Is this just from low pH? (coco) (pics)

[Uncle Ben]

Don't ever try and tell me that myccorhiza does not work. That is is the biggest discouraging falsity you could convey, and you could very well steer an up and coming grower away from a highly beneficial component to our gardens.

I'll try not to interfere with your religious feelings and confuse you with the facts.

 

[Uncle Ben]

Use Extreme Gardening Brand of Mykos. I've never used great white, nor will I ever, I have no need, Extreme Gardening Mykos works immensely.

Now wait a minute. You're telling me you have the equipment and technical know how to confirm that what you just bought is as described? You don't know if there is ANY viable fungi in that bag of tricks from Myco Extreme, much less how much and what state of dormancy it's in. The microbes have to come out of dormancy and maybe by then you've flowered. Also, there is a shelf life on those products. If I was a bettin' man, I'd bet that any value that comes out of such products is the amendments often included with them, like blood meal and humic acids.

Bottom line, buying into the organic line, the green religious movement, is iffy and is based on targeted people like you who have this certain psychological makeup, believing in all this comic energy shit and such, and you are targeted by these organic shsyters as a good sucker bet.

There's been reports, actual tests, of some of these organic supplements, amendments, having nasty stuff like heavy metals, arsenic. You just don't know what you're getting unlike buying a pure chemical product like Dyna-Gro which has the added benefit of being complete regarding plant performance and an excellent value.

UB

 

[TexasHank]

Do you have an educated guess why it is that mykos products do not work in container gardening?

I wonder.. great info though, UB. Thanks for taking the time..

 

[Uncle Ben]

Nope, am trying to find out though.

 

[tightpockt]

I love how everything on this forum turns into an argument. It's ridiculous, I'm glad I have a good sense of humor and laugh at all of it...
Anyway, to the OP...
Raise your PH. a little, add some more N and you'll be good to go.
Measuring run-off is pretty much useless IMO.
cns-17 kinda blows ( just my opinion again). I mean, it'll work but I don't like how long it takes to dissolve and I'm not thrilled with the nutrient profile either.

 

[hydrolyzed]

I appreciate all the replies.....even though this thread is turning into a debate about mycos in potted plants and organic growing .

UB, I fully understand the issue with mycos in short term potted plants. I researched and found the same and similar studies you reference, showing that the high P we use, along with the short time in the medium, doesn't let the mycos colonize enough of the medium at a sufficient density to allow the proper fungi-root symbiosis. I am using Great White strictly for the beneficial bacteria to keep any bad bacteria at bay. Maybe the mycos are helping, maybe they aren't, but I'm not claiming the myco part of GW is doing a thing for me, and I understood the science behind it before I even started using it, just so that's clear.

I emailed Botanicare to ask them about the missing micros....I think you have a good point, but at the same time, I have had 2 excellent runs with CNS, and one of my three tents with the same pheno of this strain and same nutrients is doing fine. It is just this newer tent, and some of the third tent that is showing this issue. I'm racking my brain trying to think if I changed anything in the last run, and I can't think of anything. I'm still on the same 2.5g jugs of CNS, which I agitate very well with a paint mixer before dispersing into smaller bottles for daily mixing, same gallon jug of Pro-Tekt....same bottle of Drip Clean, and same bottle of Floralicious Plus, also same quart of pH down. The tents have the same bulbs in them from the last run, same ventilation, around the same temperature, maybe 5-10F hotter during the day. The fact that I had good results, and others I see when googling "CNS17 coco" have good results with it, makes me question the vector of a bad nutrient regimen being the sole culprit of this problem.

I flushed the plants a third time with 6.4, 1.0 EC solution, and again got 5.5-5.6 runoff, slurry test 5.5-5.6...so the pH is still very low. I'm trying to learn more about the CEC of coco and trying to figure out how effects the pH the way I'm seeing it. A noob theory I have so far is that maybe the coco is "picking" out all the higher pH stuff from my flush solution like P and K, and leaving behind/giving up N, which is very low pH.....giving me the low pH runoff numbers. This wouldn't explain why the slurry test is also low though. Trying to learn as fast as possible here, the plants are still yellowing, just less quickly, which is good I think.

TexasHank, I did read it somewhere, it was an article someone posted somewhere, I will try and find it and link it....as I'm trying to learn more about it myself at this point since it's obviously affecting my plants.

I'm flushing again at 6.5pH and hoping for better numbers.

