it is necessary to know the leaf tissue temperature. Attempts to measure leaf temperature reliably on an ongoing basis have often ended in disaster. One of the problems is that the plants leaves are in differing amounts of sun with some leaves in full sun, some in partial sun and others in full shade. This makes the concept of "leaf tissue temperature" particularly complex.
VPD can be used to identify disease-causing climate conditions. For example, several studies that explore disease pathogen survival at different climate levels reveal two critical values of VPD.
Studies show that fungal pathogens survive best below VPD (<0.43 kPa).
Furthermore, VPD is most damaging below (0.20 kPa).
Thus, the greenhouse climate should be kept above (0.20 kPa), to prevent disease and damage to crops.
How do we calculate VPD?
Well this is a problem. You need to know several temperature values and use a formula to calculate VPD. This is probably not something you are going to do everyday. There is a chart but I am not able to copy it into the post, so I will try to extrapolate it here.
I reached a couple of preliminary baseline conclusions.. assuming the target Kpa is
.9 and that leaf temp is 3ºC below air temp..
if the temperature is 85F, humidity should not be higher than 62%
if the temperature is 80F, humidity should not be higher than 58%
If the temperature is 75F, humidity should not be higher than 53%
If the temperature is 70F, humidity should not be higher than 47%
the rule of thumb seems to be a target temp of 80F should have just under 60% humidity.
An interesting observation is
that as temperature drops by 5 degrees F,
required humidity also drops by 5 %
so, 80F @ ~60%, or 70F @~50%, are good ballparks..
Here is a VPD calculator if you have all the temps to plug into it. VPD calc
Sometimes, when you think you have a nute deficiency, you are really just experiecning VPD which can mimick Mg deficiency.
Here are a couple of examples of what high VPD will do.
A different article:
Plants lose moisture by transpiration from their leaves into the surrounding atmosphere. The less moisture they lose, the more they like it. We tend to think that the higher the relative humidity, the moister the air and the better it is for plants up to a certain point. The point is that relative humidity does NOT relate directly to the rate at which transpiration of water from the plant occurs. Relative humidity is not proportional to the rate of moisture loss from the plant. How come?
The moisture holding capacity of air is measured in units of pressure, and there are two important measurements concerned with figuring out how much moisture a given block of air can potentially absorb. First is the saturation vapor pressure (SVP): think of this as the maximum amount of water vapor a given block of air can hold. Second measurement is the difference between the amount of water vapor actually in a given block of air and its SVP (i.e., the maximum amount of water it could absorb). This difference is called the vapor pressure deficit, or VPD. Think of VPD as the water sucking power of the air, because it is actually the VPD that interests your plants, not the relative humidity.
At face value, VPD (sucking power) seems to be the same as relative humidity - because relative humidity is the ratio of the actual vapor pressure in the air to the SVP. Its not the same, because the SVP of a given block of air increases exponentially as the air temperature rises - the higher the temperature, the greater the amount of water vapor that air can hold. Rather than giving a physical explanation of why humidity and VPD are different measurements, because I'll get out of my depth in about two seconds, just look at how the VPD (sucking power) changes at various temperatures if the relative humidity stays the same at 75%:
temperature humidity SVP vpd
10 75 1.23 0.31
11 75 1.32 0.34
12 75 1.40 0.35
13 75 1.50 0.37
14 75 1.60 0.40
15 75 1.70 0.43
16 75 1.82 0.45
17 75 1.94 0.48
18 75 2.06 0.52
19 75 2.20 0.55
20 75 2.34 0.58
21 75 2.49 0.62
22 75 2.64 0.66
23 75 2.81 0.70
24 75 2.98 0.75
25 75 3.17 0.79
26 75 3.36 0.84
27 75 3.57 0.89
28 75 3.78 0.94
29 75 4.01 1.00
30 75 4.24 1.06
31 75 4.49 1.12
32 75 4.76 1.19
33 75 5.03 1.26
34 75 5.32 1.33
35 75 5.63 1.41
36 75 5.95 1.49
37 75 6.28 1.57
38 75 6.63 1.66
39 75 7.00 1.75
40 75 7.39 1.85
Looking at the temperature and vpd on a graph, you can see how the vpd is increasing exponentially as the temperature rises, while the relative humidity remains constant:
The work that plants do
Consider your plant's average working day. They are really the world's primary producers of food, although they get bugger all credit for it. I mean, go into your average garden centre and what do you see? Rows and rows of little bottles and cartons of plant "food". These so-called foods are really just minerals the plant needs to help it in its food manufacturing efforts. Plants survive by manufacturing their energy requirements (stored as starch) from sunlight, carbon dioxide and water plus a number of mineral elements (N,P,K, Ca etc). This is done in a complex series of reactions, called the Calvin-Benson pathway, whereby carbon dioxide from the atmosphere is converted into carbohydrates for long-term energy storage. These Calvin-Benson reactions are light independent, and are driven by short-term energy in the form of ATP (Adenosine triphosphate) and NADPH (too long a name). ATP and NADPH are produced in the plant by light dependent activities originating from sunlight absorbed by the plant's chlorophyll.
