How much should I trim before flower?

nova1992

Well-Known Member
I agree with st0w. If you are going to keep them all you might wanna remove some leaves for circulation, it wont increase yield but you have quite a few plants so i dont think it will matter much. Fans are great, you might wanna take off a few smaller lower branches and leaves so you can have good air flow under the canopy as well as on top :)
This is the only time i remove anything now unless its dead, but then it just goes on top of the soil to get eaten by my microbes.

Keep asking these awesome guys questions if you're unsure. They're great and know a lot of info about marijuana! And read, read, read! Read "teaming with microbes" for sure, it will teach you a lot.

Good luck!
 

scarecrow77

Well-Known Member
I can't wrap my head around how you had less of a yield by removing shade leaves? As all you would be doing is focussing more energy into the flowers and roots rather then sustaining bigger leaves? Topping works so well because you get multiple heads but it also spreads the plant letting precious light into the lower leaves can't understand how removing 10/15 bigger leaves to allow light acsess to 40-50 lower leaves can effect your yield negatively? I have always had much greater sucsess by prunning
bare in mind..if your going pulling off healthy green fan leafs your not only fuckin with your yeild ...you will also have to feed your girls less because they will have less leafs to store the nutes ..if you are pulling them..start with low ppm in flowering ...with a lot of leafs gone you could easy be overfeeding....just my thought from experience...scarecrow77
 

haight

Well-Known Member
Thanks for the advise, it's pretty much on track with what I was thinking. I've been in the mindset of letting them do what they do and don't do any messing around with them.
It has worked for me for many a year... I do top them at about three or four weeks so they'll branch and I'll have a new clone. I also yank yellow leaves off if they show up. But prune for the sake of getting more light to the lower branches... nahhh.
 

cann.i.bliss

Well-Known Member
bare in mind..if your going pulling off healthy green fan leafs your not only fuckin with your yeild ...you will also have to feed your girls less because they will have less leafs to store the nutes ..if you are pulling them..start with low ppm in flowering ...with a lot of leafs gone you could easy be overfeeding....just my thought from experience...scarecrow77
Leaves don't store nutrients? The plant uses light collected by the leaves to convert nutrients taken up by the roots into sugers to nourish the plant and I don't particularly want to go down the road of to trim shade leaves or not because a lot of people do and a lot don't everyone has there own opinions on it for me its always worked a lot better for lower flower growth I get juicey crowns down low most people just get popcorn buds
 

nova1992

Well-Known Member
Leaves don't store nutrients? The plant uses light collected by the leaves to convert nutrients taken up by the roots into sugers to nourish the plant and I don't particularly want to go down the road of to trim shade leaves or not because a lot of people do and a lot don't everyone has there own opinions on it for me its always worked a lot better for lower flower growth I get juicey crowns down low most people just get popcorn buds
What kind of lights are you using?
 

st0wandgrow

Well-Known Member
I use both mh, hps and l.e.d also if youse would like to educated your selfs further on getting higher yields by trimming check this link and have a read from 3 decade growers

http://www.420magazine.com/forums/hydroponic-gardening/176415-increasing-yield-defoliation-indoors-what-s-mean-how-do.html
Bud sites don't require direct exposure to light to fruit. The flowers are sinks, meaning they don't have enough surface area to produce the energy required through photosynthesis to develop. Instead, they need to borrow sugars from other parts of the plant that are sources (fan leaves) to properly mature. Smaller flowers on the bottom part of the plant has more to do with how the plant allocates these sugars than it does how much light is penetrating to the bottom layer. The plant will send sugars to its apical tip first, then work it's way down. That is why you see larger buds on/around the meristem.

Pulling off healthy fan leaves to increase yield makes no sense to me. That would be like saying you're going to increase a homes energy capacity by removing solar panels.
 

cann.i.bliss

Well-Known Member
Ok here is some reading for you from another grower if you must insist on arguing the point


Defoliation in this thread is: The removal of leaf, by hand, to be rid of shading of any other buds, nodes, or growth in crowded situations.