 

[tightpockt]

dude, you're going to drive yourself crazy with all the run off tests, flushes etc..
feed at a mild to moderate solution at 6.0 +/- .2 and let the plant take care of itself.
plants don't respond well to rapidly changing PH and EC levels.
I'm not criticizing, I'm just trying to get your plan a little greener the simple way.
Bump up the N, maybe try foliar feeding and hope for the best.
Also, just out of curiosity, are you re using ur Coco?

 

[hydrolyzed]

Thanks, I was curious about changing the pH from 5.4 to 6.0 too quick, but unfortunately for me looks like I couldn't do that if I tried! I usually tend to be calm about stuff but I just feel like every minute my plants sit in <5.5pH it's starving them. There really isn't much else to do than what you said, which is what I'm doing..just a little higher pH.

I do NOT reuse my coco...I've read way to many stories of messed up EC/pH with reusing it, and also rot issues from left over root bits. It seemed for every 3 people that said they love reusing it, there was 2 more that said it only caused problems. I only spend around $40 per cycle for new coco anyways, so it's worth it to me.

 

[TexasHank]

I appreciate all the replies.....even though this thread is turning into a debate about mycos in potted plants and organic growing .

UB, I fully understand the issue with mycos in short term potted plants. I researched and found the same and similar studies you reference, showing that the high P we use, along with the short time in the medium, doesn't let the mycos colonize enough of the medium at a sufficient density to allow the proper fungi-root symbiosis. I am using Great White strictly for the beneficial bacteria to keep any bad bacteria at bay. Maybe the mycos are helping, maybe they aren't, but I'm not claiming the myco part of GW is doing a thing for me, and I understood the science behind it before I even started using it, just so that's clear.

I emailed Botanicare to ask them about the missing micros....I think you have a good point, but at the same time, I have had 2 excellent runs with CNS, and one of my three tents with the same pheno of this strain and same nutrients is doing fine. It is just this newer tent, and some of the third tent that is showing this issue. I'm racking my brain trying to think if I changed anything in the last run, and I can't think of anything. I'm still on the same 2.5g jugs of CNS, which I agitate very well with a paint mixer before dispersing into smaller bottles for daily mixing, same gallon jug of Pro-Tekt....same bottle of Drip Clean, and same bottle of Floralicious Plus, also same quart of pH down. The tents have the same bulbs in them from the last run, same ventilation, around the same temperature, maybe 5-10F hotter during the day. The fact that I had good results, and others I see when googling "CNS17 coco" have good results with it, makes me question the vector of a bad nutrient regimen being the sole culprit of this problem.

I flushed the plants a third time with 6.4, 1.0 EC solution, and again got 5.5-5.6 runoff, slurry test 5.5-5.6...so the pH is still very low. I'm trying to learn more about the CEC of coco and trying to figure out how effects the pH the way I'm seeing it. A noob theory I have so far is that maybe the coco is "picking" out all the higher pH stuff from my flush solution like P and K, and leaving behind/giving up N, which is very low pH.....giving me the low pH runoff numbers. This wouldn't explain why the slurry test is also low though. Trying to learn as fast as possible here, the plants are still yellowing, just less quickly, which is good I think.

TexasHank, I did read it somewhere, it was an article someone posted somewhere, I will try and find it and link it....as I'm trying to learn more about it myself at this point since it's obviously affecting my plants.

I'm flushing again at 6.5pH and hoping for better numbers.

I have DEFINITELY noticed how stubborn coco can be about ph.. i did not know about it setting itself though.. I would believe it though and would love to hear more.. yeah, if you ever come across it again and remember, post a link..

Really though.. I think the info that will help you with this problem has already been posted.. Questions answered, or whatever... Not sure if they are what you wanted but i think there is a bit of good info here. On and Off topic.

I think that top dressing with garden lime is your best bet if you DO decide to continue with adjusting the ph. Top Dress/water in..
I just read that to get your media to balance out to 7 you add 1tsp lime per 1 gal of soil mix.. if your mix has lots of peat or nutes in it (acidic) then you would maybe need a little more lime.
Since you want it just a little bit higher (not 7) you might want to start smaller..
This is just a rule of thumb to give you a base to work from.
If you were to try the lime top dressing you would need to do a little research and educated guessing as to the specifics/applications.
I have not done this before in a container or with coco. I have mixed in peat to lower the ph in coco though. Still doing that actually. I also have had salt buildup that brought the ph way down.. it was easily fixed with some soil drenches of tap water at 6.5,

For "flushing" the media.. I water lightly with plain water, no runoff (at least minimal) wait 2 or 3 hrs, then water with lots of runoff. the ph climbs.. repeat until you feel the job is done.