In the majority of plants atmospheric carbon dioxide is captured through tiny pores in the epidermis (called stomata) that open during the daylight hours (called C3 respiration). Oxygen produced as a byproduct is expelled. If the outside air is dryer than the epidermal cells, which it usually is during sunlight hours, water vapor will diffuse out into the atmosphere through the open stomata. This moisture loss is a disadvantage for the plant, which usually has to take up compensatory water through its root system.
That's the "standard model" of plant behavior. Its not, in fact, how XTs normally operate. Moisture loss is a huge problem for XTs, because they do not have access to root-derived water. They have evolved with a different method of capturing atmospheric carbon dioxide. This enables them to minimize water loss by using a process called CAM respiration. Unlike the "standard model plant," during the day, the XTs' leaf pores, the stomata, close up; thereby avoiding moisture loss to a considerable degree. Through the night hours, when the temperature drops and the VPD decreases (hereby reducing the potential for water vapor loss from the plant), the air has much less sucking power and the CAM plant opens its stomata and captures carbon dioxide. As the carbon dioxide is captured it is converted to organic compounds - mainly malic acid - which are stored until daylight. Around dawn, the stomata close up again. During the day, stored malic acid is converted back to carbon dioxide within the plant tissues and the Calvin Benson cycle proceeds to fix carbon and the plant produces its energy stores. [3]
How VPD fits in
Remember the mechanics of vapor pressure deficit, VPD. It is a measure of the capacity, or potential, of air to take up more moisture. The higher the VPD the greater the potential for sucking moisture out of the plant. As we saw, when the temperature rises, air round your plant sucks moisture from open stomata faster and faster unless the relative humidity increases at a rate corresponding to the increasing temperature. On the other hand, as the temperature drops the moisture-holding capacity decreases exponentially. So a cool night equals a lowering of the VPD, much lower moisture loss for the XT while its stomata are open to receive carbon dioxide (remember that deserts generally have very cool nights. The only one I have spent the night in was the Makgadikigadi Pans in Botswana, and it was COLD.)
How does all this relate to growing conditions? I have a machine that records the temperature and humidity every 30 minutes, and then I store the records on a computer. This way I can calculate the VPD every half-hour of the day in my greenhouses, shade houses, seedling incubator, in the house with air conditioning on or off. Based on these recordings, let's discuss some of the VPD readings I've calculated. Please bear in mind that my recorder is a desktop weather station - it is not designed as a scientific instrument. The sensors are not aspirated, like they need to be for precise recordings. To get results that are scientifically acceptable, I would need to use an aspirated hygrometer or a sling psychrometer (a thing like a rattle, with wet and dry bulb thermometers, which you spin for several minutes every time you take a reading.) The figures I have are an indication only, and at best are useful for comparing environments. They are not a precise record of the actual VPD.
One of the places people have difficulty growing XTs is in the home. I think this is particularly true if you have an air-conditioned house. Look at what happens in our office. The room is about 150 m3 and the air-conditioner is a Fujitsu reverse cycle unit.
Without the air-conditioner, the VPD is running between 5 and 6 at night, climbing to about 10 during the day. Once we turn on the air-conditioner the VPD jumps up to between 20 and 25 while the thing is on. At that sort of range plants are going to start sucking up a lot of water to keep up, and I doubt that XTs will cope for long. This is a good indicator of why watering requirements for XTs are going to be much different in the two types of situation. I don't grow XTs indoors, but one of our Wellington Tillandsia Study Group members, Beryl McKellar, does[4]. We can assume that her conditions were very similar to my house without air-conditioning. She grows her plants indoors, as I said, and mists them every morning in summer, every 3 to 4 days in winter. But in the drier, high-deficit air of the air-conditioned room, you would surely have to soak the plants regularly to make up for the water loss they suffer.
What I don't know yet is what VPD figure is optimal for XTs at night. Well, I suppose a VPD of 0 is optimal! But there must be a particular temperature range conducive to their maintaining transport at an efficient level to permit transpiration, at which level they can tolerate a certain VPD. Work needs to be done! Meantime, compare our indoor figures with a couple of summer greenhouses.