This could be called a substitute to the removal of lower branches, another popular technique sometimes called lollipopping.

As described by k33ftr elsewhere: Defoliation encourages branching in vegging plants in the same way as nipping the leader. The benefit of this technique is that the leader is retained to continue to create branches. It also shortens nodal length creating a more compact specimen.

Of importance is: It also shortens nodal length creating a more compact specimen. More on that later.

Some growers have been enjoying yields in very compact plants at only 32" cubed above and beyond 12oz per plant using this technique. Again, over 12oz dry per plant on girls that are no taller than 32 inches and just as wide around.

Again from k33ftr: 3 decades of experience with this technique reveal that bud growth benefits more from light exposure than whether the corresponding fan leaf is present.

Yes he has 3 decades of experience using this technique. It's pretty hard to argue against that much experience. And it makes sense! Bud growth benefits more from light exposure than having a corresponding leaf present.

The idea is to allow any and all bud sites to fully produce. Unlike removing lower branches, we keep them and get plenty of light to them. We grow real buds not popcorn off these lower branches. This method allows light to penetrate to any and all of the bud sites for full benefit throughout the entire plant.

Some people may be shocked at just how few leaves are on these plants and how robust they actually are.
As one can see, there is an abundance of bud. It's a pretty even canopy. And clearly there are still leaves on the plants. We dont have any main colas sticking 6-8 inches or more above the rest of the bud sites either. That would mean much of the plant is getting less light while one small section (the main cola) is getting most of the light. Why not get most of the light to all of the plant?

Once we understand that we're trying to get the maximum amount of a limited light source in a limited area, we can begin to understand how and when to apply this technique and what other techniques are used in conjunction to make the whole process come through.

Prior to trying out this technique, please have your methods and strains down pat! This is important! This technique tends to work much better on indicas or indica dominants. Know your methods well. Have your ppm, ph, and atmosphere dialed in already. above all, don't over crowd your grow with plants! There are some that do use this in high count, fast flip to flower, small plant grows, but I'm talking about plants that get a real veg period. Say 4-6 weeks on avg.

The last thing you want to do is not have all your other peripheral methods down pat, have an issue, and blame a poor result on using this method when say, root rot due to high water temps was the real issue.

So we start this all out in veg. We begin our plant training to defoliation in veg. Once our girls are about 8" tall with about 6-8 pairs of true leaves we begin. We remove the fan leaves! You can top them also if you wish. If it's a natural shrubster type strain you may not want to. Grower choice. To be bit more specific, I remove all the leaves except the little cluster at the top.

In less than a week they will re-leaf. And boy will they ever! They will come back with a vengeance! More leaf, more nodes, more compact, in just one week. It's important to note, we only do this on good healthy plants. As an experienced grower you know if your plants are healthy and strong. With experience, you soon find you can tell by feel when you grab a branch or leaf if it's healthy and robust. Thus ready for the stripper pole and some leaf removal.
 

st0wandgrow

Well-Known Member
I won't argue this further. It's basic botany, but you can do as you please.

If you feel that fan leaves don't serve an important function, then try a little experiment. Take two clones from the same plant. Leave one alone to grow out, and completely strip the other of all leaves. See which one produces more at the end of the cycle.
 

cann.i.bliss

Well-Known Member
I won't argue this further. It's basic botany, but you can do as you please.

If you feel that fan leaves don't serve an important function, then try a little experiment. Take two clones from the same plant. Leave one alone to grow out, and completely strip the other of all leaves. See which one produces more at the end of the cycle.
As above it has already been proven that it increases bud size on lower nodes, but it all depends on your strains too but I wouldent strip all shade leaves just some to let more light in to lower bud sites but as stated above plenty of research has been done on it and growers that have 3decades of experience swear by it, like you said tho each to there own im not disputing your methods just saying there is no 'right way' to grow you have better results one way other have had better results other ways if it works for you stick to it dude. All the best
 

yktind

Well-Known Member
Guys there are plenty of other threads about defoliation. Maybe go back to trying to help this guy.

