Does this look like N deficiency to you?

hotdogski

Member
Just looking for second opinions, only one of the 3 plants in my hydro setup has been showing some pale green color and its only present in main leaves and not on the fan leaves.

I changed res and fed last week and my ppm is still at 1800. Started with base hardwater at around 300ppm
Ph 5.8
Using foxfarm schedule. Added h202 and epsom salts because one of the other plants was showing a bit of mag def.
Temps around 80
This is the journal

https://www.rollitup.org/t/hotdogs-first-dwc.820797/#post-10463838

Thanks
 

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rekoj0916

Well-Known Member
"Main leaves" by this you mean the new growth right?

Not unusual for new growth to be pale, happens to me when I feed light nute mix.
Your yellowing seems a bit odd though. A deficiency from nutelock out maybe? Is there any reason you feed such high ppms? Only time I get close to those #s is coco an still max at around 1100. Dwc I pretty much never even hit 1000ppm.
 

Alexander Supertramp

Well-Known Member
You sure your water at 300ppm is 5.8pH? Look like an actual case of high pH. Showing signs of being Zinc/and or Iron deficient. If so may even be Magnesium deficient. I would check the calibration of you're pH pen.
 

SnaFuu

Well-Known Member
I agree withsupertramp but I'll just mention I've seen this when I let my dwc nutes go too long. I change after a week now, used to go 2+ weeks.
 

hotdogski

Member
"Main leaves" by this you mean the new growth right?

Not unusual for new growth to be pale, happens to me when I feed light nute mix.
Your yellowing seems a bit odd though. A deficiency from nutelock out maybe? Is there any reason you feed such high ppms? Only time I get close to those #s is coco an still max at around 1100. Dwc I pretty much never even hit 1000ppm.
Yea new growth.
No reason really, I started out with half strength and since im starting off with around 300ppm im sitting around 1500, they arent showing any signs of nute burn so im just pumping as much as they are willing to take. Ohh and when i gave them epson it was a bit concentrated so that might have brought ppm up a lot too.

You sure your water at 300ppm is 5.8pH? Look like an actual case of high pH. Showing signs of being Zinc/and or Iron deficient. If so may even be Magnesium deficient. I would check the calibration of you're pH pen.
I think my pen is ok, i just checked with tap water, and it's at 7.5ish which is what it usually reads. Is it weird that the rest of the plants are fine?
After I added the nutes ph lowered to around 6, then I just used a bit of ph down to balance it.

I agree withsupertramp but I'll just mention I've seen this when I let my dwc nutes go too long. I change after a week now, used to go 2+ weeks.
So u change ur res every week?
I heard u could go without changing it the whole cycle, just feeding with lucas formula which is what i've been doing.
Does it go away after u change res?
 

SnaFuu

Well-Known Member
No way you could go a whole run unless your plant ate the specific elements in the nutes at the same rate. Wouldn't happen. Not for DWC at least. If one element like Ca doesn't get used as often it builds up. Then in my case I'd top off with tap water, adding even more Ca. At some point certain other elements stop being taken up by the roots, hence the Mg, Zn, Fe deficient leaves. I've seen this happen after as many as 5 weeks, and as little as 2. Just my experience.

This is the reason dwc isn't viable for a commercial sized grow.
 

rekoj0916

Well-Known Member
Yea new growth.
No reason really, I started out with half strength and since im starting off with around 300ppm im sitting around 1500, they arent showing any signs of nute burn so im just pumping as much as they are willing to take. Ohh and when i gave them epson it was a bit concentrated so that might have brought ppm up a lot too.



I think my pen is ok, i just checked with tap water, and it's at 7.5ish which is what it usually reads. Is it weird that the rest of the plants are fine?
After I added the nutes ph lowered to around 6, then I just used a bit of ph down to balance it.



So u change ur res every week?
I heard u could go without changing it the whole cycle, just feeding with lucas formula which is what i've been doing.
Does it go away after u change res?
I change mine every couple weeks, once the plants take off and are established I change every week. You don't have to, it just prevents a lot of issues that can result from poor res conditions. If your plants eat a bunch of "x" nute but very little of "y" nute then every time you add more nutes without changing the res you are giving your plant a lot more of "y" nute that it can use which will eventually lead to "y" nute toxicity or will just cause lockout of other nutrients because it is so improperly balanced.

Whenever you have have issues like this and aren't able to get assistance I would suggest first checking ph, if it seems to be in the clear then I would advise emptying out your res and refilling it with a clean nute solution. Within 24 hours you should be able to tell if that fixed or exacerbated the issue. More often than not it will completely fix everything.
 

Dr. Who

Well-Known Member
Hmm,,, lots of differing dump times....good overviews of the nutrient use by the plant in hydro.

Starting with water that's 300ppm out of the tap is BAD!!! 150 is the limit! I mean whats IN that 300ppm water?

In Recirculating/Ebb/ DWC hydro the easiest way I've ever come across is the 33% add back method. You can use any nutrient schedule.
You run it like this.
Make the required amount of 100% nutrient solution to fill the res to the required level.
Now as you have to add back to the res to keep it at running level. You add back a 33% nutrient solution ( make 1 gallon of 100% solution and add 2 gallons of straight water and you now have 33% solution.
Now you add this back until the TOTAL amount of the add back would equal the amount you needed to fill the res. DUMP res and refill with 100% solution and repeat the process.
I've had DWC's in 5 gallon pails with a 3 gallon fill level have to be dumped and refilled in as little as 6 days in bloom at the peak of growth.

I don't run but a few DWC's in the winter months any more and that's just for fun. I tend to stick to my Organic soil grows.
Anyway I still use the 33% rule when I do.
 

churchhaze

Well-Known Member
From what you said about 300ppm tap, and the looks of those leaves, I'd say you have calcium toxicity.