The night-time VPD is still down at the 4 to 5 level, and I would say that this is probably around the maximum you would want to sustain for mature XTs. Let's use it as a starting figure, anyway. I have no idea how sensitive XTs are to VPD range at night, but my experience shows that young seedlings are very sensitive. To recap, I start XT seeds off, and grow them for up to nine months, in my incubator. This is a solid timber box; 1200mm long, 700mm high and 700mm deep. Two fluorescents are hung in the ceiling, immediately below them is a wire-netting screen from which the seeds are sown on hanging strips of fine plastic netting. In the bottom is a deep tray with wet sand in it covering a soil-warming cable. The front of the box was originally a solid wood panel that lifted up to allow access. This incubator was always very successful, and particularly I never lost any seedlings once they got started. However, about a year ago I replaced the solid front panel with a double thickness of plastic so my mother-in-law could get at the seeds to water while we were away. And since then, I have had a lot of problems including the loss of about 60 batches of seedlings last year. Previously, I only had to water the seedlings once or twice a day; now I have to water 4 times a day or I start losing them. Given that the light and temperature are pretty much the same in both cases, look at how the VPD differs:
In the solid incubator, the relative humidity stayed at 100% while the lights were off—in the plastic fronted version it only gets to 75%. Whilst 75% relative humidity sounds pretty good, look at the difference in VPD rates! In effect, then, seedlings thrive when the VPD ranges between 0 and 5 Cps, but are very difficult and require heavy watering when the VPD stays between 5 and 10 Cps.
Conclusion
It is far too early for me to try laying down firm guidelines for what sort of VPD ranges we should be looking for at night. There are many other factors of at least equal importance to get right, particularly temperature and light. Studying the VPD does not negate the standard advice that the higher the temperature, the higher you need the relative humidity. But it does start to show us how to quantify the actual relative humidity we should be looking to provide, especially at night. It helps us understand why the cool nights seem to be required, to get the VPD down and avoid excess moisture loss while the XTs are taking up carbon dioxide.
Measuring VPD can be a valuable tool to assist us in deciding how much to water our tillandsias. And it can also guide us to whether they are in need of more, or less, of the fresh moving stuff.
Calculating VPD
To calculate VPD you need to know four things: the current temperature, the current relative humidity, the SVP of air at the current temperature, and the cunning formula to work it out.
1. You provide the temperature and relative humidity figures.
2. Look up the SVP of air at that temperature (Celsius) by looking at the following table:
Temperature SVP
1 0.657421947513385
2 0.706315438214953
3 0.75839908974603
4 0.813850507765805
5 0.8728553593282
6 0.935607645775277
7 1.00230998096997
8 1.07317387484204
9 1.14842002221719
10 1.22827859689512
11 1.31298955093833
12 1.40280291912957
13 1.49797912855174
14 1.59878931324
15 1.70551563385225
16 1.81845160229991
17 1.93790241127728
18 2.06418526862391
19 2.19762973645066
20 2.33857807495646
21 2.48738559085903
22 2.64442099035948
23 2.81006673655684
24 2.9847194112255
25 3.16879008086477
26 3.3627046669269
27 3.56690432012621
28 3.78184579872918
29 4.00800185072203
30 4.24586159974958
31 4.49593093471598
32 4.75873290293534
33 5.03480810671739
34 5.32471510327082
35 5.62903080780417
36 5.94835089970204
37 6.28329023165168
38 6.63448324159299
39 7.00258436736282
40 7.38826846390217
3. Calculate the VPD. Subtract the relative humidity from 100, divide that figure by 100, and then multiply the result by the SVP. Answer is the VPD in Kilopascals.
Example: 75% RH at 30 C. From table, SVP = 4.245861599.
Subtract RH from 100, equals 25.
25 divided by 100, equals 0.25
.25 times 4.245861599, equals 1.0615 Kpa.
IMPORTANT: Vapor pressure deficit is usually measured in kilopascals, as shown in this example. However, for the purpose of my talk I used centipascals, i.e., the Kpa figure multiplied by 10. I did this so you could see the VPD readings on the graphs because I could only put one scale on with my stupid software….. or I was too stupid to figure out how to put two scales on the graphs. Whatever. I think it is easier to "visualize" numbers between 0 and 20, than it is with the much smaller variations if they were between 0 and 2. THIS WAS COPIED AND PASTED FROM ANOTHER SITE AND IS NOT MY OWN WRITING!!!!!
DrOfWelshMagic
Well-Known Member
im back, anyone still around??
DrOfWelshMagic
Well-Known Member
for those that are, heres whats going on now....
still Belladonna @ day 29 and day 50Attachments
~Dankster~420
Well-Known Member
Hell yeah! Looking good man..
Thundercat
Well-Known Member
Thats one super branched out plant!! Nice man.
~Dankster~420
Well-Known Member
The Belladonna I had had going almost a year ago did ok. She ended up getting to damn tall for indoors. Even though I tried like hell to train her. lol Still ended up over 6 ft tall. So she had to go outdoors and finished up her days in the Oct sun. Her toke had to much of an "earthy" taste for my liking. Some like that taste in strains though
Her toke had to much of an "earthy" taste for my liking. Some like that taste in strains though