With especially bad cases of salt build up you might need to flush many times over several days. Many medias would not do well with this kind of watering, but coco stays aerated very well.. it's like a flood and drain in rocks.. watering actually does great things for air exchange as opposed to soil which gets soggy and forces the air out..

 

[TexasHank]

OP,

Are you adding Pro-Tekt to the res BEFORE any other nutrients?
Like, do you put in the pro-tekt, let it mix, THEN add the other nutes?

I am told that adding Pro Tekt AFTER adding other nutes will make some nutrients unavailable to your plants.. If that happened, they could build up in the media, possibly throwing off your ph..

Just a guess.. for all I know you already knew this little bit about Pro-Tekt

 

[TexasHank]

I emailed Botanicare to ask them about the missing micros....I think you have a good point, but at the same time, I have had 2 excellent runs with CNS, and one of my three tents with the same pheno of this strain and same nutrients is doing fine. It is just this newer tent, and some of the third tent that is showing this issue. I'm racking my brain trying to think if I changed anything in the last run, and I can't think of anything. I'm still on the same 2.5g jugs of CNS, which I agitate very well with a paint mixer before dispersing into smaller bottles for daily mixing, same gallon jug of Pro-Tekt....same bottle of Drip Clean, and same bottle of Floralicious Plus, also same quart of pH down. The tents have the same bulbs in them from the last run, same ventilation, around the same temperature, maybe 5-10F hotter during the day. The fact that I had good results, and others I see when googling "CNS17 coco" have good results with it, makes me question the vector of a bad nutrient regimen being the sole culprit of this problem.

Again, highly unlikely, but, covering everything here..

You spoke of your "newer" tent.. was it used?

I remember a while back there were materials that were being used in tents that were actually harming plants. This was a while back when tents were still fresh off the newschool mj line.. If I remember right, it was the framing material reacting to heat/hid lighting..

was this some bargain ebay tent/. Used Clist tent?

Just some other thoughts/possibilities..

 

[keysareme]

I'll try not to interfere with your religious feelings and confuse you with the facts.

I base my life on actual proof, not some said fact bro.

I'll stay with my huge root masses, mykos powder has been working for me. Possibly it's because I am so spiritual and connected to the universe.

And that's ok that you still feel the need to bring any sort of mention of religion into a discussion on cultivation of plant life.

I've done my best to keep my input in this thread plant specific and related to cultivation.

 

[TexasHank]

I base my life on actual proof, not some said fact bro.

I'll stay with my huge root masses, mykos powder has been working for me. Possibly it's because I am so spiritual and connected to the universe.

And that's ok that you still feel the need to bring any sort of mention of religion into a discussion on cultivation of plant life.

I've done my best to keep my input in this thread plant specific and related to cultivation.

i hope to see your side by side in the future.

Most of us don't have the equipment, time, knowledge, etc to really put together something on the level of "proof".. but.. with a good number of plants and extra attention to really leveling the playing field for all plants.. you can get a good idea of what a technique/product/whatever can offer you.

 

[StChristopher]

WOW......this should be REAL simple to fix.

I just went thru the same thing.......I was clueless thought it was Iron def WRONG

To much Great White will mess with your ph

Treatment-----Flush with GH Flora Sheild......WHAT you say????? Knock back your mycro heard, you should only have to inoculate once maybe twice. Your PH is off locking out Mg <------that is what your seeing. The 1st,2nd and 3rd pic you posted are clear signs of a Mg def.

Look I use the same thing

coco
csn17(bloom)-----but I only use 5ml/gal
silica---3ml/gal
Flora+---1ml/gal
Epson Salt 1g/gal
I use this start to finish I do add Hydroplex weeks 3-6 Flowering

PH at 6
Heres a few pic (veg) CSN 17 Bloom I do NOT use csn17 Grow their is no need, Bloom has every thing you need, tho maybe a little light on Mg so Epson when needed

and some in flower

Hope this helps

 

[TexasHank]

WOW......this should be REAL simple to fix.

I just went thru the same thing.......I was clueless thought it was Iron def WRONG

To much Great White will mess with your ph

Treatment-----Flush with GH Flora Sheild......WHAT you say????? Knock back your mycro heard, you should only have to inoculate once maybe twice. Your PH is off locking out Mg <------that is what your seeing. The 1st,2nd and 3rd pic you posted are clear signs of a Mg def.