Personally I wouldn't do anything until it looks like it is need. No issues no reason to fix anything, yet.
 

Pangioti

Well-Known Member
Guys there are plenty of other threads about defoliation. Maybe go back to trying to help this guy.
Thanks, but honestly I really have been enjoying the debate and has prompted me to research this. What's interesting to me is how something like this should be a black and white issue but it's not. Seems like with cannabis there is a lot of exceptions and a lot of grey areas.

Personally I wouldn't do anything until it looks like it is need. No issues no reason to fix anything, yet.
This seems to be the consensus, the main thing that worries me at this point is that it stands a good chance that it's going to get real crowded. Seems like the worst that can happen is I get mold or something else that spreads to the others screws all my crop. I am leaning towards playing it safe and removing 4 of them, take the tops as clones and raise 6 in the tent and prepare for 4-5 to raise for the next round.

From what I have found in my research, it seems unrealistic to think I can pull off 10 plants in a 4x4x8 tent and even though I'm hearing to go for it, I feel it comes with a chunk of skepticism.

I still need to pull some clones, and have some lights and a aero cloner coming in on monday for my veg area so I hope to come to a decision by then. Until then, any more input is certainly welcomed and appreciated.
 

nova1992

Well-Known Member
Thanks, but honestly I really have been enjoying the debate and has prompted me to research this. What's interesting to me is how something like this should be a black and white issue but it's not. Seems like with cannabis there is a lot of exceptions and a lot of grey areas.



This seems to be the consensus, the main thing that worries me at this point is that it stands a good chance that it's going to get real crowded. Seems like the worst that can happen is I get mold or something else that spreads to the others screws all my crop. I am leaning towards playing it safe and removing 4 of them, take the tops as clones and raise 6 in the tent and prepare for 4-5 to raise for the next round.

From what I have found in my research, it seems unrealistic to think I can pull off 10 plants in a 4x4x8 tent and even though I'm hearing to go for it, I feel it comes with a chunk of skepticism.

I still need to pull some clones, and have some lights and a aero cloner coming in on monday for my veg area so I hope to come to a decision by then. Until then, any more input is certainly welcomed and appreciated.
Sounds like you are doing the right thing!
Dont do anything big until you learn how to grow proper, healthy plants, then go and experiment :)
 

Da Mann

Well-Known Member
In my little bit of experience I have found that with lots of leaves it acts like a buffer if things start to go south. Leaves tell you allot.I will remove lower leaves on a Indica if it is very bushy. I like lookin at leaves.
 

kmog33

Well-Known Member
Ok here is some reading for you from another grower if you must insist on arguing the point


Defoliation in this thread is: The removal of leaf, by hand, to be rid of shading of any other buds, nodes, or growth in crowded situations.

This could be called a substitute to the removal of lower branches, another popular technique sometimes called lollipopping.

As described by k33ftr elsewhere: Defoliation encourages branching in vegging plants in the same way as nipping the leader. The benefit of this technique is that the leader is retained to continue to create branches. It also shortens nodal length creating a more compact specimen.

Of importance is: It also shortens nodal length creating a more compact specimen. More on that later.

Some growers have been enjoying yields in very compact plants at only 32" cubed above and beyond 12oz per plant using this technique. Again, over 12oz dry per plant on girls that are no taller than 32 inches and just as wide around.

Again from k33ftr: 3 decades of experience with this technique reveal that bud growth benefits more from light exposure than whether the corresponding fan leaf is present.

Yes he has 3 decades of experience using this technique. It's pretty hard to argue against that much experience. And it makes sense! Bud growth benefits more from light exposure than having a corresponding leaf present.

The idea is to allow any and all bud sites to fully produce. Unlike removing lower branches, we keep them and get plenty of light to them. We grow real buds not popcorn off these lower branches. This method allows light to penetrate to any and all of the bud sites for full benefit throughout the entire plant.