Ca++ antagonizes Mg++ and K+. You need to get calcium down, or somehow get potassium and magnesium up.
 

hotdogski

Member
http://forum.grasscity.com/photopost/data/500/19753Zinc-Manganese.jpg

Yea i was looking at this for reference.

I flushed res today, cleaned it with some chlorine and pumped fresh nutes, im gonna let them sit for a little while before readjusting ph.

Added some epson again to help in case its mag def.
Roots look healthy new growth is white.
Lifted the net to let them perk up a little and de-stress them a little bit ill bring it back down in a few days.

Should I spray the roots with some h202 just in case it could be salt buildup?

From what you said about 300ppm tap, and the looks of those leaves, I'd say you have calcium toxicity.

Ca++ antagonizes Mg++ and K+. You need to get calcium down, or somehow get potassium and magnesium up.
How could i bring Ca down?
Hmm,,, lots of differing dump times....good overviews of the nutrient use by the plant in hydro.

Starting with water that's 300ppm out of the tap is BAD!!! 150 is the limit! I mean whats IN that 300ppm water?

In Recirculating/Ebb/ DWC hydro the easiest way I've ever come across is the 33% add back method. You can use any nutrient schedule.
You run it like this.
Make the required amount of 100% nutrient solution to fill the res to the required level.
Now as you have to add back to the res to keep it at running level. You add back a 33% nutrient solution ( make 1 gallon of 100% solution and add 2 gallons of straight water and you now have 33% solution.
Now you add this back until the TOTAL amount of the add back would equal the amount you needed to fill the res. DUMP res and refill with 100% solution and repeat the process.
I've had DWC's in 5 gallon pails with a 3 gallon fill level have to be dumped and refilled in as little as 6 days in bloom at the peak of growth.

I don't run but a few DWC's in the winter months any more and that's just for fun. I tend to stick to my Organic soil grows.
Anyway I still use the 33% rule when I do.
Had been using this formula previously but your method sounds a lot simpler :) but this is more specific to hydro, the purpose is to let water sit in the res through all veg cycle allowing you to save on nutes, since you waste a lot while flushing, and you just flush once to change nutes for flower.
In my case however it seems that this method isnt viable, since im using very hard water.

So mineral buildup is expected.

http://www.asklucas.com/LucasFormula.html

I change mine every couple weeks, once the plants take off and are established I change every week. You don't have to, it just prevents a lot of issues that can result from poor res conditions. If your plants eat a bunch of "x" nute but very little of "y" nute then every time you add more nutes without changing the res you are giving your plant a lot more of "y" nute that it can use which will eventually lead to "y" nute toxicity or will just cause lockout of other nutrients because it is so improperly balanced.

Whenever you have have issues like this and aren't able to get assistance I would suggest first checking ph, if it seems to be in the clear then I would advise emptying out your res and refilling it with a clean nute solution. Within 24 hours you should be able to tell if that fixed or exacerbated the issue. More often than not it will completely fix everything.
Yea this makes sense, not sure how people make it work but i heard this formula works good, but in theory what ur saying seems right. Would depend on what the plant feels like eating at diff cycles.
 

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Zomgshaman

Active Member
Problems don't go away instantly, just keep ontop of em and wait a week to see if they worsen or better.
 

Dr. Who

Well-Known Member
Ok a few words on plant recovery and what to look for.

First off in hydro it takes 3-5 days from a "correction" to see any change.
ONLY N def will show leaves returning from "damage" back to green and healthy.
ANY other "correction" will show only in the new growth.

And to address the problem again.

Any time you allow the res to remain unchanged for as long as a whole veg or flower period you take the chance of various nutrient imbalance's. If you are using simply a "base" nutrient system you WILL begin to get micro nutrient problems. Micro nutrient problems will lead to macro nutrient problems as they help regulate the "use" of the macro's (for example; as Church said in the relationship between Ca and K and Mg).
The longer any system sits with out a change is bad simply because the plant puts things BACK into the res as it grows. This is why if you PPM on day one and get reading X. Then PPM again on day 10, that reading has now INCREASED to reading Z. This build up tends to get toxic to the plant in time.
The Lucas formula works,,,,,,,,But it makes me very uncomfortable as your problem highlights exactly the problems that can arise from no changing of the res coupled with a non adaptive add back situation. NOT to mention your bad water at 300ppm. Remember when I said, "You don't know whats IN that 300ppm water." THAT with the Lucas and the way it's done, I feel is the root problem. Your getting a lock, due to whats in the water coupled with a build up of plant "put back" in the res.
Again, remember what Church said about the Ca. I agree 100% with him. Your problem IS to much Ca in that water (maybe some extra iron too) and that's the major factor to the problem as a whole. You can not raise the Mg and K levels to meet the demands of the plant with the amount of Ca blocking them....You MUST reduce the Ca. To do that you must change the source of your water!

USE CLEAN WATER!
Run the 33% method.
You will see a big change in your quality and in the ease of the grow.

Good Luck!
 
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cheeba soulja

Well-Known Member
I didn't read every comment but 1800 ppm is waaaaaaay too high man.i started with dwc then moved to rdwc for ease of use.but either way you need high oxygen levels.try using a commercial type air pump not a fish tank pump.use a root zone conditioner like DM gold zone.with high oxygen levels nute uptake is easy for the plants I never go over 800ppm the whole grow.i think your killing your plants with over nutes then your adding salts into your solution that is double ppm what it should be.then your tap water is already hard or some issue going on to be so high ppm to begin with..water temp is key too.anything over 70 and you play with fire.once you fry your plants in dwc it's hard for them to recover if they recover at all.now your weak plants are prone to other issues.
Take my tips on your next grow in dwc and watch the results
 
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