Look I use the same thing

coco
csn17(bloom)-----but I only use 5ml/gal
silica---3ml/gal
Flora+---1ml/gal
Epson Salt 1g/gal
I use this start to finish I do add Hydroplex weeks 3-6 Flowering

PH at 6
Heres a few pic (veg) CSN 17 Bloom I do NOT use csn17 Grow their is no need, Bloom has every thing you need, tho maybe a little light on Mg so Epson when needed

and some in flower

Hope this helps

Nice looking plants..

Interesting stuff.. what is it that causes GW to throw off the ph? Is the powder ultra acidic? Or is it the powder reacting with something? itself?

I guess what I am wondering is how did you come to the conclusion that GWhite was causing your ph to swing way low causing Mag def?

I don't know though.. that doesn't look like Mag deficiency to me..

I have a jar of Plant Success Powder and a couple extra clones I was about to throw out.. I think I will test your claim..
How much powder is "too much"?

I do hope you come back and continue to discuss this.

 

[Uncle Ben]

I emailed Botanicare to ask them about the missing micros....I think you have a good point, but at the same time, I have had 2 excellent runs with CNS, and one of my three tents with the same pheno of this strain and same nutrients is doing fine.

I'm just expressing what I see. I think you're on your own on this one. Hope you and Botanicare get it figured out. To me they are just another company selling snake oil in fancy packaging with outrageous claims, marketing buzzwords and prices.

Plant Success Great White - Mycorrhizal Beneficial Bacteria

Great White is the most complete mycorrhizal product on the market. The cutting edge formula contains 15 different species of mycorrhizal fungi, 11 different species of beneficial bacteria and 2 species of trichoderma all in one product. Research shows that this powerful formula will ignite plant and root growth giving plants the tools they need to maximize yields. Great White's concentrated formula ensures optimum colonization of root systems by the fungi for less money. The water soluble powder makes application a snap and delivers the spores directly to the roots for immediate germination. Users should look for explosive root growth, increased yields, increased fruiting and flowering, increased nutrient and water absorption and improved transplant success. The key to healthy and vital plants starts with a vigorous root system and a vigorous root system starts with Great White!

dime a dozen.....

Good luck,
UB

 

[Uncle Ben]

WOW......this should be REAL simple to fix.

I just went thru the same thing.......I was clueless thought it was Iron def WRONG

To much Great White will mess with your ph

Huh?

Classic look of a plant with a N and micros deficiency.

 

[bird mcbride]

IMO the easiest way around all this is staight tap water to garantee the plant(s) get their micros. In coco use liquid NPK and liquid ph conditioners. If you are using an NPK that doesn't have hydro instructions go 1/6 of what is recommended for soil outside. Be sure the solution is well mixed and airated. When you water be sure to water each plantpot until you see run off. Be sure water cannot stagnate around the base of the plantpot(s).
Before the wigs came in with 5.8ph I ran my hydro at 6ph. It grew just the same

 

[StChristopher]

Nice looking plants..

Interesting stuff.. what is it that causes GW to throw off the ph? Is the powder ultra acidic? Or is it the powder reacting with something? itself?

I guess what I am wondering is how did you come to the conclusion that GWhite was causing your ph to swing way low causing Mag def?

I don't know though.. that doesn't look like Mag deficiency to me..

I have a jar of Plant Success Powder and a couple extra clones I was about to throw out.. I think I will test your claim..
How much powder is "too much"?

I do hope you come back and continue to discuss this.

I don't have your answers, or should say scientific proof. I came across a few threads that discussed a large mycro heard scewing ph. My ph in coco always stays between 5.6-6.2, then I started using GW ( I only used once a week).After 3 weeks my ph started to drop. It stopped around 4.9-5.1, it seemed no matter how much ph water I ran thur it still ph to low 5.

I hope you do understand They only have to list the NPK they dont have to list every last thing in their nutes. CSN17 has EVERY thing. Tho Mg is a little weak (for coco) and silica is also or should be supplemented.

As uncle Ben stated above, my issue came from the lock out from my ph being so low causing a whole bunch of def.

Also CSN17 has carbs to feed you mycros but I also sup Strapped <---- mycros will explod after use.

Bottom line get your PH corrected and you should be good, for me it was just knocking down my mycro heard. To much of a good thing is to much.

Great White @ 1tsp/10 gal (every other day) this is over kill

 

[Uncle Ben]

As uncle Ben stated above, my issue came from the lock out from my ph being so low causing a whole bunch of def.

I said that if folks don't have a clue they will always blame their troubles on pH. Blind leading the blind kinda thing.....