Some people may be shocked at just how few leaves are on these plants and how robust they actually are.
As one can see, there is an abundance of bud. It's a pretty even canopy. And clearly there are still leaves on the plants. We dont have any main colas sticking 6-8 inches or more above the rest of the bud sites either. That would mean much of the plant is getting less light while one small section (the main cola) is getting most of the light. Why not get most of the light to all of the plant?

Once we understand that we're trying to get the maximum amount of a limited light source in a limited area, we can begin to understand how and when to apply this technique and what other techniques are used in conjunction to make the whole process come through.

Prior to trying out this technique, please have your methods and strains down pat! This is important! This technique tends to work much better on indicas or indica dominants. Know your methods well. Have your ppm, ph, and atmosphere dialed in already. above all, don't over crowd your grow with plants! There are some that do use this in high count, fast flip to flower, small plant grows, but I'm talking about plants that get a real veg period. Say 4-6 weeks on avg.

The last thing you want to do is not have all your other peripheral methods down pat, have an issue, and blame a poor result on using this method when say, root rot due to high water temps was the real issue.

So we start this all out in veg. We begin our plant training to defoliation in veg. Once our girls are about 8" tall with about 6-8 pairs of true leaves we begin. We remove the fan leaves! You can top them also if you wish. If it's a natural shrubster type strain you may not want to. Grower choice. To be bit more specific, I remove all the leaves except the little cluster at the top.

In less than a week they will re-leaf. And boy will they ever! They will come back with a vengeance! More leaf, more nodes, more compact, in just one week. It's important to note, we only do this on good healthy plants. As an experienced grower you know if your plants are healthy and strong. With experience, you soon find you can tell by feel when you grab a branch or leaf if it's healthy and robust. Thus ready for the stripper pole and some leaf removal.
This only talks about defoliation during veg right? Which i don't think anyone argues the benefits there or at least negative effects which are none as long as adequate time is given for the plant to recover. I defoliate for all kinds of reasons during veg but try to leave them alone during flower.

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cann.i.bliss

Well-Known Member
This only talks about defoliation during veg right? Which i don't think anyone argues the benefits there or at least negative effects which are none as long as adequate time is given for the plant to recover. I defoliate for all kinds of reasons during veg but try to leave them alone during flower.

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Umm yeah dude maybe re read it? It actually talks about how prunning during veg benefits flowering don't think anyone has talked about prunning during flowering originally I said if you were to remove some leaves leave it for a week before flowering, like we are basing this argument on defoliation during veg stage to Improve flowering...but everyone has there own opinions on the matter well that is most people just seem to just say Yeh Yeh its bad blah blah without even trying it or doing any research on the matter just going with the flow I think I am the only advocate here for lead prunning during veg but yeah I dunno dude I was only ever talking about prunning during veg not flowering
 

cann.i.bliss

Well-Known Member
This only talks about defoliation during veg right? Which i don't think anyone argues the benefits there or at least negative effects which are none as long as adequate time is given for the plant to recover. I defoliate for all kinds of reasons during veg but try to leave them alone during flower.

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Also every single person has argued the 'negative' effects of it lol haven't had anyone agree but I simply believe majority of people post haven't even tried it or ever read about it and just wana throw there 2cents in and go along with the rest of the crowd its the easy way to live life I guess :-)
 

kmog33

Well-Known Member
Umm yeah dude maybe re read it? It actually talks about how prunning during veg benefits flowering don't think anyone has talked about prunning during flowering originally I said if you were to remove some leaves leave it for a week before flowering, like we are basing this argument on defoliation during veg stage to Improve flowering...but everyone has there own opinions on the matter well that is most people just seem to just say Yeh Yeh its bad blah blah without even trying it or doing any research on the matter just going with the flow I think I am the only advocate here for lead prunning during veg but yeah I dunno dude I was only ever talking about prunning during veg not flowering
Oh. I was under the impression that the debate was about defoliation during flower and that article seems to be only during veg. Which defoliation durig veg makes sense, during flower, not so much.

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